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I agree. I never said it was any different. Infact, I think menus should say "Dead Baby Cow With Parmesan Cheese" instead of "Veal Parmigiana" I'm all for more realism in menus.
All I said was that I would not go and kill an animal myself, what's hard to understand about that? I know many people who eat meat but don't hunt. I just don't have the "will to kill" as it were.
All I said was that I would not go and kill an animal myself, what's hard to understand about that? I know many people who eat meat but don't hunt. I just don't have the "will to kill" as it were.
Nepfreak
Nepenthesian
LOL rattler, you got me there! I had no idea whatsoever that they were in antarctica! Now it's more interesting!
The rest of what I said still stands though, and yes, whales are in CITES appendix I. There was a proposal to downlist two species -- the minke and byrd's whale -- to appendix II, thereby raising bans of trading, which Greenpeace vehemently opposed and never did pass fortunately.
@the whole "killing vs. eating animals" thing, both of you are right IMO. I eat pork and steak, and yes, philosophically it's the exact same thing as killing a cow or pig, but less humane because of the holding pens and terrible conditions they're subjected to. If I'm sure if I followed a piglet from birth to slaughter and killed it myself I would never eat pork again. I just wouldn't have the stomach. So I fall in with prolly the majority of Americans who eat meat but just don't think about how the meat got on the aisle in stop&shop.
I was a bit blunt on the cultural heritage thing. I didn't mean to insult Japanese culture or tradition, sorry if I came across that way
The rest of what I said still stands though, and yes, whales are in CITES appendix I. There was a proposal to downlist two species -- the minke and byrd's whale -- to appendix II, thereby raising bans of trading, which Greenpeace vehemently opposed and never did pass fortunately.
@the whole "killing vs. eating animals" thing, both of you are right IMO. I eat pork and steak, and yes, philosophically it's the exact same thing as killing a cow or pig, but less humane because of the holding pens and terrible conditions they're subjected to. If I'm sure if I followed a piglet from birth to slaughter and killed it myself I would never eat pork again. I just wouldn't have the stomach. So I fall in with prolly the majority of Americans who eat meat but just don't think about how the meat got on the aisle in stop&shop.
I was a bit blunt on the cultural heritage thing. I didn't mean to insult Japanese culture or tradition, sorry if I came across that way
No need for apologies, I didn't mean to say that your mention of tradition was being derogatory or anything like that. My own ideas though probably would come off as being offensive to a Japanese whaler, by eschewing tradition for the sake of practicality and a long-term outlook.
The aspect of cultural traditions is always in my mind when thinking on these kinds of topics that claim a cultural significance or innate "need" to do something or other. However problematic it seems, we must remember that all "Traditions" (of any culture) are essentially ritualistic modes of thought (states of mind) handed down from older generations. Traditions initially serve their purpose, which is to unite a given culture in it's infancy. However, many traditions practiced today are not essential for the continued existence and health of a given culture. The Japanese for example, may eat just about any other fish from the seas, a ban on whaling alone does not truly effect the life and health of the Japanese as a people. Other than imparting a sense of disappointment over not not having the ability to fulfill a tradition. However much we wish to respect traditions, when bigger issues are at stake such as extinction of a species, I feel that we humans, have to forgo some of our idyllic fantasies to make a better world for all to potentially enjoy again both whales and whalers.
The aspect of cultural traditions is always in my mind when thinking on these kinds of topics that claim a cultural significance or innate "need" to do something or other. However problematic it seems, we must remember that all "Traditions" (of any culture) are essentially ritualistic modes of thought (states of mind) handed down from older generations. Traditions initially serve their purpose, which is to unite a given culture in it's infancy. However, many traditions practiced today are not essential for the continued existence and health of a given culture. The Japanese for example, may eat just about any other fish from the seas, a ban on whaling alone does not truly effect the life and health of the Japanese as a people. Other than imparting a sense of disappointment over not not having the ability to fulfill a tradition. However much we wish to respect traditions, when bigger issues are at stake such as extinction of a species, I feel that we humans, have to forgo some of our idyllic fantasies to make a better world for all to potentially enjoy again both whales and whalers.
Nepfreak
Nepenthesian
so is it violent or...?
Nepfreak
Nepenthesian
Botanicadenta
Nooblet
Ugh, still freaks me out. I realized I was a hippie when a kid stomped and smeared a beautiful praying mantis one day for no reason other than 'it was a bug'. I cried. Ever since then, people who are unnecessarily cruel to insects may find a trip rope made of pure natural hemp fibre in their doorways unexpectedly* 
Really, though, I have a sort of Greenpeace mentality of wrecking havoc on the un-empathic, and if for some reason I wanted to flee civilization it'd be a toss up between joining them or a monastery. I like cold and ship life, personally, So I think I'd be up for some fun-spirited whaler-paintballin'.
Like Swords, however, I was a vegetarian, but I eat animal products, but I can't ever eat a steak anymore. If I can identify any sort of musculature, I'm the kind of guy who will announce at the dinner table that 'this used to power legs that loved to romp in a field' or, 'these muscles drew in fresh air from a warm spring day once, I bet it was wonderful'. I try to limit my non-vegetarian foods to dairy, with occasional eggs, but meat only when other options are severely limited, or when I really don't feel like bugging waitstaff with peculiar orders given me and the GF's already lengthy list of dietary restrictions.
But that's my middle ground, I really don't think any whales should be killed personally, It's a bit excessive, especially with the dead zones in the ocean we've been discovering, we should probably put the ocean off-limits for a decade or two and stick to farm fishing for a bit.
Although, damn, I love my sea-bugs. I wonder if grasshoppers are anything like shrimp*?
*Unnecessarily, as in, killing them for the sake of killing them Aside from pest species, of course
Really, though, I have a sort of Greenpeace mentality of wrecking havoc on the un-empathic, and if for some reason I wanted to flee civilization it'd be a toss up between joining them or a monastery. I like cold and ship life, personally, So I think I'd be up for some fun-spirited whaler-paintballin'.
Like Swords, however, I was a vegetarian, but I eat animal products, but I can't ever eat a steak anymore. If I can identify any sort of musculature, I'm the kind of guy who will announce at the dinner table that 'this used to power legs that loved to romp in a field' or, 'these muscles drew in fresh air from a warm spring day once, I bet it was wonderful'. I try to limit my non-vegetarian foods to dairy, with occasional eggs, but meat only when other options are severely limited, or when I really don't feel like bugging waitstaff with peculiar orders given me and the GF's already lengthy list of dietary restrictions.
But that's my middle ground, I really don't think any whales should be killed personally, It's a bit excessive, especially with the dead zones in the ocean we've been discovering, we should probably put the ocean off-limits for a decade or two and stick to farm fishing for a bit.
Although, damn, I love my sea-bugs. I wonder if grasshoppers are anything like shrimp*?
*Unnecessarily, as in, killing them for the sake of killing them
Aside from pest species, of course
Botanicadenta
Nooblet
hmmmm! Do I detect an attempt to incite me? Heh, yeah, my post seems pretty contradictory, But I'm more than aware that animals eating animals is a part of nature and has been for millions of years, and while I respect life, I just make sure I don't try and invert the food pyramid and mistake beef for grains.
im far from mistaking beef for grain......my backyard is slowly turning into a mini orchard and veggie garden.....i do love fresh baked bread......however push comes to shove its easier to keep a healthy weight if i push away the pasta and take a bigger portion of chicken or beef or deer for dinner.....i also tend to feel better...do i need veggies and such? defiantly......but there is nothing inherently cruel by eating meat.........
That's true in a completely "natural" or "Darwinist" sense, many species are carnivores (like our fave plants) but we humans also have a certain type of consciousness which causes conflict to our "natural selves" and insipres some of us to question damn near everything. Often to the bewilderment of others around us! lol! For myself all sorts of factors come into play not just the idea that meat in and of itself is cruel. It may be that it's easy to ignore in some people who accept "tradition" or "instinct" on face value but for others of us, every day brings new philosophical challenges which we feel a need to work out and continually refine for ourselves.
Yeah, the show did show some whale violence but mainly it was kinda similar to The Greatest Catch or whatever that commercial fishing show is on Discovery. Except instead of fishermen being interviewed it's "modern day pirates" going after whalers instead of new world gold smugglers. I like that pirate title it's sorta romantic. The anti-whalers ship is named the Steve Irwin, I wondered how he'd feel about that but they showed his wife dedicating the ship so apparently she condones it. The guy from Sea Shepherd was kicked outta GreenPeace for being more into doing actual strikes than just floating around holding up signs. There can be no change without chaos.
I don't even kill the occasional bugs that sneak into the house in summer, I catch them in a jar, look at them good, sometimes take pics if it's a weird one and then and put 'em outside. Unless the cats get them first... I just consider that nature at work!
swords push comes to shove ive got no issues with true vegans.......so long as they dont harp on me for eating meat.......i take issue with those that think they are "being kind to animals" yet only do it when its convenient......or worse claim eating eggs, fish and shellfish is fine but if its got fur its bad.....killing an animal is killing an animal, weither its an egg, shrimp, cow or whale....
I'm not one to go after anyone for their eating habits. I don't care for the Vegan Reich people myself (there was even a band called that years ago) who slap burgers outta people's hands, start fights in restaurants, etc. That sort of thing is idiocy disguised as ideology. However, the "style" of ones vegetarianism is also a personal choice, vegetarian, vegan, etc. It's all in what one can justify to ones self (like much of life) but when it interferes with someone else's meal, that's where I feel personal belief ends and enforcement of your beliefs on others begins.
However, I do look at Whaling in a rather different light than simple meat eating in regards to the looming specter of extinction. At this time, the extinction or survival of these whales is a choice which we humans are able to make on their behalf, the whales themselves are powerless to stop us if we decide "thumbs down". With effective conservation efforts enacted on their behalf, perhaps a sustainable population would develop over time and limited hunting could be allowed while we continue to contemplate the philosophical implications of killing the more intelligent animals of the sea. Extinction is a more important issue than tradition or philosophy. If there are no whales worrying about tradition or right / wrong won't make a bit of difference.
However, I do look at Whaling in a rather different light than simple meat eating in regards to the looming specter of extinction. At this time, the extinction or survival of these whales is a choice which we humans are able to make on their behalf, the whales themselves are powerless to stop us if we decide "thumbs down". With effective conservation efforts enacted on their behalf, perhaps a sustainable population would develop over time and limited hunting could be allowed while we continue to contemplate the philosophical implications of killing the more intelligent animals of the sea. Extinction is a more important issue than tradition or philosophy. If there are no whales worrying about tradition or right / wrong won't make a bit of difference.
Botanicadenta
Nooblet
Heh, yep, figured as much. I'm not a vegetarian anymore, though, which I thought I had indicated. When you work somewhere you have to live at 72 hours at a time and most of what you get are institutional chicken strips to eat, well, it's hard to have preferences
Push comes to shove, however, and I have a choice in the matter, I prefer to not eat anything that blinks, that's my rule, heh.
EDIT: My GF wanted to know what kind of ____tarian that would be, so I looked it up.
If my usage of latin it correct, it would be apalpebraltarian
Stick that in your hat
Push comes to shove, however, and I have a choice in the matter, I prefer to not eat anything that blinks, that's my rule, heh.
EDIT: My GF wanted to know what kind of ____tarian that would be, so I looked it up.
If my usage of latin it correct, it would be apalpebraltarian
Stick that in your hat
I prefer to think of it as the loophole of the law.
Living in the US we all know plenty about how loopholes work! lol!
It appears to me that the law is backwards. To eliminate this sort of thing the logical proposal would be that the meat of "research whales" should not be allowed for sale. To let it be dropped back into the sea after this "vital research" is conducted will take all the wind out of the profiteers sails essentially overnight .
Living in the US we all know plenty about how loopholes work! lol!
It appears to me that the law is backwards. To eliminate this sort of thing the logical proposal would be that the meat of "research whales" should not be allowed for sale. To let it be dropped back into the sea after this "vital research" is conducted will take all the wind out of the profiteers sails essentially overnight .
