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Special Comment: Proposition 8

  • Thread starter DrWurm
  • Start date
  • #21
And out of curiosity:

Is there anyone out there who isn't familiar with the Proposition 8? We're going on the premise that everyone has heard of it, is that a fair assumption? I'm not sure how much water it's stirred outside of Cali (I assume it's a fair amount considering how many people know about it.) Anyone need a rundown?

Proposition Eight was the most expensive proposition ever submitted to the voters. Millions were spent on both sides of the issue and it received plenty of national news coverage -- from Santa Cruz, CA (my hometown) to New York -- even Brooklyn. Even friends of mine overseas were following it . . .
 
  • #22
The whole argument about cancer research was a joke. It can be played both ways thus is completely irrelevant.
Look guys, I am not saying inequality is right, or they way it should be. I'm just saying its the way things are, and it'll never change. Of course children playing together feel equal, but then they grow up and grow apart and some look down on others. I seriously doubt it'll ever change.
 
  • #23
I'm just saying its the way things are, and it'll never change.

With that sort of defeatist attitude, it won't. That's for sure.

On the other hand, they also said we'd never split the atom.

Look, even if a goal, in it's purest form, seems unattainable, why should still not reach for it?

I strive to be the perfect martial artist. That is unattainable. No one is perfect. However, it doesn't stop me from practicing and getting better.

So true equality (which, IMHO, would mean it exists in the hearts of all) may not ever be reached because humans are flawed.....we may at least still reach LEGAL equality, where all are protected equally under the law. That IS an attainable goal.
 
  • #24
Ok guys.
After receiving a barrage of angry pms, I think there has been a misunderstanding.
When I said that Christianity does not stand against killing, I did not mean that christians can just go around killing anyone they please. The comment was in response to the guy in the video saying "If your God is love, then spread the love and happiness" or something like that.
What I was saying is that even though God is love, it does not mean "let everyone do what makes them happy". There must be boundaries.
Raping children makes pedophiles happy. So is it ok? Should be just let them? I bet it brings a lot of joy into their hearts, but that does not make it right!
Killing makes murderers happy. So should we just let them?
Inflicting pain onto others makes sadists happy....

Equality is an illusion. A pleasant, but unattainable goal.
If everyone was equal, there would be complete anarchy. Law was made by people equal to me, so why should I conform to it if it is equal to my own ideals? Or is it higher than me? That makes us unequal. Or why listen to my boss? He is just the same as I am. See, there has to be hierarchy in everything or else there will be nothing.
We are born equal, but what we grow up to be is not. One grows up to be MD, and another - a drug addicted rapist. How equal were they as babies, and how equal are they when they are 40?
 
  • #25
Dimka,
Its not up to your religion to decide what is best for everyone else. Go to church, live a monastic life, do whatever you want, but leave it out of other peoples lives. Religion as an excuse to opress people is dead religion, and I have no problem challenging those who practice it.
I live in the only state where it's legal for gay couples to marry, and it truly would affect me on a very personal level if it were illegalized, even though I'm straight. The best teacher I've ever had is gay and has a legal partner. My brother's best freind has 2 moms. You're trying to convince me that they are somehow not worth defending? That because in any other state they would be "unequal" and illegal, I shouldn't try to help them because in the end everything will still be unjust anyway? That's just plain laziness.
To me, most religion throughout history seems to be little more than a tool for oppression and the sustanance of power for individuals.
I think Joseph II put it nicely:
"The state...is the greatest good for the greatest number."

EDIT: In response to your new post: If everyone were TOTALLY equal, we wouldn't really need government, because we'd all get along. Government exists only for the people, to keep them safe.
Also, probably everyone is never going to be economically/socially equal. There will always be people who are better off than others, and people who take charge. Thats just human nature. I'm not arguing for socialism here, although I think that aspects of it can be adopted very successfuly (I'll resist going into that). But people shouldn't be put down because of something they can't change, like their skin color or sexual orientation. Can't you agree with me on that last sentance? It seems so basic...
 
  • #26
I work with gays (catering, full of them, chefs, florists, caterers, guests) and we've no problem discussing the issues.
They know what I think about it and in response, they hit on me.
Even though I have such radical negative views on them, that does not stop me from interacting with them as with normal people. We joke around and laugh about it, while still retaining our points of view.
Besides, how is my religion an issue in this?
I am simply disproving the guy in the video. It still makes me smile that he used writings of a womanizer who lived hundreds of years ago in an extremely anti-gay society to defend gay marriage.
Its like using Hitler's, Lenin's or Marx' writing and actions to create a society of universal equality and happiness.
 
  • #27
This is why I voted yes on prop 8

This is why I voted yes on prop 8.

Reason 1:I'm a christian and am perfectly well aware that the Bible in numerous passages and explicitly condemns homosexuality. I cannot in good conscience vote for something I believe wholeheartedly is wrong.

If this is offensive to some, then those of you who disagree should at least grant us Christians that we are merely being faithful to our God. I do not hate homosexuals. I have no desire to see them suffer. But I will not honor them above my God.

Reason 2:I do not want myself, my fellow Christians, or my descendants to experience persecution on account of gay marriage.

If gay marriage passes then a gay couple could come to my church, demand that my pastor marry them, and then sue the church when he refuses. My church could then lose its tax exempt status. Weak argument? It violates freedom of religion right? Problem is that in California we have too many far left judges that legislate from the bench. They would be only to eager to "defend" gay rights, even at the expense of our freedom of religion. Think this would never happen? Let us not forget that the homosexual agenda is well funded and plenty militant too.

Another big problem would be what my children are taught in school. California teachers can, and most without a doubt would, teach my kids in public school that gay marriage is okay. And then if gay marriage passes in California I could do nothing to stop it nor could I have them be removed from class before their indoctrination begins.(This has already happened in Massachussetts BTW) In fact my 7 year old nephew's teacher taught him that gay marriage was okay(just prior to prop 8 passing). If you knew my nephew's history of abuse and problems with his behavior in inappropriate touching you would have to concede that my sister had a valid complaint when in a school IEP meeting she complained about how this was a really bad and destructive thing for him to hear.
 
  • #28
hahaha "homosexual agenda" there is no point reading past that, the "homosexual agenda" is baseless fear-mongering in its most laughable form.

My gay uncle's agenda is to go to work monday to friday, and do shopping on the weekend, sometimes kicking back with some fruity drinks, and always ready to help us out with whatever we might need at any given time.
 
  • #29
Ok guys.
After receiving a barrage of angry pms, I think there has been a misunderstanding.

Imagine my surprise that some people did not interpret your recent posts as constructive discussion and debate.

xvart.
 
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  • #30
Mabuden how to explain how the No on Prop 8 received so much funding if there is no "homosexual agenda?"
 
  • #31
"Christianity, Judaism and Islam all state there are different "levels of society" if you will, in heaven and hell.
So why should everything be on the same level here? Especially this, which is against the very nature of this world! This is a n abomination tarnishing the moral fabric of the society."
I'm not gonna worry about it since the post was deleted. But that is what I was referring to by "Your religion."
@I don't like form:
I'm not going to argue with you by repeating what I already said. However, I'm very sorry to hear about your nephew. Sounds like the teacher had issues entirely apart from him being pro-gay.
I haven't noticed any indoctrination in any of the MA schools I've been to.
 
  • #32
Imagine my surprise that some people did not interpret your recent posts as constructive discussion and debate.

xvart.

I think it is because majority of them has intelligence level below a wilted sunflower.
 
  • #33
I think it is because majority of them has intelligence level below a wilted sunflower.

Insults will not be tolerated. You have been warned
 
  • #34
idontlikeform how did it receive so much anti funding if there ain't a bunch of gay-fearing haters out there??

Seriously, if that same BS were happening here, I would be solidly behind the "no" side. For a small monthly fee I can offer you compelling proof of my heterosexuality :D But I can see NO actual reason based on ANY fact for bannnig gay people from getting hitched- unless you want to cite religion, which is just a bunch of stuff made up by folks anyways, I'm talkin empirical evidence here.

With nothing but archaic ideologies on the "yes" side and solid actual reality on the "no" side, I would do whatever I could to be on the reality side
 
  • #35
If by homosexual agenda, you mean equality, yes there is a homosexual agenda. The courts already ruled that no church can be forced to marry a couple, be them gay or products of divorce. Religious marriage means nothing to the government. It is a practice done by an independent group, so they can do whatever they please.

As far as teaching gay marriage in schools, before anything of the sort can be taught in schools, a consent slip is sent home to parents with all the curriculum and a choice of whether or not they want their child to attend. Yes-on-8 used the 1st grader lesbian wedding of their teacher as "proof" of this, except 2 parents opted their kids out and the trip was parent proposed.

Yes, some teachers out their may break the rules. That is to the fault of the teachers. Just because there is a potential to steal things does not make everyone a thief.

As for religion, as I've said before: leave your God at home when you vote. When you let your religious beliefs influence how government functions, you undermine the intent of the constitution. Every time you let religion into politics, we are taken one step back from becoming the land of freedom, towards being a land like Iraq. Islam does not permit women to show much (if any) skin, and therefore, it was written into law that it was illegal.

Living in America means we uphold America's values first, not the Bible's. That's the price you pay to live here, you must accept other people's lives.
 
  • #36
As for religion, as I've said before: leave your God at home when you vote. When you let your religious beliefs influence how government functions, you undermine the intent of the constitution. Every time you let religion into politics, we are taken one step back from becoming the land of freedom, towards being a land like Iraq. Islam does not permit women to show much (if any) skin, and therefore, it was written into law that it was illegal.

Living in America means we uphold America's values first, not the Bible's.
Thank you!!!!!!
 
  • #37
That reminds me of an incident in Saudi Arabia that happened couple of months ago.
A groom was sentenced to 3 months in prison and public punishment (I think it was being tied to a post and lashed with whips) for coming to the female side of his wedding party (men and women are separate with a "wall" between the sides).
However, there are no religious debates there. Any religion but Islam is banned there.
America's values were based on Bible, but that was long time ago and values changed. They are now "Whatever! I do what I want!"
The government is still tied by religious values.
Soviet Union on the other hand, was completely religion-less country, and look how good it worked out.
 
  • #38
Soviet Union on the other hand, was completely religion-less country, and look how good it worked out.

One time a girl I knew got a math problem wrong. All girls are bad at math.

Correlation =/= causation.
 
  • #39
DrWurm, I believe the term you are looking for is post hoc ergo propter hoc :)

It is such a wonderfully flawed way to argue anything.
 
  • #40
DrWurm, I believe the term you are looking for is post hoc ergo propter hoc :)

Nah, I was looking for someone with a fancy shmancy degree to spew latin at me XD
 
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