Calling all Mycorrhizal Users

[obregon562]

Hey TF,

Those of you (cough cough Av ) who use mycorrhizal fungi...

What brand do you use? How do you innoculate the soil? What genera do you use it on? Whats your application rate (once a month, once every two months...)? How much do you use?

Ive been very persuaded by some of the with/without pics ive seen in veggie forums and stuff, and i know Av's plants are insanely beautiful, so i wanna take a crack with this stuff. Any and all help is greatly appriciated!

Thanks!
Frankie

P.S. How does this stuff compared to trichoderma? Is that what Av uses? Im so confuzed lol.

 

[F R e N c H 3 z]

Hi Frankie,

I use Trichoderma T-22 strain. I inoculate my soil when i'm mixing it or if it's too late for that I mix with water and top water. I havent seen the vegetable kind of results but i did have a sundew and Nep really take off.
Can I link the two? No, but it certainly does no harm and Trichoderma is known to prey on other types of fungi. If you're looking for proof I cant say i have or know of any but it's done no harm to a single plant or seedling I have.

 

[Not a Number]

Butch uses the Trichoderma products from Ampacbiotech.net.

I've tried it and have had more problems with fungus on my Cephalotus than before. YMMV. I know other LACPS members that sneer at the stuff and had to use extreme measures to get rid of it.

I come to find out that Michael Lu sprays his Cephalotus once a month with a sulfur based fungicide. If you've ever seen his Cephalotus it must work well for him.

 

[RL7836]

Those of you (cough cough Av ) who use mycorrhizal fungi...

I used something called Eco-Max several years ago based on the recommendation of another grower. Never saw any discernible difference. Currently use a cocktail of 3 different Trichoderma products (one that also has some beneficial bacteria). For me, the jury's still out on Tricho products but I'm hopeful.....

I've tried it and have had more problems with fungus on my Cephalotus than before. YMMV. I know other LACPS members that sneer at the stuff and had to use extreme measures to get rid of it.

Wow - this is the 1st I've heard of negative feedback. Very interesting.

I come to find out that Michael Lu sprays his Cephalotus once a month with a sulfur based fungicide. If you've ever seen his Cephalotus it must work well for him.

In general, this is a procedure for creating super bugs that are resistant to a specific chemical.**

Based on my personal experience with antibiotics and reading about the issues humans now have with the immune system fighting itself, I'm growing more & more reluctant to rely on chemical eradication procedures as a cure-all.*** I often wondered why natural CP populations didn't have the fungal issues that are seen by growers. Av & his allegiance to Tricho gave me my 1st possible explanation for this discrepancy between captivity & nature.

While I believe the jury is still out (as mentioned above), this avenue of prevention is the 1st that seems to have a rationale built on something other than chemical-industry marketing, hot air or fertile imaginations....

... and while I also still believe that antibiotics & other chemical countermeasures have their place (duh!), I'm also coming to realize that their use has potential significant downsides - among them - elimination of symbiotic / synergistic organisms & possible resistance to control mechanisms...

All the best,
R


** - This has been drilled into me from:
- years working in pharmaceutical industry
- wife is a nurse
- wife's grandmother was a disease specialist who specialized in drug resistance
- - - Yikes!

*** - Every spring the aphids attack our red honeysuckle vine which grows on our deck step railings (who's blooms are loved by hummingbirds). Each year I tried to kill them - typically with the Dawn / cooking oil / water spray mix advocated by many. Each year I was frustrated how far into the summer the aphids persisted before being consumed by ladybug larvae. Finally, I got tired & allowed nature to take it's course. The ladybug larvae appeared earlier & in greater numbers & the aphids were eradicated faster than any year when I 'helped'

Soap box / pontification mode: OFF

 

[Pyro]

I used something called Eco-Max several years ago based on the recommendation of another grower. Never saw any discernible difference. Currently use a cocktail of 3 different Trichoderma products (one that also has some beneficial bacteria). For me, the jury's still out on Tricho products but I'm hopeful.....

I used the same triple cocktail last year on my Sarrs and it was the first year I did not get a single case of the dreaded rhizome melt. Not conclusive by any means but a point in its favor for me.

 

[Fryster]

Is there a name for that "dreaded rhizome melt"??

I lost most of my Sarr collection this winter due to a powdery-white mold that grows inside the rhizome underneath the base of the leaves/stalks.

 

[Not a Number]

http://icps.proboards105.com/index.cgi?board=sarracenia&action=display&thread=900&page=1#6889

 

[herenorthere]

I agree with Ron about the risk of regularly spraying the same thing. The major benefit of monthly sulfur spraying might be that it acidifies the growing medium or maybe that the plants wanted more sulfur in their diet. But if a disease ever strikes, it probably won't be fazed by sulfur.

As for aphids, the way to help them run amok is to eliminate their predators. Aphid problems disappeared when my community garden went organic because people weren't killing all the predators anymore. I cure aphid problems on my main plum tree by putting a ring of Tanglefoot around the trunk, which keeps ants off they tree. Otherwise, ants attack the ladybug larvae that keep aphids under control. A quick way to eliminate an infestation of aphids or whatever on a potted plant is to stick it in a dense patch of weeds or unsprayed, thickly planted flower bed or garden (during the growing season, of course). The aphids will be gone within a couple days. Aphids teach us that it is better to work with the ecosystem than to fight against it.

 

[Tamlin Dawnstar]

When you say mycorhizal, do oyu mean where the fungi actually interacts with a plants root hairs, and there is a symbiotic relationship in the exchange of nutirients? I have long thought this issue was overlooked by growers and maybe why some CP are so difficult to grow outside of habitat. I think trichoderma though is simply a predatory fungus. I never used it.

My growing Zen says that nothing added over time can lead to lasting good. Either by breeding stronger antagonists or by offering a clean stage for a new species attack, the compensation will fail eventually.

My Zen isn't 100 per cent so keep on experimenting. Hey, whatever happened to that kid growing VFT's in peanut butter?

 

[RL7836]

I think trichoderma though is simply a predatory fungus.

Hi William, Great to see you back!! While most literature agrees with your statement, Av has posted links to some studies (here & ICPS forums iirc) that have shown very significant increases in root development on plants treated w/ Tricho - so it 'appears' that there are some other things going on symbiotically with at least some plants, in addition to it's predatory function .... Here's one... & here's another thread with quite a few posts & links...

 

[Av8tor1]

this may be the one Ron is referring too,

sorry, only got a sec so didnt go to the link... things are very stressful and hectic at the moment for me personally and professionally

forgive my absence pls

Av




Great research paper on Trichoderma

Abstract:
Nature Reviews Microbiology 2, 43-56 (January 2004) | doi:10.1038/nrmicro797


Trichoderma species — opportunistic, avirulent plant symbionts
Gary E. Harman1, Charles R. Howell2, Ada Viterbo3, Ilan Chet3 & Matteo Lorito

Trichoderma spp. are free-living fungi that are common in soil and root ecosystems. Recent discoveries show that they are opportunistic, avirulent plant symbionts, as well as being parasites of other fungi. At least some strains establish robust and long-lasting colonizations of root surfaces and penetrate into the epidermis and a few cells below this level. They produce or release a variety of compounds that induce localized or systemic resistance responses, and this explains their lack of pathogenicity to plants. These root–microorganism associations cause substantial changes to the plant proteome and metabolism. Plants are protected from numerous classes of plant pathogen by responses that are similar to systemic acquired resistance and rhizobacteria-induced systemic resistance. Root colonization by Trichoderma spp. also frequently enhances root growth and development, crop productivity, resistance to abiotic stresses and the uptake and use of nutrients.


Author affiliations
Departments of Horticultural Sciences and Plant Pathology, Cornell University, Geneva, New York 14456, USA.
USDA/ARS, SPARC, College Station, Texas 77845, USA.
Weizmann Institute, Rehovot 76100, Israel.
Dipartimento di Arboricoltura, Botanica e Patologia Vegetale, Universita degli Studi di Napoli Federico II, and Istituto CNR-IPP, 100-80055 Portici, Italy.

http://www.weizmann.ac.il/Biological_Chemistry/scientist/Chet/NR.pdf

 

[jonnyq]

Butch uses the Trichoderma products from Ampacbiotech.net.

I've tried it and have had more problems with fungus on my Cephalotus than before. YMMV. I know other LACPS members that sneer at the stuff and had to use extreme measures to get rid of it.

Having read about the joys of Trichoderma, I purchased a trichoderma/mycorrhizae powder off of eBay (once ounce), which I diluted in 1 gallon of distilled water, and put into a spray bottle... As a test case, I have two small 2" pots containing VFT seedlings, growing on a sunny windowsill (until the avg temps here increase.)

I sprayed the soil of one pot with the trichoderma/mycorrhizal solution, and the other I did not. The VFTs in the one that I sprayed are all dying... The VFT seedlings in the one that I didn't spray are flourishing.

Now, this is barely proof of anything, other than 1) I bought a bad brand/batch of tricho/myco, 2) I used it incorrectly, 3) I probably shouldn't have used it on seedlings (?), or 4) there are other factors that came into play that I haven't realized yet.

Still, I just thought it might be worth mentioning at least one other cautionary tale...

(I'm a little concerned because I previously laid down some D. palacea ssp. roseana gemmae on some peat/sand that I inoculated with this solution... If the gemmae do well, I'll post that here as well.)

 

[RL7836]

... I purchased a trichoderma/mycorrhizae powder off of eBay

Any more details on the specific stuff you purchased?

 

[Not a Number]

Is spraying a recommended method of application?

Was your control pot (untreated) sufficiently isolated and you took precautions (such as washing hands etc.) that there was little chance of "contamination"?

However it would be interesting to see the results of more control tests like this. Unfortunately I doubt if the majority of growers out there have sufficient resources (space mainly) to provide sufficient isolation to prevent contamination of the control group with nearly identical growing conditions.

Anyway, as with anything, Your Mileage May Vary.

 

[Av8tor1]

Any more details on the specific stuff you purchased?

Please post any details you have available.... there are many strains of trichoderma and a greater number of products with varying inerts being used. Some of which are probably not Cp safe.
Likewise, some combinations of biologicals are not compatable.

If possible...
What is the name of the product?
What strains does the product contain?
What inerts are used?
Spore count of possible?
Age or product? (example: rootsheild has a 6 month shelf life)
Any other products used (ferts etc)

Is spraying a recommended method of application?

Was your control pot (untreated) sufficiently isolated and you took precautions (such as washing hands etc.) that there was little chance of "contamination"?

However it would be interesting to see the results of more control tests like this. Unfortunately I doubt if the majority of growers out there have sufficient resources (space mainly) to provide sufficient isolation to prevent contamination of the control group with nearly identical growing conditions.

Anyway, as with anything, Your Mileage May Vary.

As always, Nan speaks the truth...

 

[dionae]

CPs have non-mycorrhizal roots. I'll try and dig up a link for you all. Myco has no effect on CPs . Idk about trichoderma. Haven't been able to find anything on CPs and trichoderma.

---------- Post added at 07:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 PM ----------

http://mycorrhizas.info/nmplants.html

Go down the list to droseraceae on the NM list

 

[Av8tor1]

Dionae,

Two totally different things... Trichoderma physically coils around the pathogen and starts to dissolve the cell walls. (in addition to other phyto-antagonistic and plant beneficial traits)

( Ive read the paper you are referring too, and it sort of lumps all cp's together, too broad of a statement IMHO.... As an example the roots of heliamphora and cephalotus differ tremendously from most nepenthes)

Cephalotus gets over 70% of nutrient ions from its roots whereas some other cp species gets less then 20%

The roots of carnivorous plants
Wolfram Adlassnig1, Marianne Peroutka1, Hans Lambers2 & Irene K. Lichtscheidl1,3
1Institute of Ecology and Conservation Biology, University of Vienna, Althanstrasse 14, 1090 Vienna,
Austria. 2School of Plant Biology, Faculty of Natural and Agricultural Sciences, The University of
Western Australia, Crawley WA 6009, Australia. 3Corresponding author*
Received 30 April 2004. Accepted in revised form 31 August 2004

Look at the microphotogrpahy images of the coiling in the next two research papers

TRICHODERMA SPECIES —
OPPORTUNISTIC,AVIRULENT
PLANT SYMBIONTS

In Vivo Study of Trichoderma-Pathogen-Plant Interactions, Using
Constitutive and Inducible Green Fluorescent Protein
Reporter Systems

Interaction of Ammonium, Glucose, and Chitin Regulates the
Expression of Cell Wall-Degrading Enzymes in
Trichoderma atroviride Strain P1

W. Schulze á E.D. Schulze á J.S. Pate á A.N. Gillison
The nitrogen supply from soils and insects during growth
of the pitcher plants Nepenthes mirabilis, Cephalotus follicularis
and Darlingtonia californica

Ecophysiological characterization of carnivorous plant roots:
oxygen fluxes, respiration, and water exudation
L. ADAMEC
Section of Plant Ecology, Institute of Botany, Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic,
Dukelská 135, CZ-37982 Třeboň, Czech Republic

Leaf absorption of mineral nutrients in carnivorous plants
stimulates root nutrient uptake
Lubomír Adamec
Institute of Botany of the Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic, Section of Plant Ecology, Dukelská 135, CZ-379 82 Trebonˇ , Czech Republic

Mineral Nutrition of Carnivorous Plants - A Review
Lubomír ADAMEC
Adamec L., 1997. Mineral nutrition of carnivorous plants: A review. Bot. Rev. 63: 273-299.
Institute of Botany of the Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic, Section of Plant Ecology, Dukelská 145, CZ-379 82 Třeboň, Czech Republic; fax 0042-333-721136


I have more research but cant post links due to copyright issues.... pm me if you want them

 

[dionae]

Let me read over these for the next few days and i'll reply then.

Btw, I know trich and myco are different. I was just saying I cant find anything on trich and CPs specifically. The link I left above was the only thing I could find on CPs and Myco and if you look closely they actually have the CPs in seperate families-Droseraceae, Drosophyllaceae, Lentibulariaceae, Nepenthaceae and Sarraceniaceae.

I'd still like to read any studies done on CPs and beneficial fungi specifically. If you ever run across any could you pls PM me links? Thanks for the reads!

 

[Av8tor1]

Yes, but the author makes broad statements such as:

The nutritional functions of roots are replaced by insect traps in these species, so mycorrhizas have become redundant

but then he goes on to say:

Less is known about mycorrhizas of insectivorous plants with "pitfall traps" where insects are digested (Sarracenia, Darlingtonia, Nepenthes, etc.), but it is expected they primarily obtain nutrients by carnivory. The unique Western Australian carnivorous plants Cephalotis follicularis (Cephalotaceae) and Byblis spp. (Byblidaceae), which are illustrated below, are also likely to be NM.

The more recent research has shown its not a case of either/or... but a cse of both and with a great deal of variance among species.

I know of no specific trich/cp studies.... but IMHO since the trich is also attacking the pahtogen directly, I dont see where this would be a major criteria unless the pathogen was unique to cp's.

but that is just my humble opinion and nothing more

as Nan so wisely stated, your milage may vary

Av

 

[EdaxFlamma]

I'm working with the USDA involving the benefits of mycorrhizal infections in Vaccinium (cranberry, blueberry etc) and we tested a decent number of commercially inoculum and found that many of the fungi present weren't what they claimed on the package. Whether due to their method of packaging, quality control or some other reason, there were all kinds of different fungi in the mixes. If you have the change to plate some out you might be surprised. I personally am pretty skeptical unless I've isolated it myself and even then my skills and the mycorrhizae business in general are still so muddy I don't think I'd subject my plants to something like that.

Now wouldn't it be great if we had someone go out and isolate mycorrhizae from the roots of some CPs and get a specialized mix just for us... I can keep dreaming haha.