Ethical/legal question

[bladespark]

I suspect the answer is going to be "maybe ethical but certainly not legal" but I figured I should ask the people who would know.

I happen to know of the location of a healthy, thriving population of a carnivorous plant in the wild.

They are not on my property. I'm pretty sure the land they are on is owned by the government, local, state or federal.

I would never consider illegally collecting a plant. However, I also happen to know when they're most likely to be in seed...

Would harvesting seeds be ethical? I feel it probably is, as it's not harming the plants in any way, they produce more seed than could possibly grow there with the area already saturated with established adult plants. So I don't think I'd feel any guilt about it.

But would it be legal? I suspect it isn't, but I really am not familiar with what laws might apply. If it is illegal, exactly how illegal is it?

I don't know if I'll ever actually do it, but if the temptation gets too great, I'd like to be at least vaguely familiar with the possible consequences. Any input appreciated. Any drama, really not, please don't start flaming me or anybody else over this.

Thanks!

 

[swords]

It's a funny conundrum. CP and Orchid people always claim to say "no way" to unpermitted seed collecting while cacti/succulent people are fine with collection of only a single seed pod for personal use. All three groups frown on wild-collected plants. So whether it's legal or not only matters if you get caught in the field (probably incurring minimal fines). It's international smuggling that really gets one into the steep waters with the feds. legality is a risk only you can be willing to take, maybe Ozzy can tell us about the punishments doled out to those who would transgress wild CP habitats... Do they get the chair or the AK-47!? (As usual I'm just being silly, not intending to flame)

The ethical aspects is really all up to you and it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks cos they won't know where your plant came from unless you tell them. What do YOU think about someone collecting seed in the wild for personal use, can you live with having done it? Collecting seed for sale is obviously a very different question entirely.

 

[herenorthere]

You'd be taking property, whether public or private, and might raise trespass issues too. That said, you knew that already. In my opinion, and not representing anyone or anything else's opinion, it's ethical to take a small amount of seeds if you distribute seeds around the area of the plants. Although I think it's ethical, it's illegal without the landowner's permission, even if not enforced.

CP seeds don't spread that easily, so scatter some seeds in other promising spots near the plant. If you also carry out some trash and don't trample everything while there, I feel you will have done the plant and it's environment a favor. But others disagree with good justification and and I respect their opinion, even though I don't agree with them.

 

[Ant]

I say leave the rare plants untouched unless they are doomed from the beginning. If they are very healthy and numerous, only collect 1 seed pod, and if you can return some of the seed produce by the seed you took back to the site. (Also don't cross the location specific plant with another plant that is not location specific or from another location.)

 

[Capensis]

Maybe ethical, but certainly not legal.



Heh, I don't know. It depends, what are they? Pings, dews, VFTs, Sarracenias?

 

[cmm889]

it is illegal, and rightfully so.

I mean the floodgates would open up if we said... everyone can take just a bit and then its not a big deal

i mean if I knew the particular batch of wild cp's and helped seed the area and took a couple for myself for non sale reasons I know I woudlnt feel "bad" for having done it, especially when I spread around the plants or cuttings from the plants I would potentially get from the seeds...

however... its only a problem when it becomes widespread, its not about one person doing it to one natural location the concern is when a ton of " one persons " come and take their own " tiny amount "

we all understand where I'm going with this...so yeah, in my opinion there needs to be rules on it, but will one persons collection do harmful damage? probably not..

 

[adrian]

Ethical...maybe. One of my favorite tests for how to behave is to consider what would happen if everyone behaved that way (so for this reason, lying, stealing, and murder are unethical). If everyone took "just a little," it could have a disastrous effect, as cmm said.

 

[grumpus]

If the land is private, it's neither ethical nor legal to trespass and remove anything - even tiny seeds. If it's "public" land the ethical question becomes more interesting, though it's probably still illegal.

 

[DrWurm]

The real danger comes when you disclose the location of the plants. A lot of growers know of spots like this, but keep their mouths shut about where they found them because they don't want the location overrun. When it comes down to it, wild collected seed perpetuates our hobby. It might not be entirely legal (neither is jaywalking), but introducing new genetics into our hobby is usually appreciated. I'd say collect some seed, but don't disclose the specific location data to anyone.

 

[SirKristoff]

You would need seed collecting permits, the ICPS website states


Wild Seed Collection Etiquette:

Gather only enough seed to establish the plant in your own and a colleague’s collection. Use the collected seed as parental stock to produce seed for the ICPS seed bank.


Minimize your collection impacts by removing only a small percentage of the total seeds available from a site. A good rule of thumb is to collect seeds from only 1 in 50 fruiting plants; do not collect if less than a total of 50 plants occur in a site. It is particularly important not to over-collect seed from plants that reproduce primarily by seed. Small amounts of seed from several plants is better than a large amount of seed from one plant, since the genetic diversity in the collection will be higher, and is more likely to result in capturing a plant most amenable to cultivation.


When collecting, proceed slowly and cautiously through the site to minimize your trampling and disturbance of plants or their habitat. Take care to correctly label all the seeds you collect, and do not confuse collections of separate species.


Do not collect seeds if you cannot distinguish between mature and immature seed. Maintain collected seed in appropriate containers and environmental conditions.


The ICPS recognizes and appreciates the comments provided by staff of the US Fish & Wildlife Service, The Nature Conservancy, and Natural Heritage Programs in developing these guidelines

 

[swords]

Hmm, that seems to be a change in "policy" from when people found out about the N. edwardsiana seedlings were being promulgated by that one guy in VA a few years back. I remember statements like "no way should anyone ever collect seed unpermitted under any circumstances" and "what a ****!" Even though someone sent the seed to him to see if he could germinate it, he didn't collect it himself. Maybe the difference is cos they were for sale? But who would want to take care of several hundred baby N. edwardsianas and nothing else for decades? Everyone was so sure it would be the end of the plants in the wild and was the disaster of the century.

Now, just look what having a liberal president has done to the CP community.... lol!

 

[bladespark]

Thanks everyone for your input. I feel much better informed to decide what to do now.

 

[joossa]

Can you say at least what genus we're talking about here? Are you even in the US?

 

[Baylorguy]

As far as being legal, I would check with your local laws rather than a message board.

Ethics can be a funny thing. It seems these days what is ethical can oftentimes be relative. I agree with Swords... the ethics is up to you. I will say this, however; chances are if you are having to ask about it, then you have some reservations. Don't let other people talk to you into what to do. Make a decision for yourself.

 

[Clue]

It would help if you answer Joel's questions, but no rush.

It's ethical, but not legal... (wait, didn't someone else say that?)...