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No public health care = no change

  • #21
i can afford it cause i choose to live in a place where $50,000 can make a mortgage payment on a 2,000 square foot house and purchase decent health insurance and im only required to eat peanut butter sandwiches when i decide i want an expensive new rifle :D and we dont live off credit either.....the vast majority of stuff is paid for straight out of our checking account, either through checks or a Visa "credit card" linked to the checking account......some months are tight, others there is surplus that gets dumped in to savings.....and you also figure there is one teenager and one soon to be teenager sharing the house with us....
 
  • #22
I don't live off credit either, my old roommate showed me how bad that can be by his example having to weasle $ out of his dad to pay the rent and car insurance. He'd do his grocery/liqour shopping with his visa... My debt is built on my card from sudden things which I can't afford (car engine fire, alternator, etc). Since I'm single so it just takes a lot longer to pay stuff off, when multiple things occur it takes even longer.

Anyway, you have to have decent insurance to begin with, which my job does not. Which is why I would have jumped as soon as the public option was up and enrollment was open. The news always harps about the uninsured people but there are also people like me with insurance that isn't worth having in the first place.
 
  • #23
if yah can swing it, start throwing money in a medical savings account, you can toss pre-tax dollars into there and if yah only ever use them to pay medical bills you dont have to pay taxes on that money(atleast i think its a nation wide thing and not just MT state stuff......the wife does our tax stuff)....use that to pay normal doc and dentist visits and only carry the cheap major medical insurance that only kicks in after you have paid $5,000-$10,000 out of pocket towards stuff......actually i think this is a better option for normally healthy ppl over regular health insurance.....we are slowly working our way towards for ourselves.....even now with regular ok health insurance, we run a couple grand a year through the medical savings account for the oddball dentist, eye doc and some medical stuff thats no covered by the insurance........

---------- Post added at 12:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 PM ----------

a major cost of our health care as a nation that is not a major issue with any nation that has any sort of government sponsored health care is the HUGE number if illegal immigrants in our country and the drain they are on the system....i really think this issue needs to be addressed long before we start offering tax payer sponsered health care for the masses of legal citizens.....
 
  • #24
I agree. If you dig into why California is broke you will find it is because it gives money to those who should never have qualified for it in the first place. This is what happens when you have a program that pays out more than is put in.

In business the company goes bankrupt and out of business. What of government? Money is a real thing, governments just can't print it. That causes inflation which makes the money worth less and the amount borrowed from other countries go up.

Healthcare is a touchy issue and everyone agrees that something must be done. But having big brother come in to save the day is not what I would have in mind. Given thier previous track record, I would prefer them to stay out of the social program business until they can come up with a sustainable one.
 
  • #25
In business the company goes bankrupt and out of business. What of government? Money is a real thing, governments just can't print it. That causes inflation which makes the money worth less and the amount borrowed from other countries go up.

you REALLY havent been paying much attention to what the US gov't has been doing the last few years......where do you think the bail out money came from? the cash for clunkers program? its cause the US gov't has the printing presses and our money is not linked to how much presious metals we have in a vault
 
  • #26
Hey we finally agree on something! :bigthumpup:

(though the conclusions we draw from this "revelation" will be different... :D)
 
  • #27
I have been fortunate enough to spend quite a bit of time out of country. While specific examples can be made both pro and con what we have to look at is the big picture. Exactly how does our system compare to other nations in the world both developed and under developed.

I can tell you from my personal experience is that our system is severly broken and an embarrasement. But lets look at just some the data

First, from the CIA world fact book

Topic: Infant Mortality
The USA ranks 180... worse then Canada, Australia, New Zealand, European Union, United Kingdom

World's Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems
The USA ranks 37th, we come in between Costa Rica and Slovenia. Of the previously mentioned countries only New Zealand comes in ranked worse

Life Expectency by Country (Geographic.org)
USA ranks 24th, We come in between Israel and Cyprus

Percent of GDP spent on health care (the world fact book)
USA ranks #2, behind only the Marshall Islands

and it doesnt get any better...ive been in other countries and seen the same meds we have here, made by the exact same company in probably the exact same factory cost far less then we pay here.

Our medical system isnt only broke, its killing us

Just my 2cents,
Av
 
  • #28
the infant mortality rate numbers are wrong......your not comparing apples to apples the US counts EVERY SINGLE birth, including still births....i believe in Canada they have to live for 24 hours before they start counting them for stats....

and once again these other countries you speak of generally dont have over 10 million illegal imigrants living in their country......
 
  • #29
its not my numbers rattler, its our CIA

When i was in sydney australia, the reports at that time was almost 300,000 immigrants in just the city itself, when i was in Germany the talk was how in 20 yrs the "Germans" will be the minority
then you have the immigrant crisis in France.. etc etc etc

so I'm sorry mate but what you say and what ive seen dont really match on the immigtant issue,

But if your personal experiences have been different then mine, then feel free to correct me... my experiences are definitely not all inclusive
 
  • #30
where in the hell do the CIA get their numbers? do they have ppl in every hospital counting the births? no they go by the reported numbers....in Canada its not considered a birth for infant mortality statistics until its lived for atleast 24 hours.....in the US they report every single birth....whether the infant was born alive or a still birth....all of them are counted towards infant mortality.....if you add up all the still births and complications leadint to death in the first 24 hours, Canada's infant mortality would be similar to ours....

and im not talking immigrants....im talking ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS who are here and because they are illegal are not contributing tax wise other than on sales taxes.......cause they are here illegally and work for cash under the table and dont fill out W2's.........not to mention the US's higher degree of TB and such compared to the western world is also due to these immigrants.....hell leprosy is becoming common in a couple areas due to the high concentrations of illegal immigrants in some areas....
 
  • #31
I have been paying attention, that is why I bring it up.

When there is nothing backing currency, the only thing that determines it's value is supply and demand. The more the supply the less the demand. The less the demand the lower the value. The less the value of the dollar the less materiels you can buy with a dollar on the global market hence the more $/item you have to pay. That is inflation. Printing money doesn't solve the issue because it devalues the money even more.

Hence my response, you can't just print money... that causes inflation. Which doesn't really solve anything. It is just a way to shift wealth to the printers of the new money as it causes the value of the money in circulation already to decrease. I guess I should have said shouldn't and not can't.

If you want to loosely paraphrase the situation, it is a way for the government to tax you further as they are sucking the value from the money you get to keep and transferring it to the new money just printed.



you REALLY havent been paying much attention to what the US gov't has been doing the last few years......where do you think the bail out money came from? the cash for clunkers program? its cause the US gov't has the printing presses and our money is not linked to how much presious metals we have in a vault
 
  • #32
given the US Government has been spending more money than they take in for YEARS....just where do you think this money comes from if they arent printing it without backing of precious metals? they just havent done it to a point yet where its caused major inflation.....mainly cause the majority of it so far has just been money on paper and not actual bills changing hands.....if everyone called in their debts there would not be enough cash in the system to do it......
 
  • #33
where in the hell do the CIA get their numbers? do they have ppl in every hospital counting the births?

Yes. They have eyes and ears everywhere! Or so I've been led to believe... lol. :-))

a major cost of our health care as a nation that is not a major issue with any nation that has any sort of government sponsored health care is the HUGE number if illegal immigrants in our country and the drain they are on the system....i really think this issue needs to be addressed long before we start offering tax payer sponsered health care for the masses of legal citizens.....

This is interesting and I hadn't thought about this. Thanks for bringing this up, rattler. Do you have any additional reading on this facet?

xvart.
 
  • #34
well the fact of the matter is it is illegal for any public ER to turn away someone who is in need of medical care.....no matter what anyone trys to tell you its a fact.....not saying that some hospitals arent over worked and understaffed and it wont take you 14 hours plus of sitting in a major ER's waiting room for a busted finger or other non-emergent issue.....but if yah come in complaining of chest pains they kick yah to the front of the line....many ER facilities in border states are shutting down due to the fact a significant portion of their er clientele is illegal immigrants who dont pay and cant be made to pay for their services....

ill find the numbers for yah in a bit, going to take some back tracking to find where i last ran across the hard figures....
 
  • #35
Soley on the backs of me and my fellow Americans. We have not backed our currency with gold and silver since 1933... I think so don't quote me on that. Countries can request payment in gold if desired. I do believe some countries have with the US in the past, but again don't quote me on that. We wouldn't have enough gold to cover even a fraction of our debt.
(edit: Just did research and we actually backed it up until the Nixon administration to our foreign debtors until France made a run on our gold and nearly depleted us.)

Only a fraction of our economy is made of paper and coin it is mostly binary 1's and 0's with magnetic tape backups of course.

Just came across a relative link:
http://www.fordham.edu/Campus_Resources/eNewsroom/Archives/2008/archive_1377.asp


given the US Government has been spending more money than they take in for YEARS....just where do you think this money comes from if they arent printing it without backing of precious metals? they just havent done it to a point yet where its caused major inflation.....mainly cause the majority of it so far has just been money on paper and not actual bills changing hands.....if everyone called in their debts there would not be enough cash in the system to do it......
 
  • #36
FDR took us off the gold standard in the 1930's(maybe 1920's?).....there hasnt been ANY precious metals linked to any of our currency since they quit making our standard coinage(quarters and dimes, ect) with silver in them in the 1960's, ive got a bunch of 1950's dimes worth more than face value at the moment just due to the amount of silver in them......our current dollar is absolutely NOT currently backed by precious metals and hasnt been for decades.......

and your right by way of our economy our currency value is directly linked to the backs of the 9-5 working stiffs.....and congress can and does have a part in royally screwing this up......we havent felt how bad its going to get yet....the whole country at this point is running on those 1's and 0's and and credit and its all a house of cards starting to topple.....

xvart...heres a link to an older story(bout 18 months old) but am still looking for hard numbers, or relitivly hard numbers from studies.... http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-01-21-immigrant-healthcare_N.htm
 
  • #37
Where'd we get the money?
We borrowed it from the Chinese... and when inflation hits, cause it will, they will be quite upset.

As for Health Care, I know the Massachusetts and California Health initiatives and NY's Medicaid are all a mess. So let's ram through something similar without so much as a plan before the Summer recess?

Why the rush? So Ted Kennedy can have one last vote in the Senate. Notice Obama's going to "Kennedy Land" for vacation... maybe he can lay a wreath at a certain pond in Chappaquiddick.

I agree with reform... the system's an expensive mess and a drain on the economy. A safety net for people that deserve it would be a good thing as well.
But when people start declaring Goverment Heathcare a "right" they are just wrong.
It's not in the Constitution fellas.

Maybe a Gov't responsibility at best, even then that's pushing it.
It would be a good thing though as long as it's done right, if done wrong it will ruin this Country.

There are people who exploit the systems in place through various means. I think we need to clean house before we expand on it.
I know that's what they are talking about, but they simply aren't doing it.

Fix it first, then we can talk...

Just my $.02
 
  • #38
as i said it took Obama 6 months to pick out the perfect dog for his family......and ppl want him and congress to throw together a brand new health care system together in a matter of weeks? i would be a lil more comfortable if they spent a couple years hammering things out......course by then there will be so much pork added it would prolly do us more harm than good.....and i flat out refuse to agree to any system they come up with that congress themselves refuse to be a part of it....if it aint good enough for them it aint good enough for the citizen busting there arse 60 hours a week trying to keep food on the table who truly needs the help....
 
  • #39
I work in healthcare and it is a mess. The problem is as some pointed out is that the gov't taking it over will be a bigger mess. One thing I have noticed is that it is only media and sheeple baaaing what the media says that says canadians come here en masse for healthcare or that they wait days in ER. I have seen polls in healthcare magazines taken from legitimate polling agancies that 95% of Canadians prefer their system to ours. The statistics for their ER are actually better than ours because people get better overall preventative care than here. The ER's here are over-run with patients who are not emergent and shoudl go to their doctor but can't due to waits at their doctor or no money. So what this boils down to is first,

I would love to see an emphasis on health teaching, nutrition and preventative medicine.

Gov't funded well health / non-emergent clinics that charge per ability to pay.

Regulation of healthcare companies to ensure they stop screwing people over and overcharging.

An SR-22 program for people who have healthcare issues and can't get healthcare coverage.

Govt buying program for medicines and medical supples. Why do people go to cancada to get meds? This is why. Bush's medicine plan screwed people out of billions by making them pay retail for meds. The gov't could have easily negotiated much lower rates.

Gov't programs to help hospitals purchase expensive euiptment. This is why it is $1,200 for a CT. Those machines are in the millions of $'s and need specialized employees to use them. They also use a massive amount of electricity. Being overcharged by hospitals is the least of my worries.

S-chip for all kids. (children's health insurance program). Let me preface the next sentence by saying that I am very libertarian and hate both parties vehemently. the republicans pissed me off when they refused to properly fund this program. because they said parents would drop their insurance if their kids could get treated. That makes no sense, they were bought off.

Now some of this is expensive, but pennies to the gov't bailout program. It aslo does not allow gov't to dictate healthcare policy or run it and it limits their involvement on the privacy issues. Little to no increased bureaucracy.

Some sort of limits of medical law suits , but this is tricky. They need to crack down on frivilous sue and settle cases and the massive class actions suits where each defendant gets a few bucks and the lawyers are set for life.

Refurb money for rural hospitals. I have heard America has the best healthcare. That is not true we rank somewhere in the 40's world wide. We have some of the best doctors and facilities but who has access to these. The very rich and very poor and of course politicians.

I am done with my rant. Sorry for the length. ( I f I had a nickel for every time... :-D)

---------- Post added at 01:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------

Healthcare is not a right, but is it the moral thing to do. It's ironic in a country that many call a Christian nation we would think healthcare is only for those who can pay. There are alot of things that are not rights but that are duties. Whether we know it or not we have a responsibilty to the social contract. when we bring up others in society we all benefit. Healthy people are more productive and and less of a drain on future healthcare costs.
 
  • #40
most Canadians do say they prefer their system..........but the average wait for a non emergent MRI is 6 to 8 months.....most Canadians that i know that had knees replaced(and i mean that i personally know, not instances that i heard about) flew over seas to have it done and did it out of pocket cause the wait is so long in Canada, by the time they woulda had it done they would have been confined to a wheel chair for awhile before they would have the surgery.......i blows my Canadian friends minds that the day i screw up my knee i can have an MRI done and be out of surgery to fix torn cartilage or an ACL that let loose in under a month.....that type of time line for non emergent care is unheard of in Canada.....most of them have to wait months for the MRI let alone how long its gonna take for surgery.....especially if they can still walk on it....

and being i live all of 60 miles from the border.....alot of border hospitals in the US do see alot of Canadian patients cause they can get seen much sooner for non emergent issues.....and they pay for it out of pocket.....one of the hospitals north of me, though they are in a town with a much smaller population, they are doing booming business due to the Canucks....

also the Canadian system is currently imploding......those in charge of the systems are screaming that its not doing well......also the Canadian system relies heavily on the US medical system, more specifically our R&D.....their system doesnt support much R&D work because the profit isnt there....so new techniques and equipment is developed and put through its paces in the US where there is profit in it and than Canadian hospitals purchase this technology after it hits the mass market....very little of this happens the other way around, where we get new medical technologies from Canada......also because the health care is "free" everyone uses it for every lil thing....runny nose? run to the er.....lil warm? run to the ER....after all it doesnt cost "me" anything.......it clogs the hospitals and those that are really sick have to sit and wait......and its not "free" most average working stiffs in Saskatchewan, those in my pay scale range, have 50% of their paychecks taken by the provincial and country government, a large portion of which goes toward their health care......ive seen their pay stubs......

yes most Canucks prefer their system, until it bites them in the arse personally....then they are usually very happy to hop the border and use ours....and unless it has bit them and they have sought treatment in another country they are happy with it because they have known no other......

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw
 
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