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No public health care = no change

  • #41
Those who argue that the U.S. health care system is better than that of Canada because Canadians come to the U.S. for health care must also conclude that the health care system of India is better than that of the U.S. Many U.S. citizens go to India for health care, especially certain types of surgeries. It's so popular that there are businesses in the U.S. that provide that service.
 
  • #42
didnt say its better.....do know which i would prefer.......ive gone through chunks of time where i had no health insurance and i still prefer ours.....rather pay out the rear for health care i can get today versus it being "free" and ive got to wait 6 months to get an MRI just to figure out what is wrong.....

our system aint perfect by a long shot.....but ill still take it over what they in DC are looking to shove down my throat.......they spend more than they take in now.....can yah imagine what our debt is gonna look like adding tax based health care? forse DC to run a balanced budget, then look at increasing the debt load.......what most here seem not to get is almost 50% of our population in effect does not pay income tax....they either dont have to pay in every year or get a refund greater than the amount they pay in......if you guys want this sort of health care EVERYONE will be paying income tax every year......your taxes will go up, there is no way that can not happen......."free" health care is anything but.......
 
  • #43
If you go to a hospital, and you cannot pay and do not have insurance, they must treat you. Why do you think so many illegals and other poor people flood the emergency rooms with minor illnesses? Because they cannot be turned away. This is a fact. My wife worked as a nurse in a major hospital in Cleveland and knows this to be true.

The problem is not medical, but insurance. Let the people own their coverage. Let it be portable. Let it cross over state lines. Allow quality medical savings/spending accounts. Enact tort reform and reign in outrageous malpractice claims.

Look at medicare, medicaid, s-chip, welfare. All of them are poorly run, inefficient, broke. Who in their right mind would expect the bloated, wasteful, federal government to be able to handle 20% of the national economy without screwing it up? History shows that it can't be done. Socialist countries in Europe are starting to turn away from socialized medicine, because it is expensive, inefficient and people are not getting the care the need or deserve. Just look in the news at how government medicine is ruining people's lives.

If you want rationing, waiting for months for life-saving treatments (if ever) and a bloated bureaucracy which will cost us more than we are now paying, then socialized medicine is for you. Like the president said, you don't need that surgery, just keep taking your pain pill.
 
  • #44
actually.....our state run s-chip program aint to bad.......they re-evaluate whether the person fits the standards for it regularly so there is lil abuse of it.....my wife had her daughters on it shortly after her divorce......decent program run fairly responsibly.....i voted to pay more in taxes for it at the November election even though the girls havent qualified for it for years......as did the majority of the voters....funny thing, the majority of the voters dont qualify for it......our s-chip program is OK......aint perfect but it aint bad......
 
  • #45
They keep raising the age for the s-chip program, so now adult children qualify in many states.

Remember, government is not about helping, it is about control and power.

One of my favorite Thomas Jefferson quotes: The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield, and government to gain ground." - Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, Paris, 27 May 1788.

James Madison said: “The essence of Government is power; and power, lodged as it must be in human hands, will ever be liable to abuse.”

Shame they don't make students read the constitution or the Federalist papers anymore.
 
  • #46
If you go to a hospital, and you cannot pay and do not have insurance, they must treat you.
That's true, and it's also true that if you have a job you're ****ed. They will take everything you make by garnishing your wages, any assets you have,house, car, etc. True, they can't sue a homeless person or someone as destitute as my father (just above homeless) but anyone lower middle class like myself may as well quit working cos you'll never have a dime again. I have seen the papers you have to fill out when my dad filled them out. Had he any possessions worth possessing he wouldn't have them anyone.

"Well, At least you've got your health"

"Yes and a very roomy cardboard box behind the liquor store to live in! God Bless America and the corporations she's run by."

This was one of the very few programs ever created to help the bulk of Americans, instead of just the ones at the top and people have actually allowed themselves to be cowed by shareholders into fighting down something that only goes for their benefit. Politics just never ceases to amaze me...
 
  • #47
There’s a misconception that all government programs are bloated. Some are more efficient than programs run by private companies. For example, Medicare has an overhead of about 5%. By contrast, private health care insurance companies have an average overhead of about 20%. That’s why the profits of a big health care insurance company called United Health more than doubled this past fiscal year, when everyone else was experiencing a recession.

The best health care system would be a single-payer system in which a government agency would pay private health care providers for services, in much the same way that Medicare does. However, a single-payer system would virtually eliminate private health care insurance companies, and they have too much money to contribute to the members of Congress to make that a viable alternative.
 
  • #48
there are over 300,000,000 ppl in the USA.......if you provide a government insurance for even half of them even paying cost and not figuring in profit for meds, procedures, doctors working for minimum wage, you quickly have one huge number that needs to be funded some how.....and ppl complain now that taxes are to high, even when most of them really aint paying any....

there is no way this country could handle such a system without imploding......you right now have a congress that doesnt give a rip about anything but getting reelected.....the majority of the US was against the bailout but they passed it anyway, and not a single member of congress read the bill.....they voted on it 2 hours after copies were made for everyone, it was a stack of paper damn near 8 inches thick.......they have no interest in even ATTEMPTING to run a balanced budget.......excuse me if i have no interest in handing over my health care to these wackos.....and you have a huge chunk of the population now living on handouts cause those in congress keep giving them to those ppl so they can get re-elected.....as i said nearly 50% of the population now pays no income tax.....

the USA's current system isnt ideal and yeah it costs alot but dammit i can get seen by a doc when i need to, i get stuff fixed when i need to........DC needs to be completely revamped before it is even remotely a good idea to start looking at health care for the masses......other wise we will just be digging our grave as a nation, faster and faster...
 
  • #50
When members of Congress are subjected to that very same public program that they are so driven to pass this Fall, but seem unable or unwilling to read its 1200 pages in its entirety, I'll be ready climb on board. They jealously guard their own privately-run insurance coverage and I am sure that Ted Kennedy -- were it not for his personal wealth and private medical insurance -- would otherwise be among JFK and RFK by now. Heads of state of other countries, when faced with serious medical crises -- most recently Italy's Berlusconi in 2006 and, earlier, Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh -- routinely fly to the US for treatment, typically to the Cleveland Clinic or Johns Hopkins. Why is that when they must surely have a worker's paradise with a "public option" medical system ready to take care of them in their respective countries?

I have lived overseas on a few occasions in the last twenty years and the advice I've always received from those under socialized programs is, "Whatever the hell you do, don't ever get sick . . ."
 
  • #51
I have health care insurance and access to pretty good health care at an affordable price. However, there are nearly 50 million Americans without health care insurance. Many of them defer going to a doctor because of the cost when they initially get sick, at a time those with insurance would see a doctor. It’s a sad commentary on a rich country that so many people don’t get health care when they need it. It’s only when their condition deteriorates that they feel they must get health care. By then they may be so ill that they require expensive treatment. They go to an emergency room, where the hospital is required by federal law to treat them and bring them to at least a stable condition. If they don’t have enough money, they can’t pay. But the hospital has to somehow cover the costs of care (the salaries of physicians, nurses, aides, the cost of medical supplies, the cost of tests, etc.). That’s why private insurance premiums are higher by about $1700 per year than they would otherwise be. Those uncompensated costs have to be covered somehow.

Even people with health care insurance shouldn’t feel secure. Some health care insurance plans have very high deductibles. Most plans have a cap on how much the insurance company will pay out in total. If an individual gets a terrible disease, gets a lot of treatment, and exceeds the cap, that person is on his/her own from then on. No more help from the insurance company. In addition, insurance companies have been known to cancel the insurance of people who contract a disease because the insurance companies know they are going to have to pay out at lot of money to treat those people. Young, healthy people tend not to get insurance, and so the insurance companies screen out the people who are going to use a lot of health care so that they can make a profit.

Unfortunately, health care in the U.S. is largely dependent on private health care insurance companies making big profits. In this case the “invisible hand” of capitalism works to distribute resources, but not in a humane manner. The “invisible hand” is at the throats of the uninsured, and the invisible hand is choking them.

The World Health Organization recently ranked the U.S. health care system #37 in the world, and that is behind countries like Colombia and Morocco. In the U.S., a whopping 17% of the GDP goes to health care, and 15% of the population isn’t even covered by health care insurance. In countries with universal health care, only 10% of the GDP typically goes to health care. Clearly, U.S. citizens are paying too much for too little. The health care system needs reform.
 
  • #52
dont much care what the WHO says.....i would rather be in any backroads one doc dink of a hospital in Montana over any hospital in Morocco even without insurance.........

and our nation isnt a rich nation compared to the others....our debt load due to DC is damn near unimaginable....and if the Chinese, who own alot of that debt, ever decide to collect we are screwed......if DC aint under control it makes no seance to put them in control of your health care......
 
  • #53
The World Health Organization recently ranked the U.S. health care system #37 in the world, and that is behind countries like Colombia and Morocco. In the U.S., a whopping 17% of the GDP goes to health care, and 15% of the population isn’t even covered by health care insurance. In countries with universal health care, only 10% of the GDP typically goes to health care. Clearly, U.S. citizens are paying too much for too little. The health care system needs reform.

That dubious WHO ranking and affect on the GDP never takes into consideration the great cost in innovation -- the billions that go into developing cutting-edge diagnostic equipment, pharmaceuticals, and procedures; and, as a scientist myself, those numbers simply represent one statistical model among many (you can pull numbers out of the ether if you so desire) -- and as removed from reality as a china doll is from an actual child.

Once again, if the US truly ranks thirty-seventh in the world in terms of our health care system, it still remains a mystery why so many foreign leaders still arrive at our shores for any serious medical treatment, and why a good friend of mine from Quebec traveled -- on his own dime -- to New York to get his knee replaced in 2007, and his mother to receive a timely MRI . . .

I suppose waiting two years to get off of crutches and eight months in Montreal to determine whether she indeed had stage-three cancer was beyond the pale. How terribly selfish of them.

Why Morocco or Algeria was never considered for diagnostic treatment, though, remains a mystery. They just had to slum it in the US . . .

"Rock the Casbah,
Rock the Casbah . . ."
 
  • #54
....maybe US was closer
But seriously now....you don't have to look at any statistics in order to tell that the US healthcare system sucks! All you have to do is go to ER!!! 800$ for an x-ray!!!! WOW! Then you may try this in different contries around the world and compare the results. People come for treatment here because the docs are good (the best?....how can you tell?) and better equiped not because the system is good. BTW the system is perfect only for the rich.
The European healthcare system is not perfect but is way better than this crap that we have here....you don't have to believe me...just go and see it for yourself! (BTW i spent most of my years there)
Here your life can end even if the docs save you....after you recieve your bill!....or you can make car payments to an med insurance company that can dump you if you get really sick!
I LOVE THE WAY THEY DO BUSINESS!....and you, the supporters of this crap!
 
  • #55
I am self-employed and pay for my own insurance; and I've never payed 800.00 for an x-ray in my life, though close to that for an MRI. But that's the cost of being wheeled into a two million dollar machine; it was either that or cast entrails, tea leaves, or runes to see what was wrong. I went with the GE route.

I also agree that the cost of insurance is high (and I am not defending that), much like my car insurance, to pay for those uninsured, illegal aliens, and for the rising cost of everything. I eventually pass this cost on to my clients (much like the recent restaurant tax in San Francisco which contributes to employee health care). Adding the moribund bloat of the US government to the mix will be a colossal nightmare; just consider the condition of VA hospitals and bankrupt Medicare and Medicaid. They cannot even manage these comparatively minor institutions, much less accommodate the medical care of the American population at large. Fix those services first and let the government impress me with its acumen.

When those who in Congress, who continue to enjoy private insurance services, but who seem unwilling or unable to read or process the 1100 page health bill they are in such a fever to pass this year, sign up for that same "public option," I am far more likely to climb on-board. But I am also wisely investing in Lotto this weekend.

I have never had faith whatsoever in the US or any other government, regardless of who is in office, and recoil whenever I hear, "I am from your government and I am here to help you . . ."
 
  • #56
$800 for an x-ray huh? i just got a series of 8 xrays of my back a few weeks back on one of the newer digital x-ray machines......the entire series might be around $800 but im not sure of that.....do know a shot of my knee a couple years ago before they went digital cost $65.....ive paid around $1000 to have a look at my knee but it required i spend 30 minutes in an MRI.........$800 for an xray? can i have some of what your smoking?
 
  • #57
I think it's important to remember that nobody's going to force you into a public option, so whining about how long it would take to get help is a moot point. The public option is meant to turn the screws on the insurance companies. If you can't afford private healthcare, a public option is better than nothing at all. If you can afford private healthcare, the public option, along with other aspects of Obama's bill is going to help drive your costs down.

Jason
 
  • #58
I think it's important to remember that nobody's going to force you into a public option, so whining about how long it would take to get help is a moot point. The public option is meant to turn the screws on the insurance companies. If you can't afford private healthcare, a public option is better than nothing at all. If you can afford private healthcare, the public option, along with other aspects of Obama's bill is going to help drive your costs down.

Jason

It is additionally important to realize that the private sector cannot ultimately compete with a government program that is funded by the tax base and can exist without the profit motive of the open market; otherwise, we would have an efficient and cheaper postal service, but there are laws on the books that do not allow the public sector to openly compete with the USPS, that is to say, the government. Fedex and UPS and some others have eked out some limited access but cannot send letters for forty-four cents -- not without government subsidies.

The other real concern is that some companies will simply drop their private medical coverage for their employees, in the face of a cheaper government option; in which case, the notion of any real choice for many becomes a moot point.

Lastly, how is this going to ever be realistically funded, in an economy that is tanking?
 
  • #59
".........$800 for an xray? can i have some of what your smoking? "
I quit smoking after that:-O ....but i can give you their number and you can ask them for some....they sure are smoking something. Maybe i'm exagerating a bit....let me explain how it went down ...you must be living in the nice part of USA since you don't know about these things...
So i got a back injury (sports related) and it was so bad i could not breathe right and the pain was just too much. I had a emergency med insurance which usually covered half the costs. Some friend of mine took me to ER since i was having trouble breathing. After 2 hours and 50 min finally was my turn. I did understand that the kid sitting next to me had a severed finger so he was next...they took him faster...he waited only 1 hour and about 45 min!!!! Anyway, back to me, i went in...they checked me and then took me to the x-ray. Some of my vertebras have moved a bit out of place...nothing serious. They give me some pain killers and some anti inflammatory medication and that was it....20 min for almost 2000$. I had to pay a part of it ...the 800$. This happened about 4 years ago at Anaheim Memorial and unfortunately i did not keep the bill.
So...rattler...since you know a lot about healthcare maybe you can help explain what happened that day.
Lotto is a wise investment, BB....i'm doing it too!
 
  • #60
I think it's important to remember that nobody's going to force you into a public option, so whining about how long it would take to get help is a moot point. The public option is meant to turn the screws on the insurance companies. If you can't afford private healthcare, a public option is better than nothing at all. If you can afford private healthcare, the public option, along with other aspects of Obama's bill is going to help drive your costs down.

Jason

depends on what version gets passed.....at one point there was language in the bill stating that private insurance companies could not take on new clients.......in effect that would get rid of private insurance before long......at this point i wouldnt trust my federal government with my health care......we need serious reform in DC long before we start talking about doing this.....giving the current group this responsibility(and i mean BOTH sides of the isle in both the house and senate) for the health care of anyone is bordering on suicidal.........

as i said i aint necessarily against major reform to our health care system but ill be damned if ill willingly turn over the reigns to this group or any DC group from the last 50 years atleast......
 
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