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Thread: so much for playing nice...........

  1. #9
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    ....its politics not hard science.......
    Yes, it certainly is.
    ~Joe
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    rattler's Avatar
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    http://www.ravallirepublic.com/news/...cc4c002e0.html


    Local sportsmen group asks state to control wolves
    Story
    Discussion
    By PERRY BACKUS - Ravalli Republic

    With elk populations teetering on collapse in portions of the upper Bitterroot Valley, a local sportsmen organization is asking state and federal wildlife agencies to significantly reduce the number of wolves in the region under a process allowed by the Endangered Species Act.

    The Ravalli County Fish and Wildlife Association made the formal request this week to the governor's office and Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks after a court ruling put this year's wolf hunting season on hold. The association wants state and federal agencies to initiate a process under the Endangered Species Act's 10(j) rule that allows states with approved wolf management plans to manage wolves to ensure the health of elk and deer herds.

    "Frankly, we believe that the threat to the very viability of the elk herd in the upper Bitterroot is dependent upon an aggressive wolf reduction program as their numbers in the area are far beyond what was called for in the reintroduction process or any balanced sense of wildlife management," said Tony Jones, the association's president, in a letter to FWP.

    FWP Wolf Program Coordinator Carolyn Sime said managing wolf numbers under provisions of the 10(j) rule is one of a number of alternatives the state is considering.

    Idaho Fish and Game officials said that state is also considering asking the federal government for permission to use the rule to reduce wolf populations in places where elk numbers have declined due to predation. The ESA's 10(j) rule was revised in 2008 by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to give states more latitude in managing wolves that were deemed to be impacting ungulate herds.

    That same year environmental groups filed a lawsuit challenging the revised rule in U.S. District Judge Donald Molloy's court. Wolves were delisted in March 2009 and the lawsuit was put on hold after Idaho dropped its request to implement the rule.

    Michael Robinson of the Center for Biological Diversity said that lawsuit will move forward now that states are considering asking for permission to use the rule to kill wolves. Robinson said wolves have been made the scapegoat of declining elk numbers that are the result of habitat degradation and other factors. "We consider it a misplaced attempt to use the rule to kill wolves ... our lawsuit will move forward," Robinson said.

    The 10(j) rule applies only to the portion of the wolf population classified as experimental, which includes wolves in the Bitterroot Valley. Wolves in the northern half of Montana are classified as endangered under the ESA.
    While the state is looking at the potential of the 10(j) rule, Sime said officials are also considering a number of alternatives that would address wolf management in all parts of Montana.

    The rule would take time to implement. The ESA requires states to offer the public an opportunity to comment and a peer review process, Sime said.
    "We recognize the concerns of the local sportsmen," Sime said. "They are invested in that elk herd. If it weren't for Montana hunters, we wouldn't enjoy the wildlife that we have."

    Time isn't something that elk have in the West Fork, Jones said. "We hear people talking about potentially rewriting the Endangered Species Act or appealing the decision," Jones said. "Those are all great ideas, but they are going to take time. The elk in the Bitterroot don't have that kind of time." Elk numbers in the West Fork of the Bitterroot have dramatically declined over the past five years while wolf numbers have grown.

    In 2005, biologists counted 1,917 elk in the hunting district associated with the West Fork. Those numbers have dropped to something close to 750 over the past two years. Biologists could only find four bulls for every 100 cows this spring. The calf/cow ratio stood at nine per 100 last year. Ideally, calf numbers should be closer to 35 per 100 cows for a sustainable elk herd.

    The next big decline in elk numbers will happen in the next couple of years when there aren't new animals to replace the ones that die, Jones said.
    The state has set new seasons to cut back on elk harvest this year. There are virtually no opportunities left in the Bitterroot Valley to hunt cow elk, Jones said.

    "Hunters have done their part in attempting to protect elk herds in the Bitterroot," he said. "Now we need to do something about the predators here before there is nothing left to protect." Jones' letter asked that state and federal wildlife agencies begin "immediately, or sooner if that is possible" to implement the process to remove a significant number of wolves.

    "We believe we have in hand, as a result of the tremendous work done in that area by field biologists, scientific documentation of this need - and that the time to act is now," the letter read. "Right now, in fact."

    The Ravalli County Fish and Wildlife Association led the efforts in 1910 to bring elk back into the Bitterroots. "We see it as a travesty that the work done to build that herd into one of Montana's most important elk populations is being wasted because of the unwise way in which wolf reintroduction has been handled," Jones' letter said.

    Editor Perry Backus can be reached at 363-3300 or editorravallirepublic.com.
    cervid serial killer
    Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety
    I didn't get stimulated but he kept his promise on change, that's about all I got left!
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  3. #11
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    Ugh, this is why I can't stand politics. I know you're about hunting and I'm also kind of about hunting but at this rate I wonder if we maybe need to give it a rest for like 10 years and just watch to see if things start to balance out a little. There is so little understanding of the dynamics of the situation - one thing I am certain of is that making snap year-by-year judgements of what animals should be where and how to control them is not going to help us collect any better information on predator-prey ecology. The money involved by the business and administrative interests makes it impossible to do good science on the matter.
    ~Joe

    PS - And for out of control wolves, we'll breed our own K-9 border patrol force to respond to animal trespass incidents. Keep out alien deer and wolves! They're takin' our jerbs!
    o//~ Livin' like a bug ain't easy / My old clothes don't seem to fit me /
    I got little tiny bug feet / I don't really know what bugs eat /
    Don't want no one steppin' on me / Now I'm sympathizin' with fleas /
    Livin' like a bug ain't easy / Livin' like a bug ain't easy... o//~

  4. #12
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Hopefully someday the humans will just go extinct..problem solved.

    Scot

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    Quote Originally Posted by seedjar View Post
    Ugh, this is why I can't stand politics. I know you're about hunting and I'm also kind of about hunting but at this rate I wonder if we maybe need to give it a rest for like 10 years and just watch to see if things start to balance out a little. There is so little understanding of the dynamics of the situation - one thing I am certain of is that making snap year-by-year judgements of what animals should be where and how to control them is not going to help us collect any better information on predator-prey ecology. The money involved by the business and administrative interests makes it impossible to do good science on the matter.
    ~Joe

    PS - And for out of control wolves, we'll breed our own K-9 border patrol force to respond to animal trespass incidents. Keep out alien deer and wolves! They're takin' our jerbs!
    there was decent science on the matter....ecosystem could handle 450 wolves in the area based on studies done else where......they let the number hit over 1400 cause the ecofreaks have decided the wolves are a better animal to have around than elk moose and deer.....

    give it 10 year to level out.....we dont do something in the next year or two we will be paying millions to reintroduce moose and elk to the areas after the wolves have wiped them out and then get killed off when they move to eating livestock.....we will be in the same situation of the first part of the last century, no wolves cause they were eating livestock and got poisoned off and no elk cause they all got killed but this time instead of man doing it it will have been the wolves....

    ---------- Post added at 03:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by scottychaos View Post
    Hopefully someday the humans will just go extinct..problem solved.

    Scot
    hear this from idiots all the time....think humans need to be wiped out for the better of the planet but to chicken to take themselves out to live up to their own principles....
    cervid serial killer
    Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety
    I didn't get stimulated but he kept his promise on change, that's about all I got left!
    http://www.wolfpointherald.com/--http://www.safety-brite.net/

  6. #14
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    Yeah, I figured you'd feel more or less that way. I guess that idea is a little extreme, but still, I think that we should choose a policy, preferably one that doesn't involve a lot of stupid relocation and reintroductions, and stick with it long enough to see if it'll work long-term. I personally like the idea of wildlife sanctuaries, and wonder if we couldn't come up with a system where animal lines are conserved but populations are allowed to fluctuate and be regulated outside the preserves.
    ~Joe
    o//~ Livin' like a bug ain't easy / My old clothes don't seem to fit me /
    I got little tiny bug feet / I don't really know what bugs eat /
    Don't want no one steppin' on me / Now I'm sympathizin' with fleas /
    Livin' like a bug ain't easy / Livin' like a bug ain't easy... o//~

  7. #15
    rattler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seedjar View Post
    Yeah, I figured you'd feel more or less that way. I guess that idea is a little extreme, but still, I think that we should choose a policy, preferably one that doesn't involve a lot of stupid relocation and reintroductions, and stick with it long enough to see if it'll work long-term. I personally like the idea of wildlife sanctuaries, and wonder if we couldn't come up with a system where animal lines are conserved but populations are allowed to fluctuate and be regulated outside the preserves.
    ~Joe
    thats pretty well what is being done in Western Montana.....grizzlies tagged in Glacier and Yellowstone have been found up in Canada and down in Colorado....pretty much the entire western 35% of the state is considered griz country, if your in the mountains you are supposed to watch and camp like they are around cause they can be around....

    Montana has done a pretty darn good job at juggling the needs of wildlife and the needs of ppl which is why we have been considered a major hunting destination from nearly no game in the 30's and 40's to it seems like more game than anyone is interested in shooting.....growing up in the 50's and early 60's my dad hunted with my grandfather around here and you could hunt for weeks and not see a deer, today i can buy 1 buck tag and 7 doe tags and fill them in one day if i really want to get after it.....

    we have successfully managed every major animal put before us to the point they have expanded and either are or could be hunted(the griz aint hunted but it would be easy enough to sell a half dozen tags a year and not impact the population in any measurable way) we also have mountain lions that went from only being found in remote wilderness to being found across the entire state with hunting seasons for them....

    Montana has a proven track record with managing wildlife including large predators, to not let us manage the wolves and let them wipe out what hunters have busted their rears and emptied their pocket books to do over the last 70 years is idiotic and insulting.....it was hunters that shut down hunting of nearly wiped out animals, not the government, it was hunters that wanted the animals to be around for their great grandkids to hunt....now after busting our ***** for 3 generations to ensure that happens your gonna screw it up with not letting us control wolves? if you want the wolves to be around for your grandkids, turn over their management to us or we will wipe them out to protect all the other species....
    cervid serial killer
    Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety
    I didn't get stimulated but he kept his promise on change, that's about all I got left!
    http://www.wolfpointherald.com/--http://www.safety-brite.net/

  8. #16
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rattler View Post

    hear this from idiots all the time....think humans need to be wiped out for the better of the planet but to chicken to take themselves out to live up to their own principles....
    woah..talk about a misread..
    I thought we had both been around this forum long enough that you knew me better than that! guess not..oh well, no biggie..

    Scot

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