Opinions Wanted! Field collecting?

[GrowinOld]

Field collecting?

It is interesting to me how people speak out so strongly and emotionally against the behavior of people/places like Jim P from Peter-Paul's Nursery, or how involved a discussion of the "legalities" of field collecting of specific plants gets, etc.

AVOIDING ALL OF THAT (save it for elsewhere please, unless it pertains specifically), I would like to know everyone's OPINION of field collecting plants/materials, and whether you think it is ethical behavior for us to support... and if so, where you think the "line" should be drawn.

I realize there are entire industries collecting peat, sand, etc. and I am NOT referring to businesses so much as I am to our own TF members. I am wanting to know what kind of people are here, loving and growing CP's, and sometimes even loving and respecting its environment. Where do YOU stand on this matter. And as a TF member, what do you want and expect from fellow members? (Even if you are young and haven't given this any thought at all, speak up and say so!)

Is it only the law that guides you?, or do your think for yourself and have your own opinion about this? If you support this freedom of field collecting, where do you draw the line? (I am interested in that also.)

Again, be specific as you can, and also if you have ways that you deal with this situation, share those too. (Like people did when they discovered what Peter Paul's was like!)
Please keep this to YOUR opinions. I am not interested in what the laws state at all!

Contrary to what people may think, I am NOT against field collecting.
I actually have nothing at all against someone legally collecting, in a responsible and "environmentally-respectful way. But now, what means... "a responsible and "environmentally-respectful way"?
These are what I want to hear from all of you! (Yes, even those to whom I have disagreed with in the past.)

Thanks in advance for those of you who care to reply. And thanks especially to those who reply in a mutually respectful way.

 

[pappydew]

I'm not sure how to best answer the question...I'm not even 100% sure what I think myself.

I would like to think that taking a specimen here or there couldn't hurt but at the same time I don't think I would want to take that chance myself. Drawing the line between what is environmentally friendly and what is harmful isn't necessarily clear and I feel like people could easily step over that line without facing punishment. Because of that I guess I would just avoid collecting completely.

Personally, I will be buying plants that have hopefully been firmly established in cultivation and leave what is out there, out there. I might be unintentionally crossing plants off my want list as I speak LOL. Heck, some of the plants I currently have may not even be fitting my standards without my knowledge!

Again, this is just my opinion. I do realize that in order for a plant to be introduced into cultivation initially it would have to be collected. And I now see I'm drifting more towards commercial collecting but in the end I just do not plan on directly participating in this type of business myself.

 

[dashman]

I think common sense should be the prevailing factor here.

If I were in the situation to field collect, which I have never been.

I would ask myself these questions all three would need to hold true before I would even consider it.

1. Do I have any right to collect these plants?
This is an easy test. Do I own the land or have the land owners permission.
Public property does not give the public the right to collect. It belongs to all of us and not for me
to decide which portion of the property I want to own.

2. Is this plant scarce?
Not only is it endangered, but is the plant scarce in it's own environment. If there are
thousands of these plants and the plant wasn't in any danger of becoming extinct from my interference
then I would feel OK taking a few. If they appeared scarce, I would not harm them.

3. What are my purposes for collecting?
If only a few and only for my own needs, then I would say my deeds are virtuous since I
can then sustain a population in my care and enjoy the fruits of my labor by sharing and
trading the offspring.

If more than a few and my motives are for quick personal gain, then that is not virtuous in my opinion
as it is not sustainable given the slow growth habits of most CPs.

4. Lastly if all three above criteria were true I would then ask myself...
Can I take a few seeds or cuttings w/o taking the whole plant.

 

[BigBella]

There was a discussion on the CP UK site last month -- dealing, primarily, with extinction and some conservation issues; and the usual vapid straw man arguments about capitalism and overpopulation's role played a part, as well as some issues dealing with field collection (since I did know a number of people who got into some seriously hot water over the years -- though all but one eventually managed to get all charges dismissed).

"One of the major issues associated with conservation -- plants in particular -- is the odd categorization or lumping together of some plant species, which wasn't originally intended, under the same rubric as, say, endangered mega-fauna -- elephants, rhinoceros, and lions (that, and the various products made from them) -- under CITES Appendix I (Most Endangered) status; the analogy suffers when you consider that a single plant's seed pod (and a mature plant may produce five to twenty per season -- many orchid species, for example) -- could potentially produce upwards of 10,000 seedlings under cultivation (many orders of magnitude greater than that of any of the CITES I protected animal counterparts), whereas only a few percent of the plants ever survive to reproductive maturity in the wild, due to competition for resources, to herbivory, disease -- any number of factors.

"Paradoxically, it is quite legal, as others have mentioned, to flood a habitat for a hydroelectric dam, farming, construction of roads, or even golf courses and resorts, but CITES makes it all but impossible and highly illegal (under the threat of imprisonment and hundreds of thousands of dollars or euros in fines) to salvage those plants, even the odd seed pod, and potentially distribute them to cultivation . . .

"There have been armed raids -- many certainly political in motivation -- of private collections of those suspected of possessing illegal species (notoriously, one in the 1980s on Henry Azadehdel, a famed orchid expert, describer of a number of species, a contributor and former collector for Kew Gardens) throughout Europe and the Americas and the confiscation of thousands of plants. To add insult to injury, the plants are more-than-often neglected and, on some occasions, thousands of supposedly all-important CITES I plants die while in custody. Plant labels are carelessly or even intentionally changed or "lost"; roots and blooms are trimmed, and broken, so that the age of the plants in question are often indeterminate as to whether they were cultivated or potentially collected from the wild. Even more ridiculous, is the fact that many herbarium specimens -- dried, some hundreds of years old -- cannot be imported or exported for study, due to reflexive CITES restrictions. It is also quite ironic that many commercial growers who had been under suspicion at one time or another -- especially now that so very much is readily tissue cultured in house -- have managed to cultivate larger populations of some endangered plant species than those that currently exist in the wild.

"Compounding the issue, are species that have been cultivated in collections -- many for decades -- that have only recently fallen under the CITES I restrictions, such as the entire orchid genus, Paphiopedilum did, in 1990. Overnight, many growers found that they possessed contraband in their greenhouses and were at risk of imprisonment and or sizable fines; and most people after some years, cannot document where they obtained each and every plant -- including those which were then-legally imported, some even wild-collected -- from Asia in the 1980s . . ."

 

[dashman]

That is the reason I believe common sense should prevail ...

 

[F R e N c H 3 z]

There's plenty of different views out there but here are mine and how I feel if I were to do this I would justify them...

Is the plant in question able to grow without assistance in it's current place or is it a matter of time until it is doomed? i.e Development, degradation due to land modification etc...

Can I keep this plant alive in a private collection? (expertise, funds etc...)

Am I or will I be able to share this plant with multiple people should something happen to my collection?

Will my actions benefit the community?



I personally strongly believe that collecting should be done by responsible collectors with a goal in sight... The plant may be very common, say D. rotundifolia but if one collects wild rotund and doesn't take the time to make sure that the original location of the plant is passed along, how is that anything other than 'raping the land'?
I also feel that NO personal gain should be made (ie. sales); if sales are made what difference is there between these actions and poaching Regardless of having permission from the land owner or should it be your land, making money off collected material is not what THIS community is about.
Should collection finally be reached only a small sample will be needed rather than taking 10s or 100s of plants or gallons of live material. Propagation is such a beauty of this hobby that not using it and having a larger effect on the land is simply an act of laziness.

Where I feel collection should NOT happen would be in instances where the plant from the same location is already in cultivation or the only goal is to make a profit. If everyone proceeded to act with profit in mind, our community would be a lot less rich in content than it currently is. Let's hope it can stay this way despite some of the backwards movement going on...

Surely I've missed something, I'll just add it back here

 

[Adam]

In my personal opinion, I believe that:
You should first get permission from the land owners(if it's a state prk, that's better).
Is it on Cites 1 or 2? If not, go ahead and take 2 plants MAX of that species.
If it is, take a few leaves for leaf cutting(depends on genus)
And if it's on Cites, then if you are taking seed, 1 stalk MAX!

 

[Exo]

Definitely a trick question, but I'll speak my mind...

I feel that collecting seed in small amounts is acceptable, but taking an actual plant is not (unless it is about to play chicken with a bulldozer of course).

 

[Dexenthes]

I live in a pretty remote and wild setting. I am surrounded by sphagnum bogs so these questions arise in my mind all the time. I've taken every Carnivorous plant that grows here, out of its environment at least once. That's not something I'm necessarily proud of and I did it years ago and didn't even properly cultivate them afterwards.

Now that I am a bit more mature and realize the consequences of my actions I have set some guidelines for myself.

The thing is, in my area, there are thousands and thousands of seemingly vast acres of wetlands and CP habitat. The most common species here, without a doubt, is D. rotundifolia. Because there are so many billions of rotundifolia that I have seen and know to exist, I have no problems taking pretty much as many of these plants as I want out of the environment, because they do reproduce quite easily and they are quite common. That being said, I don't really do that. I've only taken maybe four or five rotunds out of the environment ever and I've never done it to trade or sell.

D. anglica is a different story. These sundews are much less common and really only grow in a few select locations. I've taken one of those plants from their habitat, and because of my carelessness, it passed away. This is something I regret greatly. But, I'm not entirely opposed to taking another specimen and growing it correctly, and then growing its seed correctly as well. I feel that if you can capture the plant, and breed it successfully in your own environment, then taking one or two specimens is justified.

P. vulgaris, are somewhat common as well. Though not as common as D. rotundifolia, they can be found in a number of environments across the islands. I've taken a few of these plants, and they grow well even when neglected, and they flower well as well. Because of this, I don't feel bad for taking the couple plants that I did in the beginning.

The one unidentified Utricularia I have encountered, I have only taken once and I didn't care for it well enough, this was many years ago when I was a child. Since these aquatic Utricularia are relatively scarce, I don't feel good taking these plants. I might again, one day, take another example and care for it correctly, but I would never take more than one MAYBE two plants.

It's a tricky question, when we are so fascinated with these plants, and I myself am surrounded with what seems to be infinite amounts of CP habitat. But even with the abundance of plants, I realize that poaching these plants is just the first step to reducing their wild numbers.

Though, it could be the first step to expanding their cultivated numbers.

If a plant were ever noticeably scarce or endangered, I would never take a plant. The fact that I have poached wild plants reflects only their localized abundance in my area.

As far as land owners rights go, I literally have zero cares. In most cases the corporations that own these muskegs and the executive officers of these corporations see only dollar signs in the land, and being wetlands, not very big dollar signs at that. I'm sure they don't even know that insectivorous plants grow in this region.

 

[Sig]

I think it's most important to focus on the moral, not legal law. If you're taking some seeds or a cutting to spread the plant to other people, and with location data, I think it could be a net gain for the species. If you're ripping plants out of the ground to sell, with no care for their safety or the species itself, no. As said, the legal law isn't what's keeping a hobbyest from taking an S. oreophila, it's because they know the species is in danger. But even though it's illegal for, NASC, say, to take some seeds, grow them with a high success rate, keep a few clones as insurance, and replant the rest, I wouldn't have a problem with them doing that.

 

[rattler]

in general depends, wholesale collecting like happens with VFT's and the like isnt good......wipes out an area.....an individual that collects a couple of plants from a healthy population means nothing as far as the survival of the locale......ive got native wildflowers out in my yard i collected from road sides.....next tractor through could have killed these individual plants and its a species thats neither rare here nor threatened anywhere that i know of.....no laws against it either and i find it neat ive got the wild plant growing next to cultivated hybrids of the same genus and how lil difference there is between them.....

as other posters have said common sense should prevail.......unfortunately to many ppl with to lil common sense makes laws necessary......

 

[Taargus]

I think the moral law is also more important here too, as actual law is very flawed in my opinion. I have no problem with field collection for institutions and for scientific purposes of understanding the plant better. I have no problem with any person or business field collecting if the plant is over-populated as long as it's one or two and not harvesting an entire area(obviously?) I have no problem with plants being field collected if they are extremely rare and taking one or two could lead to the entire species being saved from extinction, (I think there should be provisions made for this actually, but then the problem of who gets to decide arises...) I actually think that if a parcel of land is about to be bulldozed the plants should be collected, rare or not, whether the end is for survival of the species, replanting, or even in some situations for profit (but then again I'm conflicted as to who gets to decide?) Not allowing field collecting when land is about to be destroyed is where I think CITIES hurts, not helps.

 

[Clint]

If you see plants on privately owned property and want one, get permission from the owner. First, ask yourself why you want it. Is one plant unique? Or if te owner says to take them all, would you just to sell them? What is legal and what is ethical aren't always the same.


Take one or two or even three, preferably baby plants, and some pictures and offer the owner a little cash for letting you take his plants. This conversation reminds me of one of my house mates. His family had some land full of Sarracenia at one point, and some environmental group wanted to do something, or maybe it was the government... Anyway they decided to kill every last plant and destroy the population instead of having some group/organization interfere with eir property. Sorry that I can't remember specifics.

If it's public land like on a park, take pictures and leave only foot prints.

If it's a CITES plant... Don't touch it. Even if it's about to be destroyed.... Not really worth getting into serious legal trouble over. But you shouldn't worry about that anyway, unless you go out looking for plants listed under CITES in the first place. I believe that CITES is overly restrictive and hinders as much as it helps, overall. A "Don't Touch" policy doesn't work, because sometimes things need intervention, and proactive measures (like getting a little bit of seed into TC) can really alleviate the threat of collection to wild populations, as well as spreading awareness simply by making an unavailable plant available.

But still, no matter what, if we could all have cheap, mass-produced CITES 1 plants, people would still poach them. People will still buy poached plants. I'm sure some of our members have poached plants... Either knowingly buying poached plants, having suspicions but not asking about the origins, or at the very worst did it themselves.I know of several people who grow poached N. ,and I'm sure they paid a lot of money for them. Thats the motivation for the poacher...but a poacher will sell them for cheap prices, too. This is the value of TC. Endless amounts of cheap plants.

If the plants are in impending doom of being bulldozed, try to get permission to save them... That's what the right thing for me to tell you is. That said, I'd be lying if I said I have never taken plants from what is now a paved subdivision. All of the ones I kept perished in the great freeze and fungal infection of 2009 as I call it. There are still plants circulating around between other hobbyists that I have given away or traded away. They weren't physically unique plants but it's neat to know that the genetics of that population, which is now gone to urban sprawl, still exist and some of you might even have their offspring.

It's important to take down and keep records of location data, for instances such as the above. If you ever get plants with location data, even of you don't care about it, you should still keep a record of it in case you trade/give/sell it at some point. A plant with location data is more valuable in the eyes of the collector, for breeding, and monetarily.

If you only see ten plants... Leave them alone if they are in no danger, even if you can get permission to take one or two. If you see a hundred and get permission, I see no problem with field collecting. When you can take seeds instead of plants, do that. I'd rather have one seedpod from a wild stand of plants that ten adult plants, that way I get a LOT of plants with a little patience, the plants get to spread their seed, and the population isn't really harmed.

Some people may believe in the butterfly effect.... But I really don't see how legally taking a seedpod from a big site is anyhing but good. An exception would be something like S. oreophila. I am lucky enough to have a cabin within 15-20 minutes of one of the last mountain seep bogs, and one of the last remaining stands of S. oreophila. Even if I COULD take seed, I wouldn't dream of it. Even around the many large clumps of plants, I stepped pretty carefully to avoid hurting anything. The last time I was there was several years ago and the plants were healthy and numerous. It's a shame they had to put up cameras to deter poachers.

It was in thread of erosion from development higher up. I'm not sure whatever happened with that, but the nature conservancy was trying to buy some land uphill and make a wall/filter of sorts out of te land to catch the silt and save the bog. I'm sure it all probably ended up well.

I have pics somewhere in the depths of this forum if anyone cares to search for them.

Clint

PS: please excuse any typos... As you can see typing on an iPad os fast and easy, but it's autocorrection feature sort of sucks. Also, i need to change my avatar...I hate Obama.

 

[Nepfreak]

2 cases where I think it's OK to collect, and these ONLY when you have all the legal permission:

1. It's about to "play chicken with a bulldozer" (well, really )

2. It's invasive and displacing native species

 

[dashman]

Excellent point on #2 nepfreak. I didn't think about invasive species. I have been watching the fishing show on Animal Planet and this is a very real problem in the animal and plant kingdoms. Asian carp, snake heads, zebra mussels. The Indiana Dunes in northern Indiana are being slowly overtaken by invasive grasses seeded by residential areas. A very real problem indeed.

Why can't there be any invasive CPs around my area though? I would gladly collect them all.

 

[Presto]

Bulldozers and invasives aside, I think there are two sort of extreme situations, where common sense prevails:
1. There is a population so large you can't walk without stepping on them. Of course taking a plant won't harm the population.
2. There are only a couple of individuals left. Even taking a seed could be critical.

But I think in most cases, it's sort of a middle ground/grey area, and that's where the trouble comes in. For argument's sake, say I took a S. purpurea from a particular local bog. There are a few dozen at this site and taking just one plant won't harm the population. But there are more and more people coming into the CP hobby all the time. If all of the CP growers in my area did the same and each just took one plant, that would definitely harm the S. purpurea population at that site, probably even wipe it out.

So you have to draw the line somewhere, but where do you draw it? Say that only "serious" CPers can collect? (How would you define "serious"?) There's really no clear-cut answer to that. Maybe I'd try to justify it to myself by rationalizing that I'm a dedicated grower, or that I'd be preserving a specimen from that site for posterity. But, the honest truth is, I cannot in good conscience say that I am any more worthy of field-collecting than the next guy. So, I don't collect.

Another thing to keep in mind is that not all plant populations expand at the same rate. Something like a Drosera population can replace a few lost individuals in...what, a couple of months? Where replacing a mature Sarracenia would take years. So, the effect of taking a Sarr or two would be much more significant on its respective population.

 

[SDCPs]

I would legally collect seed anytime. I would take cuttings if plants are healthy. I would collect plants if there were hundreds of them (such as certain drosera populations)

 

[droseraguy]

Sheesh, what a mixed bag of thoughts. Mostly my own ! My first thought is to do nothing that will harm or endanger my own collection. I don't want to give the powers that be an reason to make my collection theirs and to fine me on top of it. On the other hand 99% of the inspectors out there have no idea what is endangered and what isn't, by sight that is. (It's easy to read a tag that says S. oreo !!!!!!!!!!!!!) Most of the Fed. and local guys are busy looking for emerald ash borer, gypsy moth and all the baddies that will endanger the nursery stock and local tree populations. This means alot of busy guys following orders from Ag. directors.

On the other hand what harm can I do if I only take a few plants and seed pods ? Odds are I won't get caught and they can be shared, right ? Take that thought times 100 well intentioned folks and the population becomes more endangered.

At this point I'd like to relate a personal story. Years ago I met a guy that had an orchid growing in his yard that was endangered. I thought wow that's neat. As it turned out he had wild collected this seed pod and cultured the seed on his own. Many of the offspring were returned to the wild just off a newly constructed walk/bike path where the original had been found. In this case he had really done the plant a service but it was at his own risk. He took a chance and really risked a big fine but in the long run probably did more good.

Some gambles pay off some don't. It really works when people like in the ICPS start a progam that lets endangered plants get propogated and spread through legal channels. Now I have to admit that I killed my sarrs. aquired this way but I still had the chance to grow them for a while.

I guess what it comes down to is your own morals (like anything else). Your comfort level with risk. The size of your bank account. The realtive security you have telling and sharing with friends and their friends etc... It only takes one crack addict to "crack" and give up his dealer and so on up to the last guy. In this case the Govt. collects fines all the way along funding thier CP witchhunt. Then again that's what big Govt. does right ? Justify and justify again.

 

[Steve Booth]

I dont think that wild collecting is a correct and proper thing to do, unless the plants are doomed of course, as it can only upset the delicate eco systems that exist, which could, ultimatly lead to the demise of the plant population.

Having said that all these beautiful and incredible plants that we buy from nurseries, shops etc, and love so much, where did they come from? They were all collected from the wild at some time, bred, hybridised and propagated in numbers so we can all enjoy them at a low cost without damaging the environment, which isn’t a negative effect is it? So have I just argued myself into saying its OK?, I’m confused!!

Steve