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Cephalotus 'Eden Black' Seeds

  • #21
I've seen seeds labelled "D. muscipula 'Akai Ryu' F1", and I assumed that these were either selfed or D. 'Akai Ryu x 'Akai Ryu' progeny. Presumably it might also be accurate to label the seeds in this post as "Cephalotus 'Eden Black' F1" seeds as well, yes?

I think D. muscipula 'Akai Ryu' F1 would be a specific clone of a crossing between two D. 'Akai Ryu'. The #N means something completely different with other plants, but I've never seen it used the same with CPs, I've seen F1 used as a grid map location on some plants.

I would think the F1 was just what they labeled a crossing, but this is getting out of my league with naming :-(.

These seeds should be labeled Cephalotus 'Eden Black' x 'Eden Black' (crossing 2 seperate plants) or just Cephalotus 'Eden Black' x (Selfing a single plant). Later, if they started showing unique characteristics you could go with "Cephalotus ('Eden Black' x 'Eden Black') New Plant Name Here"

Keep records of everything and keep them labeled very well, that will help more than anything with the value. Even if they turn out looking just like a typical Cephalotus as long as they are properly labeled and can be validated they will be worth way more than a typical.

Good luck with the seeds, hope they grow well.
 
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  • #22
Okay, okay. Enough wild and woolly naming schemes. Actually some were close.

I know that my narrative, below is somewhat lengthy and has extraneous information, that is related but not 100% pertinent. The answer is in the last paragraph of this post.

With Cephalotus follicularis, there can be no interspecific hybrids (crosses between different species or other hybrids in the same genus), since there is only one species in the Cephalotus genus. All that can be created are sexual reproductions within the one species. However, in horticulture, these sexual reproductions can also be considered hybrids in certain specific circumstances.

So there are only horticultural hybrids possible with Cephalotus follicularis. And presently only hybrids between cultivars would be recognized, horticulturally as Cephalotus follicularis hybrids. So seed produced with at least one parent being a registered cultivar, even selfings of a single cultivar could be considered Cephalotus follicularis hybrids, since they will likely produce offspring with genetic variation.

Since Cephalotus 'Eden Black' is a selection from non-cultivar parent plants, it is not, itself, of "hybrid" origins. Thus seed produced by self-pollinating Cephalotus 'Eden Black' would not generally be considered an F1 hybrid. It is simply written as Cephalotus 'Eden Black' x self. F1, simply means first filial generation. But in horticulture the parents of an F1 hybrid are usually, first highly inbred to stabilize their desirable traits. This repeated selecting of self-pollinated progeny increases the homozygous traits of the parental line being developed. An F1 hybrid is produced, primarily when two distinct parental lines are crossed to produce a first generation hybrid. Since a selfing of Cephalotus 'Eden Black' is not a cross between two distinct and different parents, it would not be considered a typical F1 hybrid.

As an example, an F1 hybrid could conceivably be generated by growing a group of Cephalotus follicularis seed, produced by the same mother plant, or distinctly different mother plants. As these seedlings mature, you select one group for depth of pigmentation and another for size of pitcher leaf. You continue growing them until they are mature, then you select the most outstanding individual of the darkly pigmented group and the most outstanding individual of the large pitcher leaf group. You can even register each as a cultivar, if that seems appropriate. Then you self each of these individuals and repeat the process as many times as seems appropriate, generally until the majority of the seedlings, each time, appear nearly identical to their parent. This could be the first selfed generation or the one hundredth. Now you have your inbred F1 parents, you cross them and the offspring are your F1 hybrid population. They are usually very uniform and will be nearly identical to each other and any future populations generated by crossing those very same individual parents to recreate the same F1 cross.

Since all plants of Cephalotus 'Eden Black', presently are genetically identical (vegetative propagations of one original plant), a cross moving pollen from the same flowers to stigma of the same plant/flowers or moving pollen between flowers of individual Cephalotus 'Eden Black' plants is effectively the same, a selfing. And, since a cultivar is defined as all plants that are identical to the published cultivar definition and photographic standard, conceivably many plants with distinct genetics could be considered the same cultivar. Then that could possibly complicate things, somewhat. It is, of course, more likely that clones grown from seed produced by self-pollinating any Cephalotus 'Eden Black', could possibly meet the standard and also rightfully be called by the cultivar name Cephalotus 'Eden Black'.

Bottom line - these seed, if produced by self-pollination and not cross-pollination would be labeled: Cephalotus follicularis 'Eden Black' x self, or in a more cumbersome way, Cephalotus follicularis 'Eden Black' x 'Eden Black'. If plants are genetic clones (produced by vegetative propagation), it doesn't matter if they're growing on opposite sides of the planet, and they swap pollen by rocket ship, their seed are still produced by self-pollination.
 
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  • #23
Well said Joseph Clemens.
 
  • #24
@Bag1234, your inbox is full. :(
 
  • #25
My understanding is that Cephalotus 'Eden Black' came from a cross between two other named Cephalotus and there were three seedlings, all of which looked different. Given this, is there not a good chance that seedlings produces from 'Eden Black' seeds will also look different to the parent?
 
  • #26
My understanding is that Cephalotus 'Eden Black' came from a cross between two other named Cephalotus and there were three seedlings, all of which looked different. Given this, is there not a good chance that seedlings produces from 'Eden Black' seeds will also look different to the parent?

Of course there is that chance, but given the traits of Eden Black, crossing it with itself would certainly give the seeds a much higher chance of being similar to the cultivar or at least impressive in some other manner, then the chance of a typical Cephalotus being crossed with itself.
 
  • #27
Time will tell, but I guess that we will have a long wait as any traits won't be evident until the seeds grow into mature plants.
 
  • #28
Only validly registered cultivar names count as named cultivars for the creation of horticultural hybrids, and presently there are only two Cephalotus follicularis plants that are officially named cultivars; Cephalotus 'Hummer's Giant' and Cephalotus 'Eden Black'.

So, even though Cephalotus 'Eden Black' may be derived from seed produced by crossing Cephalotus "vigorous clumping" with Cephalotus "Dudley Watts", which would seem to give it the qualifications to be derived from a hybrid crossing. <even the="" originator="" cephalotus="" eden="" black="" is="" not="" certain="" of="" its="" parentage.=""> Neither of these parents is actually a registered cultivar. So, as far as horticulture is concerned they are just two unnamed wild plants. And even Stephen Morley mentioned in his publication of Cephalotus 'Eden Black', that he wasn't certain of its actual parentage, either being from a cross of these two parents or possibly from self-pollinated seed. DNA testing could possibly illuminate the truth of this.

However, since Stephen Morley did publish these possible parents, naming them and describing them in the same publication that described the cultivar, Cephalotus 'Eden Black', and in the same publication also included photographic standards for Cephalotus "Dudley Watts" and Cephalotus "Vigorous Clumping". Perhaps all that needs done is to submit them to the ICRA (Jan Schlauer) for registration as cultivars, then they might also become official registered cultivars. After that it might be valid to designate Cephalotus 'Eden Black' a selection from a hybrid (if DNA testing proved that to be the case). Of course, it wouldn't be an F1 hybrid as F1 hybrids are derived from highly inbred and homozygous parents whose offspring are generally also quite uniform. As Stephen Morley stated in his description of Cephalotus 'Eden Black', many seedlings were grown, two were initially selected, but only one persisted to become the plant we know today as Cephalotus 'Eden Black'.</even>
 
  • #29
Time will tell, but I guess that we will have a long wait as any traits won't be evident until the seeds grow into mature plants.
..... that's if they germinate .... given the age of the seeds, the owner's experience level and their somewhat serendipitous nature ..... not a given...
 
  • #31
Thanks mobile,
I was only going by what is written in the published cultivar description, I was not familiar with those additional details.

"From the resultant seedlings I selected and kept two of the best, most vigorous plants. Both of these plants were unique, but unfortunately only one of the plants survived over the years…but what a plant!" Linked, here.

Obviously the author has left out some details.
 
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  • #34
Hahaha, Brokken... :lol:

Any updates on these seeds, Bag1234? Spouts, or duds so far?
 
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