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Starting Bonsai Help

carnivoure12

Hear the Call of Nepenthes
Hi Everyone,

I've been wanting to get into bonsai for a while, and I've done some research. Many websites offer a lot of information about care, shaping, pruning etc.

But I've found that they tend to be vague about choosing a specimen, this is what is holding me back. I have no idea which tree to use, and when I choose one, what do I do next?

So basically I'm asking for information about choosing a species for an outdoor Bonsai (I live in Canada), and one for an indoor bonsai, I've had a ficus in mind.

What size should it be? Do I immediately plant it into a bonsai pot, or what do I do with it? After I plant it what should be the first steps?

I would like to thank everyone in advanced.
 
I think you can make a bonsai out of pretty much any plant you want.. you're essentially just making the plant smaller than it actually would be naturally by pruning it to the shape that you want. Bonsai comes from Japan doesn't it? They have seasons there so maybe look up what outdoor bonsais the bonsai-masters used to make trees from over there as a starting point. And if maple turns out being on that list, I love maples and would love to see how it would turn out :p

I made an indoor bonsai once and it was potted in one of those long, shallow bonsai pots; potting soil was really just unscented, non-clumping cat litter, there's a bonsai-wire thing you can buy to train any branches you need to adjust, and you need sharp clippers too to cut things that need to go. It was some small pine-y tree, not sure which one though. Considering the lack of moisture retention of the "soil", you're going to have to water pretty often like with orchids potted in plain old bark if not more, but otherwise I don't think they need special care.
 
If you're doing it outdoor in Canada, I don't think a ficus would enjoy it too much, but I could be wrong.

If I were you I'd try a hardy deciduous tree or a conifer that grows semi-locally in your area. You can try it with let's say an oak tree, or a cedar of some kind.

From what I know, like Thez said, you can do it with most any plant.

Something I've really wanted to try is making a bonsai Nepenthes. Their growth habit is just such a way that I don't know if it's possible or not.
 
If you are looking to do a tree that will produce a wonderful bonsai in short order look at getting an Orange Osage. These trees grow widely in the Midwest of America. There seeds come in a large ball that is about the size of a softball. The cattle, deer and elk eat them and then deposit the seeds in their droppings. The seeds will not germinate unless this has happened so do not except seeds from the Osage. The Osage copies the look of an ancient, bent up tree with in a year or two of growth. This is its natural course! Very little wire work is needed, except to set the tree of course.

The best way to start any tree for bonsai is to set it in the ground, not a container. Most trees will need to be left in the soil for a good while, years even, to thicken the trunk. This is not so with the Orange Osage. From start to finish the Orange Osage is remarkably symetrical tree. I will see if I can get a couple for you. You can get them off of Ebay as well.

Before planting the tree into the ground you need to cut the main tap root. After completing that you need to set the tree in a trench and spread the side roots out. Do not let the roots go down into the ground. This shallow root base is necessary to get the tree into a pot later. As the tree grows you need to check this roots and make sure that the do not get very long. Small roots will grow out of these side root and will feed the plant. The tree can not be allowed to get to dry because you have a very small root base feeding it. It is not as important while it is in the ground, but once it goes into a pot you will be watering it a few times a day.

Do you need more now or is that enough info? Would you like a different tree? We need discuss soil layering, Bonsai styles, tray...oh so much. This is another wonderful hobby. I like to collect from the farms around. They get to thick with trees and I can select some good specimens. The problem with this is that the tap root may be to developed.

---------- Post added at 08:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 AM ----------

Dex is right. Do not grow a fiscus outside. However I would not go with an oak. An oak is a difficult tree to work with. You must cause the tree to grow smaller leaves and this is a trick that takes a lot of experience. Look more to a Juniper. You have many choices a styles with the Juniper. They are a pleasure to work with. Pick your Juniper on the size of the needle leaves and the size you plan on growing the tree to. The outside Bonsai can be a larger specimen. The larger a Bonsai the easier it is to keep alive. Bonsai can be from a few inches tall (very difficult) to approximately four feet. Again, this tree would start in the ground. The ground method is the only way to get a nice thick trunk unless you buy a type that grows a thick trunk from the start.

What tools do you have?
 
You can not make a bonsai out of any plant, but there are many that you can. You also need to find companion plants for them, but that is about the last thing to worry about. As far as soil mix, that kitty litter soil will not keep the bonsai (any decent bonsai) alive for very long. The art of Bonsai is more then keeping a miniature tree alive (which is difficult at best), but to do so while copying nature as closely as possible. Nature does not use and absorbent clay material as a topsoil base. You will not need to worry about the soil layering until the tree is ready for a tray and there is a way to go before that happens. Bonsai is an art of patience. If you can not work and wait for the prize do not get started in it. Wait ever you do, do not go out and grab a cheap bonsai to start with. I have bought them and with the intent of putting them in to proper care. They are very poor bonsai and the proper root base was never allowed to develop. Fiscus and jade are often used in the making of disposable Bonsai. It is a sad slaughter. Start slowly, plant choice is first. If you are just looking for a Bonsai to please you then look carefully. Look at the limbs of the tree. Is there a pleasing structure. Is the tree healthy? If you plan on radical bends and the do not come naturally to the tree then make sure that it is very flexible. If you want a contest tree then you first must decide on the style you wish to make and choose the tree from there. There are different trees for different Bonsai styles. You do not want a rigid tree for a cascade. I will write more about that later. This is just mainly to get a point across of the work that a real, healthy, beautiful Bonsai takes.

Soil, argh. Soil needs to be done in a layering method, just as the earth does in real life. Dig a deep hole, a few miles, in the ground and what do you find? Layers. You need a bedrock substitute on the bottom, then you work from large to fine. There are sieves for this task.

Bonsai, what does it mean? Miniature tree? No. It actually refers to the pot, but it is the art of growing a tree in a container. To make a bonsai you must use regular tree stock, not a miniature stock. That is growing a miniature tree and is another art form. Fiscus trees and other Wally world favorites are in this group. When you look at buying a tree you will see that some tree saplings have already been prepared for Bonsai. This means that the top has been cut off the tree. This has to be done so that you can make the small (not miniature) tree appear to be tall. A real tree tapers as it grows, but to taper, unless it naturally does early, you must make the tree thin toward the top. To copy this the top of the tree sapling is removed and replaced by one of the trees limbs. Limbs taper as they move away from the center of the tree so you cut of the top and bend a limb up to take its place.

Again, enough for now. Are you up for this art form? Can you use it as a method of relaxation as it was intended? Will you take the time to do it right? I am again going to start growing bonsai as well. I had twelve and was sunning them. The neighborhood kids stole or destroyed them all. No more sunning them in the open. Oh, Yeah, you will have to make a special location for them and probably build Bonsai benches. Again, that is for much later. A Bonsai artist knows that he is creating a masterpiece for the future and he or she will never see the completed, as Bonsai are never completed, but they have a beauty that is unmatched. A beauty of the love and care that has gone into it and the beauty of the pleasure that it has given.
 
use a tree that has small leaves. bonsai mimic large old trees so having a tiny tree with large leaves really doesnt produce this effect very well.
my dad has a couple bonsai he started with chestnut trees. the leaves are HUGE on a 12 inch tall trunk. kinda stupid looking if you ask me. ive never told him this tho :p

i personally like the way elm tree leaves look amd theyre cold hardy
 
Copper has allrdy said most there is to say but i'd like to add some more things.
Dont try to follow all the bonsai rules bec websites say you must, do it the way you like.
If you like large leaved bonsai's, make one with large leaves imho :p
Its not about making a proper "japanese" bonsai imho, but about what you like.
For indoor bonsai this is a great website with info on how to make something nice fast :) http://www.fukubonsai.com/
It focuses mainly on schefflera's wich are nice if you like that kind of bonsai with tons of aerial roots.
 
Copper has allrdy said most there is to say but i'd like to add some more things.
Dont try to follow all the bonsai rules bec websites say you must, do it the way you like.
If you like large leaved bonsai's, make one with large leaves imho :p
Its not about making a proper "japanese" bonsai imho, but about what you like.

I disagree with that..
you *should* actually strive to "follow the rules" of bonsai..and not just go your own way..
for the simple reason that if you follow the rules, you will end up with MUCH better looking bonsai! ;) which you will enjoy and be proud of..
but if you just "do whatever", you will probably be disappointed in the result..

And I also disagree that you can use ANY plant..there are plenty of trees that are simply unsuitable for bonsai..Horse chestnut, Sycamore, Magnolia, and many others..
the leaves and flowers are simply WAY too big, and cant be reduced much at all..

Classic trees for bonsai include:
Japanese maples
Trident maple
Hornbeam
Beech
Junipers
Many, but not all, pines.
and plenty more..

probably 75% of native trees can be used for bonsai..but definately not all..
and its simply better to begin, as a newbie, with one of the "tried and true" species..
Personally im a big fan of the Japanese and Korean hornbeams..beautiful trees for Bonsai:

http://www.livingbonsai.com/images/B218Exploded_004.jpg

The key is you want a tree native to your climate, (or native to a climate similar to your own)
so it can easily survivie outdoors all year long..yes, there is "indoor bonsai"..
but for someone new, I would start with the more traditional "outdoor" bonsai..

I agree that the best way to begin a bonsai is to grow it in the ground!
the trunks really thickien up quickly that way..
("quickly" meaning 5 to 10 years before it can go in a bonsai pot!
you have to cultivate patience with bonsai! ;)

For someone new, I would recommend buying one or two "semi complete" bonsai from a reputable dealer..like these:

http://www.internationalbonsai.com/arboretumtour

They dont necessarily have to be really expensive..I have bought very nice small trees from that nursery (link above) for $20 to $40..

then you can have the enjoyment of actual nice bonsai, in bonsai pots, and you can then learn to trim and care for them..then if you want to try your own from seed or cuttings, you can start those in the ground..

A warning..this time of year you begin to see the "mallsai" in stores, malls and big box stores:
http://wiki.bonsaitalk.com/index.php/Beware_the_mallsai
(Lowes, Home Depot, Target ect carry them year round)
these are crap..
Usually junipers, and usually actually DEAD when you buy them!
junipers are used for this, because they stay nice and green for weeks and months after the plant is actually dead..so people cant tell..
avoid these..they are junk plants..

Scot
 
  • #11
Maybe i did not explain myself well enough.
When i say do what you like, i think of artists like Walter Pall, who don't follow the japanese rules as a law, but make very good bonsai none the less (i like Walter Palls stuff way more then the traditional stuff):
http://walter-pall.de/00gallery/index.html
He also has a nice chestnut :) http://walter-pall.de/otherdhorse_chestnut_nr__1.jpg.dir/index.html

oh ok..
I have never heard of Walter Pall..
what does he do that "isnt following the rules"?
I know there is a developing "western" school of thought..
but I have never seen anything that is radically different from traditional bonsai forms..

Walters trees are amazing:

http://walter-pall.de/supershotsbroadleaved1.jpg.dir/index.html

But they look like classic oriental bonsai forms to me!
im not seeing any departure from the traditional "rules"..
in fact, those all look like they could have come straight from the Japanese masters! :)
So im guess im not clear how he isnt following the traditional rules?

Scot
 
  • #12
Afaik what he does that is different, is he doesnt always has the left right left right branching pattern exactly according to the rules, stuff like holes and deadwood on dedicious trees is also not japanese.
So its not so different, just small details.
Overall his trees more resemble beautifull wild existing specimens, while the japanese are more non existing perfect trees imho.
 
  • #13
Hey everyone,

Thanks for the great amount of information, especially scot, and copper! I'm aware that a ficus is totally unsuitable for outdoor cultivation in Canada. I guess I wasn't too clear, I had it in mind for an indoor application.

So I guess I'll choose a tree from my dad's backyard, and treat the roots as has been described. However, don't the trees get rather tall after such a long time? leaving a big length of bare trunk. So that is what has had me confused, basically, the tree don't stay bushy, or is that what chopping the taproot does? Does that mean I should start with a rather small tree.

Also would it be wise to start now, it's fall in Canada now. As for those fake wal-mart bonsai's, I've always steered cleared of them. especially those ficus bonsais that have really stubby thick trunk with one or two leaves on the top. They don't even look like a small tree!

I really appreciate the information, please keep it coming, this information has helped a lot already.
 
  • #14
bushy bonsais are often created by "trunk chopping"
At a certain height (usually quite low) the trunk is chopped off and a new of existing branch is wired up to become the new trunk, over time this branch will become much thicker and then the branch/trunk is chopped again repeating the process.
If done right, the chopping scars will be covered with new bark and it will look like a miniature version of a gnarly old tree.
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATdevelopingtrunksforbonsai.htm
Chopping the taproot forces the tree to make new smaller roots that hopefully spread in such a way it would make a good nebari (roots just above the soil).
Check out www.bonsai4me.com , the most informative bonsai site out there imho.
 
  • #15
Scott is right. Do not buy the trees out of malls and department stores. They did not process roots at all and will be gone with in a month or two. Very sad for the trees, whole sale murder.

As Scott said there are indoor Bonsai, but Bonsai are meant for the outdoors. They require sunshine and lots of watering. The best way to water is from below, that is submerging the pot. It will take in the water. If you choose to water from above make sure it is in a mist form. The mist would be about the size of raindrops to the small tree. My, my, we can get a strong Bonsai group going I think.
 
  • #16
There are many ways to grow bonsai imho.
It will take years for a bonsai to be ready for a bonsai pot (thats usually the last part in bonsai development)
Bonsais are just trees that are pruned often imho.
I believe that anything good enough for trees is good enough for bonsais not in a bonsai pot allrdy.
 
  • #17
Afaik what he does that is different, is he doesnt always has the left right left right branching pattern exactly according to the rules, stuff like holes and deadwood on dedicious trees is also not japanese.
So its not so different, just small details.
Overall his trees more resemble beautifull wild existing specimens, while the japanese are more non existing perfect trees imho.

I think you think the "official rules" are far stricter than they are in reality! ;)
dead wood is very japanese..

and yes, some of the traditional styles can be rather rigid.."formal upright" and all that..
but the Japanese and Chinese traditionally also have cultivated very "natural" looking forms..that is nothing new at all..So I dont think he is really breaking the rules at all..
he isnt doing anything that isnt traditionally done in the Orient..

in fact,,I would say the more natural styles are more common, and much more "traditional" than the more rigid and less natural styles..
the goal has always been to create a very natural looking tree in miniature..dead wood styles are quite revered, and have been around for centuries.
they even have Japanese names..Jin and Shari.

edit:
(oh wait..you said "on decidious trees"..ok, I will grant you that..not common in the orient..I didnt catch that distinction..I see what you mean there..)

Scot
 
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  • #18
Dead wood on coniferous trees is very japanese, dead wood on dedicious trees is not.
I must admit that im just a beginner, and that Walter Palls style isnt by japanese rules is mostly hearsay.
Ive been around on different bonsai forums and often heard rumors of ppl following the japanese style very strictly not being happy with the more naturalistic style of others (maybe thats the "western" school of thought you were talking about ?)
 
  • #19
D'oh, now I'm going to get the bug again too. And I just gave a bunch of maple seedlings away to friends who're reforesting their property. :/
While not really traditional, Eucalyptus make good practice bonsai. They grow very quickly, so you can experiment with them and get informative results while you're still learning the required patience for more delicate trees. (Another nice feature - if you make a really bad mistake, they come back well from stumps. :p ) Just don't try to let them mature in the ground as some advise for other types of trees; many Eucalyptus can reach 20' or more in just a couple of years and are a pain to dig up. Use a burlap sack or the pot-in-ground method if you must.
~Joe
 
  • #20
I grow some seedlings in pondbaskets, the ones that dry out often get really interesting roots.
 
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