i am a redneck......

[rattler]

for those that missed it today there was a heated discussion today bout basically hunting and the like in the chat box......seems because i refused to equate animals to humans i am a "dumb redneck" according to one individual.....evidently its a new guy who doesnt know me or he might have left it as just redneck

to this i say, yep i am a redneck and proud off it......if your enjoying bread with supper tonight or having a beer yah can thank rednecks like me and my family as they have been growing wheat and malt barley around here for most of 100 years.....having beef? ive pulled stuck calves out of distressed mothers that couldnt give birth without help....ive branded calves, castrated steers, lanced infected sores, bucked hay to feed hungry cattle in -40 temps all so those superior folks that buy their meat prepackaged in a supermarket dont have to get their hands dirty......i can point out to you what pasture the beef in my freezer was raised on, can you?

think i got called a stupid redneck cause i refuse to accept that just cause a critter is cute or shows a bit of intelligence it shouldnt be killed.....meat is meat, i can take two 250 pound mule deer buck and butcher them and package them and even make a tub of sausage in under 4 hours.....i eat pheasants, sage and sharptail grouse, and various waterfowl.....i have a personal vendetta against hungarian partridge and kill every one of the dang things my bird dog will get me on within the daily limits.....ive been known to shoot cute and cuddly cottontail rabbits cause i felt like having rabbit stew...... i also pay attention to population studies and dictate my hunting according to them.....in bad years i severely cut back what i take even if Fish and Game figures im prolly ok filling all 8 deer tags they are willing to sell me....

my wife is also a redneck and has killed more head of big game than i have......she also doesnt subscribe to the if its cute it shouldnt be killed......she is a confirmed doe and fawn serial killer.....she isnt stupid though as she holds degrees in computer systems integration and accounting.......together we are owners and run two newspapers and are highly respected amongst our peers even if our papers are in small lil poo-dunk towns...my wife is so well respected USA Today tried to convince her to uproot us and move to the east coast to be one of their editors...

we also donate alot of money to organizations like Ducks Unlimited and Delta Waterfowl which have done more to save wetlands in the US and Canada than any other groups.....you like seeing pronghorn and elk outside national parks? thank redneck hunters like me and my wife......its ppl like us that saved them from being wiped out not the treehugger types that like to do rallys and such but refuse to actually open their wallets wide and also get their hands dirty and volunteer their time out in the field doing the work thats needed to actually save critters.....

prolly also hurt my case with this individual that i said some critters need killing, when the ground squirrels and rabbits get to thick around here i spend time on family ranches thinning them out, the individual stated that if i didnt shoot all the coyotes and foxes and such they would eat the surplus of critters.....seems the individual has no clue how ecosystems actually work and that critters like squirrels and rabbits go through booms and busts......yeah the preditors eat some and their population increases with but much slower than is needed and once the population of rodents gets to high a whole lot of them start starving to death.....there are plenty of coyotes, foxes and hawks to eat the rodents, i rarely shoot predators anymore......but the predators that are here dont slow down a boom cycle....

yes im a redneck and so are my family and we dont apologize for it, i dont think cause a critter is cute it shouldnt be killed, i know where the animals in my freezer come from as do my kids and we have no illusions that they magically appear cut and wrapped on store shelves......we are rednecks and when the food in your local grocery store aint there i aint gonna worry bout it cause we will have no problem feeding ourselves....

 

[Kyle]

This strikes me as at least ranty and unnecessary, but maybe even offensive to the right groups of people. This is going to stir the pot more than it needed to be and cause more drama than it would ever have solved.

That said, I have utmost respect for the people that are willing to get their hands dirty and do the hard work so that the rest of society can live such comfortable lives. I have a funny feeling that if everyone had to raise and prepare their own food, there'd be a whole lot more vegetarians in the world. But that's getting into something we don't need to. The point is that, as thez said it, you gotta have people at both ends of the spectrum: the ones that produce the product, and the ones that consume it. For anyone that buys meat or vegetables or anything else produced by a "red neck," thus supporting them, to turn around and disrespect them is just silly. It's ignorant and offensive, even to me who is not part of the insulted group. I don't know who the offender was and I'm not going to look into it. As far as I'm concerned, if that's the attitude they have and they are indeed new, it'll be made clear to me and the rest of the community given some time anyway.

I wasn't present during the chat and I have not and will not look into it. The background information is irrelevant to what I'm about to say. rattler, you most definitely didn't deserve to be disrespected for (what appears to be the case) being a hunter or raising livestock or what have you. The way you live more than likely has no negative effect on any of us. Indeed, if any effect, it's probably positive (if the case is that you raise livestock for commercial purposes or whatever, thus making the lives of those that consume meat much easier). You've made it clear, and I'm glad, that you have no shame for doing so. I'm not sure what affliction causes people to so harshly judge others or the way others live their lives. Especially when such hypocrisy is involved. Granted, some people are heavily opinionated; I, for sure, am one of those, as my signature points out. My heavy opinionation, however, is not equivalent to judgmentalism. For example: Do I hunt? No. Do I like the idea of hunting? No, for various reasons. Do I have anything at all against other people not sharing that sentiment? A resounding "no." People need to learn to live their lives the way that makes them happy and respect the fact that others may not be made happy by the same circumstances and practices. Not to mention to be a little more grateful for those that make their lives so comfortable.

rattler, you shouldn't (and I don't think you have) let such petty insults get to you. If anything, maybe I'd be sad for the person that is so sure they're better than you because they have different opinions than you. Indeed, it must be a lonely life.

 

[lizasaur]

While I can't speak on behalf of everyone, things were really heated earlier. And when our passion and our beliefs get the better of us, things may get lost in translation, so to speak. Or things may just be misspoken and in turn, misinterpreted. Allowing things to escalate blindly- I'm certainly guilty of this.

And yes, in my ideal world, no animals would be killed by humans, whether it be for food or because their population needs to be controlled. But I understand that the world isn't ideal. And so, the next best thing is compromise to retain peace.

While I can respect your efforts to be a responsible hunter, as I said previously, nothing more can be asked if you'll be partaking in that activity...I think you're too quick to write off the animals you kill, to dismiss their capacity to form bonds and feel pain. The branding, the castration....they're as excruciating for those animals as they would be for you or me. Unless your better raising practices include the extra expense for anesthetic, but judging from the restraint required in those pictures, I would have to say you don't. And as long as you choose to inflict unnecessary pain upon these creatures for no better sake than because "they taste good"...it's well. It's cruel and ignorant. No sweet way to say it.

Yes, it's great of you for having the balls to get your own meat, albeit it's still not a fair fight, but you do more than most people would, so for that, kudos. You certainly deserve to eat whatever you go out and kill. And the conservation efforts you do are to be applauded, thank you. But it'll always tarnished by your black and white "people or animals" perspective. That is by your choice, so to attack those that are offended/upset/hurt by your conscious choice to inflict needless suffering and express your touchy views in such a crass way...is unfair and unnecessary. Be prepared for it and let it roll off your shoulders rather than kick the wasp nest and try to prove whatever it is you're trying to, to people that weren't involved in the first place.

 

[Lucanidae]

I would just like to say, that while it's lovely that you hunt for FOOD, and not just for sport, the dead deer really was unnecessary. As reaper said, I believe you're stirring the pot, but I digress.
It seems to me that the chat was incredibly long and arduous, and after awhile, failed to have a point.
It did not need to last for hours, and the fact that it's come to this magnitude is honestly quite disappointing. I watched some of the convo take place, and felt that nobody really was getting a point across. Everyone was so steadfast in their opinions (which is admirable to a point), that nothing was to be achieved.
Nobody seemed to understand each other, and how could they? Such opposite sides of the spectrum, y'know?
About the insult; people say things when they're frustrated or confronted with values and beliefs that they are strongly against. Why let a insult like that get to you?
Nobody's complaining about you calling them environmentalist wackos or treehuggers, or your methods of demeaning their thought processes and core beliefs by saying "just cause a critter is cute or shows a bit of intelligence it shouldnt be killed". You mentioned multiple times that these people believe they need to protect "the cute little animals", just for the sake of being "cute". Perhaps I should create a thread about that.
Either way, this all seems incredibly silly to me.
My belief:
Have issues? Settle it through a PM.

 

[carnivoure12]

It's a good thing you decided to clearly state your believes rattler. I know there will always be someone to disagree with you, or just about everyone else, and that's fine.

I'm personally not into the hunting thing, but understand your points of view, and the fact that hunters are huge supporters of good causes, which I learned from you. We, as humans believe in ourselves too highly. Obviously we don't know everything, and perhaps making assumptions about what animals feel or think doesn't make sense unless we find a way to be in the animal's body and experience the way think.

Only one thing bothers me; yes, the majority of us are in our world where we go to our local grocery store, and hallelujah everything is there served on giant cold silver platers. But this isn't necessarily our decision, we can't just tear the grocery store and build a farm to meet the needs of the community. But I'm sure you know that!

Everyone, I don't think he made this thread because he felt bad about what the meber told him, but to make everything clear, so everyone knowns what he is about. Life is the warmth in this cold universe sheltering us from the ignorance and indifference of existence. Heck, what we might think of conscience might not turn out to be as libreal as believed. The human mind can't comprehend what lies beyond those boundaries, because it can't exist.

 

[dashman]

We all need to realize that we are all different.

I believe it is in our nature to eat meat. We have been hunters and gatherers for millions of years. Only in the last few specks of time have we had the luxury of deciding which types of foods we would like to eat explicitly. Our closest primate relatives are the same way and dare I say it, are cannabalistic as well against neighbouring tribes.

I admire those who want to rise above thier own DNA, but nobody should be condescending against those who do not share thier own beliefs. This goes for all folks here. I didn't see any of the chat session, and I am not directing this towards anyone. This is more of a commentary that most likely nobody cares two sheets about.

Beefeaters and Carrotcrunchers UNITE!

 

[dionae]

Almost everyone hunts here. You see some kind of animals head in half the homes. Guess its all about location. I'm in the sticks with the country folk. Hunting is as normal as drinking water here.

I don't hunt. Not out of love for animals or anything but I just don't like killing anything....and definitely not dressing or cleaning. I will eat the meat though. Nothing like a half of a hog roasting over a big ol' pit or a lil deer sausage and steak every now and then.

 

[rattler]

the poster im refering to didnt get to me, just find it funny that some think "redneck" is a bad thing......those that do usually are those that have spent their lives in a city and have never got their hands dirty, be it by butchering or something as simple as planting a garden cause your family truly depends on it for food, not cause its just something you enjoy to do.....

and i never said critters dont feel pain, just said they arent equal to ppl......you cant hold ppl to the standards of animal nor animals to the standards of ppl.....in the chat i said animals are neither good nor bad they just are....to be good or bad requires a conscience and animals do not have one......doesnt make us better than animals just makes us different.....animals feel pain, animals do show affection, animals can be intelligent.....hell ive been around some stock dogs that im positive are smarter than some ppl.....but trying to raise an animal to the level of a human and project human qualities is wrong.......

the above post was mostly cause i find it funny what some think is an insult.....

as for the branding pics and restraint required, branding is the law, and cattle rustling still happens.....

 

[8abug4fun]

you were called a "redneck", not a "stupid redneck" because of the equally condescending and insulting way you said "figures you're from Calif." and the equally insulting & condescending way you sum up my(& other people's) arguments to "critters shouldn't be killed cuz they're cute & show some intelligence". I never said or implied that & i doubt you could restate any of my points with any accuracy whatsoever(without refering back to the archive).
You have your way of living, behaving, surviving, etc.& sincerely, good for you, but don't present it on open discussion if you don't want to hear any comment about it and are going to be so deffensive of it, yourself & your beliefs. Do what you want but don't rub it in other people's faces if you don't want to hear other points of view and don't want to be open to questioning your own way of thinking, behaving, living.
I respect some of your animal killing choices and reasoning and disagree with others. Several of your rationalizations are legitimate and many are hypocritical & contradictory & vague. your attitude toward others opinions & arguments are condescending & defensive so that you don't have to actually consider them or take them seriously.
Good luck & living to you in beautiful Montana. you are blessed to be living in such a beautiful rich place.

 

[rattler]

given you said i was full of it when i said hunters do more for animal conservation than any other group pretty well proves you dont know much bout the history of conservation.....

and i only said "figures your from California" because of my experience with Californians in general.....they leave California for here cause things in California are so bad than try in turn here into California part 2......big city idiots who have spent no time in nature are the ones that forced wolves on us here in Montana, never mind that wolves were already here, never mind that even though the wolves are at 3 times the carrying capacity of the land according to the scientists who the tree hugger types hired we still arent allowed to control them.....

and atleast my opinions are made from spending time in nature with the critters, watching populations of animals go through their ups and downs and what causes them......i know wolves will kill just to kill, not cause they are hungry, just like a cat will or a badger or a fox or any other natural predator.....i know predators dont focus just on sick and dieing and will take out healthy animals.....and most of all i dont view the animals as bad because of it, do view some of the actions as incompatible with raising food for the ppl in the cities and predator populations have to be managed for it.....and do realize the problem isnt the wolves but the idiots in California or New York sitting in their apartments that have no clue how the natural world works causing the real problems by filing law suits to keep us from managing wildlife......

 

[Presto]

Guys, we're all going to have different opinions on issues like this, and that's fine. What's NOT fine is attacking each other rather than debating the issue. Please respect your fellow TF members and their points of view. No personal attacks or public arguments.

 

[rattler]

im more than willing to argue facts.....Ducks Unlimited, a hunting organization, has helped preserve around 60 million acres of wetlands.....name one non hunting organization that has saved anywhere close....

the pronghorn was brought back from the edge of extinction by conservation minded hunters that wanted them around for their grandchildren to hunt

hunters have reintroduced elk to vast areas where they were wiped out not cause ppl like to see them cause ppl like to hunt them and hunters were the ones willing to fork over the dough to get it done....

its sportsmen like myself voluntarily paying more for our Montana fishing licenses paying for the hatchery to save the endangered pallid sturgeon after no one else wanted to pony up the cash to save the ugly, bottom dwelling mud sucker.....

its hunters paying for the anti poaching patrols that have saved the elephant from the brink of extinction....

its hunting dollars that have brought the black rhino back from extinction cause photo tourist dollars werent enough to even make a dent in the poaching....

its hunting dollars that are saving the giant sable after it was recently rediscovered after thought to be extinct cause the non hunter conservation groups either refuse to help or dont chip in enough to matter....

i challenge anyone to prove these statements wrong......

 

[millworkman]

I think I love you rattler...

 

[Presto]

I think hunters by-and-large have a good understanding and appreciation for ecology, and I think that's why I respect you guys. By ecology I mean the way that animal populations naturally rise, fall, interact with one another. There are basically no natural predators of deer left in my area, and their population is going unchecked. As a result, there isn't enough food for them...many are starving to death. As much as I love animals, I can see why hunting is actually good for them as a whole. Much less cruel to die from a gunshot than to slowly starve.

This is where I'm a little lost on the wolf issue, though. This justification for hunting, in that it keeps deer etc. populations in check, is based on the fact that natural predators are lacking. Wolves' numbers are rebounding, which ought to restore that balance as nature intended. Yet, hunters are pushing to hunt wolves, citing reasons such as their killing livestock. (Surely there must be a way of protecting livestock from wolves? Guard donkeys?) Other than that, I simply don't understand why allowing a natural top predator to rebound is a bad thing. Wouldn't it eliminate the "need" for hunters to hunt so many deer, etc? If there truly is that legitimate concern for keeping natural populations in balance, then why not allow them to return to equilibrium?

 

[amphirion]

@emily: i think it's because conservation issues arent thoroughly understood, and the people making these laws dont understand what's going on in both the micro and macro scale. im guessing in montana, wolves are doing too well to the point that they've tripled their original population. i think the problem here is that this ESA is protecting ALL of the wolf's original distribution....and there lies the problem---you either drop the wolf completely, or you keep it, you cant release protection region by region. you could argue to move wolves from montana and reintroduce them to other areas in the US that are lacking, but you couldnt do that because people are anal about preserving genetic diversity--by introducing "foreign" wolves into a new region you'd muddy up the original population gene pool and everything goes to the crapper apparently...

 

[8abug4fun]

well, it looks like you've once again condescendingly pigeon-holed me into a conveniently demonic-for-you role.
I have a lot more thoughts on this whole topic but won't bother to share them with you since you obviously have no sincere desire to hear or consider any points of view that may differ from your own. You just want to be right. and so, everyone who thinks differently will be wrong. so congratulations! isn't it easy to win when you're the only one that you think is qualified & allowed to compete?! Be happy in your beautiful, if not sheltered, corner of the world. give my love, respect & blessings to all the "cute li'l critters" in your neck of the woods before you conveniently & "sportingly" terminate their annoying, inconvenient, pesky insignificant little lives.

 

[Lucanidae]

Woah woah woah.
Seriously?
Can we show some civility and save the anger for PMs?

 

[Rball]

GET R DONE!!! i hear u with hunting, butchering and all i grew up on a farm we had 283 head of cattle all dairy, All of wich went to NYC. We never had to buy milk, beaf, eggs or chicken. Now that i think about it we never had to buy much. We grew our own food and raised or own meat. No matter where we are in the world and no matter what we think ther is going to be someone who thinks other wise. We just need to realize there are millions of people out there and noones the same. So be kind and respectful for the fact that we are different. Imagine a world where we all were exactly the same. I dont knwo about u but that would be sooooooooooo boring.

 

[Ginteal]

you were called a "redneck", not a "stupid redneck" because of the equally condescending and insulting way you said "figures you're from Calif." and the equally insulting & condescending way you sum up my(& other people's) arguments to "critters shouldn't be killed cuz they're cute & show some intelligence". I never said or implied that & i doubt you could restate any of my points with any accuracy whatsoever(without refering back to the archive).
You have your way of living, behaving, surviving, etc.& sincerely, good for you, but don't present it on open discussion if you don't want to hear any comment about it and are going to be so deffensive of it, yourself & <a href="http://www.bcduplication.com" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0) ! important; text-decoration: none ! important; cursor: default ! important;">cd pinting quote</a>. Do what you want but don't rub it in other people's faces if you don't want to hear other points of view and don't want to be open to questioning your own way of thinking, behaving, living. I respect some of your animal killing choices and reasoning and disagree with others. Several of your rationalizations are legitimate and many are hypocritical & contradictory & vague. your attitude toward others opinions & arguments are condescending & defensive so that you don't have to actually consider them or take them seriously.
Good luck & living to you in beautiful Montana. you are blessed to be living in such a beautiful rich place.

Live your life and dont get stressed out about what others say or think

 

[Rball]

i agree with gin, because at the end of the day does it really matter what others think? you are still you and im still me. And as for everyone, if you bring up a topic in the main chat you are bound to get ppls opinions. If u dont want theirs then dont write certain things. If you are going to disrepsect somone do it as PM.