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The National Debt: A Cheery Subject . . .

  • Thread starter BigBella
  • Start date
  • #21
allie.jpg
 
  • #22
I was wondering when something political was going to be posted... Been a while. LOL

Here it goes...

I think we should just RAISE TAXES and start paying off our debt...keep everything the way it is but RAISE TAXES. Once citizens see the real costs of all the services they're getting, let Congress trim off things that the public doesn't want to pay for. This way we don't get further in debt, start paying it off, and we take a more realistic look at what government should and should not do.

Therein lies the problem. I don't recall exact numbers, but every man, woman, and child's "fair share" is around
50000. A staggering amount, but when you take into account that children, elderly, low-income, etc do not pay taxes at all and you divy the debt up to just taxpayers, the number is more like 400000 per household of people who actually have to pay tax.

So you see if they were to flat out raise taxes by 100% and everybody pay double it would still take a considerable amount of time to pay down the debt (100 years or more).

Now this is not to mention all of the existing programs that we are obliged to continue like Medicare, Social Security, Obamacare, etc. So it will take us the next 100 years to pay off existing debt all the while we continue to rack up current obligations in the red.

The time to get out of debt under normal circumstances has came and gone. Everyone on Capital Hill knows this, they just don't want you to. There are ways to pay back the debt, which is most likely what will happen as it is what has been done in previous Central Bank run countries thoughout the past. It is called monetization of the debt. Which I will explain later.

Monetization of the debt has occured many times in the past in other countries. Paying back the debt has occured zero times (to my knowledge).

just way too many things going on, national debt caused by synergistic effects--raising taxes against the middle/lower class, entitlement/pension programs, legal/illegal outsourcing, etc etc etc....gotta address multiple problems and not go out guns ablazing against one issue and make it sound as it is sole culprit for the crisis (which i bet they're going to do, just to get the people off their back)
Order through chaos. Always keep them guessing.
And on a side note, I watched this ridiculous conspiracy video pretty much acting like a marketing ploy, HOWEVER, some of the things it touches on are kinda sorta true, and it provides some quite interesting history on us defaulting and the world moving away from the dollar being the world's currency...If anyone's interested....
I would not label this consiracy theory. If you know current events, you will know that many nations are lobbying heavily to uproot the US Dollar as the worlds reserve currency. This has happened before with the old reserve currency, the British Sterling. And under similar circumstances. I urge you to take a look at what happened during that time in British History to get a glimps of what can and will happen here if the dollar is ever removed as the worlds reserve currency. The impact here will be far more severe I believe due to the large deficit.

This guy is simply reading the writing on the wall and acting accordingly. Obviously he is trying to make a buck by selling his investment strategies, but it is hardly consiracy theory. I think the word "Consiracy Theory" is thrown around more often than not when someone challenges the status quo and it is thrown out by those who are charged with maintaining the status quo. I tend to listen to these so called "nut jobs" because although I may not agree with everything they say, they are always questioning what is attempting to be shoved down our throat.


My personal belief is this whole "crisis" was manufactured. Why 14 trillion and not 10 trillion, or 5 trilltion, or even 25 Trillion for that matter. It's a primer for what's coming. Desensitization therapy, so to speak.

It's no secret I am a big fan of Ron Paul, I think he is the most accurate of what is coming if things are left to run their course. The debt will have to be monetized at some point. Under Central Banking and Deficit Spending (aka keynesian economics) this is an eventuality. This will be especially true if we lose our reserve currency status because debts will begin to be called in. Once monetization happens, the 'ol US of A will become a 2nd maybe even 3rd world country overnight. It will make dollars worthless more or less. A big reason why those conspiracy theorists are buying up silver and gold.

Funny that others call people buying gold and silver "conspiracy theorist" when they are presently in the same company of Central Banks, China, billionaires, and hedge fund managers.

Obviously selling ones house and car to buy up useless metal is stupid, but a wise man never puts all of his eggs in one basket. Are you really diversified if all of your investments are in US Dollars? What is to protect you from US politicians in that scenario? BTW, have you noticed that China has limited the amount of money a person can exchange to Yuan? Billionaires and Banks are still getting as much as they can even while it is still pegged to the dollar. What is it they know that you do not I wonder.

That's my thought on the subject anyways.

---------- Post added at 02:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 PM ----------


I myself have outgrown the partisan finger pointing. They are both at fault.

Reminds me of a chain email I received recently. I normally don't even read chain emails, but this one was an article from a retiring journalist which puts things in perspective a little...

545 vs. 300,000,000 People
-By Charlie Reese

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and
then campaign against them.

Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are
against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?

Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and
high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The President does.

You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on
appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.

You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one President, and nine Supreme
Court justices equates to 545 human beings out of the 300 million are
directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the
domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem
was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its
Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally
chartered, but private, central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason.
They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator,
a congressman, or a President to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't
care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The
politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the
lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine
how he votes.

Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that
what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con
regardless of party.

What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive
amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker,
who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits.. The
President can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to
accept it.

The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole
responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and
approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House now?
He is the leader of the majority party.. He and fellow House members,
not the President, can approve any budget they want. If the President
vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.

It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million cannot replace
545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence
and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is
not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the
plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal
government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to
exist.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.

If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red.

If the Army & Marines are in Iraq and Afghanistan it's because they want
them in Iraq and Afghanistan ...

If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement
plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.

There are no insoluble government problems.

Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they
hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and
advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to
regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let
them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical
forces like "the economy," "inflation," or "politics" that prevent them
from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.

They, and they alone, have the power.

They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are
their bosses.

Provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees...

We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper.
 
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  • #23
Nice thoughts dash

And nice interpretation. I am there with you in that labels are put on things that challenge popular or accepted belief. Although extreme, that stuff really did happen in those countries....as you mentioned. Scary for me to think how cant what happened to the British happen to us with that situation in front of us.
 
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  • #24
Really nice chain email.

Of course it was kind of like preaching to choir for me, but good to read over again.

The two party system has made a mockery and a shame out of what was once a great democracy.
 
  • #25
We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

Aw, that's so cute, someone who still thinks voting actually changes something! :lol:
 
  • #26
I don't know how you guys are getting 50,000 dollars per person... I divided 114,500,000,000,000 by
308,745,538 (population of the US at the last census) and got $ 370,855.56 per person!
 
  • #27
I don't know how you guys are getting 50,000 dollars per person... I divided 114,500,000,000,000 by
308,745,538 (population of the US at the last census) and got $ 370,855.56 per person!

...and I don't know where you got 114 trillion as the debt...
 
  • #28
Aw, that's so cute, someone who still thinks voting actually changes something!
I know, pretty quaint 'eh. LOL. No harm in trying though.

I don't know how you guys are getting 50,000 dollars per person... I divided 114,500,000,000,000 by
308,745,538 (population of the US at the last census) and got $ 370,855.56 per person!

I am using the current debt 14,000,000,000,000 and dividing by 300million. Then rounding. You are using 114 Trillion which is not yet debt, it is money not yet borrowed but what is known to be needed to pay for all of those programs the government has promised to people.

370K per person. Yeah that's alot. When you take into account almost half of those 300 million people pay no taxes at all then we are placing a very heavy burden on those that do.

...and I don't know where you got 114 trillion as the debt...

The 114 trillion is the estimated total obligation of the US government (and this number was provided by the US Goverment) to fulfill what it has promised.


"The 114.5 Trillion dollar super-skyscraper is the amount of money the U.S. Government
knows it does not have to fully fund the Medicare, Medicare Prescription Drug Program,
Social Security, Military and civil servant pensions. It is the money USA knows it will not
have to pay all its bills."

Now there is alot of controversy over this number. Sadly, the controversy is that it is too low. The government is notoriously optimistic when it comes to projecting it's own obligations. Also, I'm not sure if Obama Care is even included in this number. I've heard the number closer to 165 Trillion.
 
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  • #29
Having solved all the country's problems, and having nothing else pressing to attend to, the United States Government gives itself the entire month of August off for vacation..they will be back to work after Labor Day..

Scot
 
  • #30
Yes, it's hard work pressing voting buttons on laws someone else wrote to enact something 99% of them haven't even read but were told to vote that way by someone other than thier constituents.

I guess the bright side is that at least you know while they are gone no more damage to be done.
 
  • #32
I hope they do fall of the cliff.

Both parties just disagree on HOW they waste money, not IF they should waste money. Democrats want wasteful government programs and Republicans wan't wasteful wars and tax cuts for rich.

And no one is even touching defense spending.
 
  • #33
I hope they do fall of the cliff.

Both parties just disagree on HOW they waste money, not IF they should waste money. Democrats want wasteful government programs and Republicans wan't wasteful wars and tax cuts for rich.

And no one is even touching defense spending.

Good point. Reminds me of the book I recently read. Here is the preface which I think sums it up nicely...

PREFACE
Every election cycle we are treated to candidates who promise us "change," and 2008 has been no different. But in the American political lexicon, "change" always means more of the same: more government, more looting of Americans, more inflation, more police-state measures, more unnecessary war, and more centralization of power.

Real change would mean something like the opposite of those things. It might even involve following our Constitution. And that’s the one option Americans are never permitted to hear.

Today we are living in a fantasy world. Our entitlement programs are insolvent: in a couple of decades they will face a shortfall amounting to tens of trillions of dollars. Meanwhile, the housing bubble is bursting and our dollar is collapsing. We are borrowing billions from China every day in order to prop up a bloated overseas presence that weakens our national defense and stirs up hostility against us. And all our political class can come up with is more of the same.

One columnist puts it like this: we are borrowing from Europe in order to defend Europe, we are borrowing from Japan in order to keep cheap oil flowing to Japan, and we are borrowing from Arab regimes in order to install democracy in Iraq. Is it really “isolationism” to find something wrong with this picture?

With national bankruptcy looming, politicians from both parties continue to make multi-trillion dollar promises of “free” goods from the government, and hardly a soul wonders if we can still afford to have troops in – this is not a misprint – 130 countries around the world. All of this is going to come to an end sooner or later, because financial reality is going to make itself felt in very uncomfortable ways. But instead of thinking about what this means for how we conduct our foreign and domestic affairs, our chattering classes seem incapable of speaking in anything but the emptiest platitudes, when they can be bothered to address serious issues at all. Fundamental questions like this, and countless others besides, are off the table in our mainstream media, which focuses our attention on trivialities and phony debates as we march toward oblivion.

This is the deadening consensus that crosses party lines, that dominates our major media, and that is strangling the liberty and prosperity that were once the birthright of Americans. Dissenters who tell their fellow citizens what is really going on are subject to smear campaigns that, like clockwork, are aimed at the political heretic. Truth is treason in the empire of lies.

There is an alternative to national bankruptcy, a bigger police state, trillion-dollar wars, and a government that draws ever more parasitically on the productive energies of the American people. It’s called freedom. But as we’ve learned through hard experience, we are not going to hear a word in its favor if our political and media establishments have anything to say about it.

If we want to live in a free society, we need to break free from these artificial limitations on free debate and start asking serious questions once again. I am happy that my campaign for the presidency has finally raised some of them. But this is a long-term project that will persist far into the future. These ideas cannot be allowed to die, buried beneath the mind-numbing chorus of empty slogans and inanities that constitute official political discourse in America.

That is why I wrote this book.


The Revolution, a manifesto.
Dr. Ron Paul
 
  • #34
I hear that everyone talks about Ron Paul, but I'm curious about everyone's opinion on Ralph Nader.
 
  • #36
As a late leftover from the hippy era, I was a proponent of self sufficient living long before it became popular (now considered "green"). We saw this coming long before it was so obvious, and yet so many people still can't see what is happening.

For most people,
as long as their own lives is not obviously affected at the very moment,
they could care less about the activities of politicians & government.

Give them their amusements & distractions, their new styles, possessions, toys, TV's, CD's, cell phones, video games, & every other technological form of "entertainment", and they will go on their merry way, blind to the activities of their political "leaders". (We are blinded by our own technological inventions.)
Turning a blind eye to the behavior of our government can only work for a while.

Our currency is becoming totally worthless, its value only balanced out by increased unemployment. No wonder gold & other metals are being bought up at record prices.

I think it was wrong for our country to stop using gold & silver (and even copper) for its currency, as was once the standard. Our "founding fathers" knew the reason for it, & people have since lost the understanding of it. Our paper money & "common metal" coins are worthless. We might as well trade Manhattan Island and our property for a handful of shells!) Our money & coins have no innate value as they once did. (For those of you old enough to remember the true "ring" of "real" silver & copper coins jingling in your pocket, you know how "dead" sounding our "money" really is today.

Civilizations have risen & fallen in the past. The USA was once one of the greatest & most powerful & advanced nations on the planet. Its past generations of people built it up from near nothing. They took pride in their work, made things of the highest quality. And they did it all without the use of many of the machines, devices and especially computers that we have today! Now how did they do that? Here we are so smart today, that we can't even count change for a dollar, write a letter or find our way to the next town without the use of a computer!

(I still remember that when something said "made in Japan/China" on it, we knew it was crap and would likely be of inferior quality! Now it seems everything Americans want, is made there!) We may have won wars, but indeed we ultimately LOST!

In the end, we have allowed other nations to take us over! They own our companies, our farmland, and many of our resources. Our debt to other nations shows how much we "consume & buy" from them, but no longer sell nor supply them as we once did.
We pretty much don't produce "hard goods" in this country any more! We have & produce nothing to sell to anyone!

For some reason, our new generations feel entitled (why I do not know) to the finer things in life. Yet by getting things they are made weak by their lack of work ethics, integrity & knowledge. They have no desire to work, but sure want to be rich...and quick! And it seems that is the new American "way". One person or small group becomes millionaires while all the "peons" who actually do most all the real "work" at a company barely make enough to survive. And forget about retiring! Social Security that we were forced to pay into has been stolen by our own government! (Where is accountability for that!? The people responsible should be held accountable & they & their families made to pay it back!)

Even on a personal level, things we created/invented to help us, have actually harmed us. First we allowed automation to help us do our work, but eventually it replaced workers... and now computers do our thinking, and look how many people loose their jobs every time we depend on it do do more for us. Not only that, but it weakens us as a people. Forget about interacting with others, learning to do or think for ourselves.... let the computer do it! (So many people I know can't even find their way across town anymore without their GPS telling them where to go!... and with remote control of everything, we can sit on our butts to do things. Everything from changing the TV channel to mailing a letter or paying a bill is automatic, although now we have to go to a health club to exercise our fat lazy bodies!) And forget customer service! It is all automated! And most of us know how good a job automated phone service is! The person who came up with that should be tortured on "hold" for the rest of their lives!

As a result of our technology, inventions & advances, where has it gotten us? What was designed to help us has been allowed to make us become lazy, inept, and even unable to think for ourselves. (How many cashiers can't even count change back to us, or think logically when there is obviously incorrect information presented... "well that's what the computer says" is their only retort.)
Even here on TF, many new people have gotten lazy, and find it easier to ask how to do every little thing, basic knowledge about growing or what to plant in, instead of bothering to look up the information for themselves. This is not the way we used to do things, and indeed not the best way to actually learn things.
A person won't know what questions to ask, that may be the most important things to learn, unless they actually get off their butts to start doing something for them selves!

Indeed, our nation & that of others is in a volatile position.
Change is coming. Things cannot continue as they are for much longer.

With all our current advances in the past 200 years, the men who started this nation were in many ways still so much smarter than we are today. In fact, they themselves went thru much political "mis-representation" and abuse as we ourselves are experiencing, and they stood together & formed this nation to get away from it. And yet here we are, back where we started! How they must be turning over in their graves!

Our "political parties" can't work together on the simplest of things, and as is said, "a house divided is doomed to fall". Personally, either no one should be allowed to serve more than a couple terms, or we need to begin holding people accountable again. While it could be a good thing to serve many terms if there are good, honest people of integrity in office, it also allows controlling people who serve the interests of select groups to remain in control & ultimately use the system to serve a chosen few/group. Actually, I like the idea of holding those in authority accountable, and their punishments severe. As they are in a higher than normal position, then they should rightly be held to a higher standard of accountability. And most of all, they should NOT have a different (and better) system of retirement/pension/health-care etc.
And one out of office, they should NOT be paid or guarded or given any other benefits that the normal citizen doesn't get! Politics is a service one does for their country, not a profession! History is littered with tyrants who think they are destined for that position! No matter how they may justify the position by giving it an acceptable name and image, they are all the same.

It has been said that those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.
Civilization collapse has happened before.... and to think it can't happen to us is just plain arrogance & ignorance.

Well, that's my opinion, thoughts, & some of the things I think about these days (and in days past).
I am not well versed in politics nor many other things of that sort. However when I see things happening to decent people (like Tamlin recently), it is an indication that even people who are highly educated, high paid and in high political office are not that "wise" either! Why we spend tax dollars on petty things is something only those living high in a governmental position can explain. (And don't get me started on the foolish "grants" that our government has funded, or the nations we have given money to.)

Personally, we can blame & point fingers all we want. The bottom line is that this mess is happening. The real issue is what each of us are going to do about it!? Our nation is no longer strong as it used to be. Its people were once of a caliber that could "pull themselves up by their boot-straps. Well, what kind of people are we today? Do you really think you are as strong, enduring & resourceful as your grandparents & great grandparents? They endured wars, depressions, and disasters of every kind. Can you?

Jeez, I hear people moaning when it gets too hot out, or immobilized when their GPS or internet doesn't work for a few hours! And they totally freak if their cable, computers or cell phones stop working. They can't even count change or remember their appointments!
We have put all our "eggs" into this new lifestyle, this "technology" basket. If & when it becomes unavailable or stops working, what then? Wake up people! You can't even function without it anymore!

In time past, I and many others thought & tried "living off the grid", but the reality of it is that it is a lot harder than people think... especially if you don't have a chunk of money to start things rolling (to purchase solar/wind electric generator equipment, food production & storage equipment, fuel of some sort, etc.) Self sufficiency is a difficult position to acquire & maintain. Yet those of us who used to favor Mother Earth News & the Whole Earth Catalog; side products of the "Age of Aquarius" era, we saw this mess coming back in the 60's & wanted a different life from it! We saw the good in it, but also saw what we were losing in exchange for this technological "ease".
It wasn't that long ago that it was safe for a kid to ride his bike alone across town. People didn't put up with disrespect. We discriminated against people of poor standards, bad influences and didn't tolerate people who abused others. We respected our elders, including parents, grandparents & those with more experience, and saw the wisdom that they held.

Sad to say, I find myself becoming too old, too sick & too broke to do much about preparing for things for myself anymore. My wife missed the city life back when we owned property out in the country , (and the "green acres" lifestyle was not for her!) so we have spent the past 30+ years addicted to the grid. Not a good choice in some ways, but then as I said, life is hard surviving off the "grid" without a good financial start.
Had we stayed out in the country "living off the land", I likely would be dead by now anyway! (Thru accident or just plain over-working hard labor.) (If you don't know what I mean, try splitting a cord of wood, let alone enough to keep you warm for a winter!) But seeing as I am still here, I am hoping for the best, but realizing the worst may lie ahead.
Indeed it seems that the way things are going in this country, whether we want to do it or not, we are in for "a different lifestyle" very soon!

As far as the current decisions being made by our government these days, time will tell the results. For some reason we have allowed our politicians to operate under a different system than the one most of us are under. And yet we allow them to make decisions affecting our systems (Like social security, health care, retirement...)
One thing we don't do is hold the people in office RESPONSIBLE for their decisions and actions. No wonder there is so much corruption & abuse, as well as simple foolish decision-making. (I am not old enough to remember public executions, but history documents its place time & again as a viable course of action!)
Indeed, some chaotic future may be in store for us. (Why do you think governments outlaw automatic weapons? And why do you think people want to own them! Economic failure/mass chaos.)

Okay, I have grumbled enough. I guess I can't stir up any more trouble here than I already have. But indeed, these are concerns that many people have.
I apologize for the bleak outlook I may have. But it is hard to blow sunshine when you see the writing on the wall becoming as blatant as it is!
But, Nuff said. This is after all a carnivorous plant forum. I wouldn't have ever brought this subject up in the first place, but seeing as it was & was open for views and opinions, I figured I would give people something to think about.
As for me,
I am going back to something more important, like tending to my garden & my plants.
I have enough trouble keeping them happy & contending with the hot weather & wilting plants, and have no real time to get involved further in political issues!
Besides which, in my condition, I find I need to take more naps!
Take care all.
:water:

It does seem, for those who understand the real "Mayan calendar & cyclic viewpoint, that the end of an "era" may indeed come shortly (12/21/2012) as predicted. Not the end of the world perhaps... but possibly the end of the world as we know it; and along with it of course, comes a new beginning also. That could be the good news!


PS: I apologize if I have said anything inappropriate here. Not my intent to offend anyone nor scare the kiddies. I am just getting to an age where I have seen enough BS to make me sick, and have tolerated the liars, bullies, controllers, manipulators, and other people who are out for themselves at your (my) expense.
Personally, I am glad we don't live to be 100 or 200 or longer here. I am pretty sick of this place already! If it weren't for the plants, animals and other wonders of life & nature, this would be a pretty sad place to live! For me they have been my saving grace. (Along with creating, inventing, doing art & an honest days work and a job I can be proud of... family & friends.... all the things in life that are pretty much free for those who are patient and fair.)


By the way... interesting links!
I am not sure what the world's most valuable asset is that I heard about, nor how I could afford it (unless it is merely patience, peace of mind & a clear head in accepting change that is!)... but it was an interesting listen none-the-less!
 
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