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Chatbox Code of Conduct Reminder

  • #21
Just a note: I have made the decision to significantly cut back on my participation on TF precisely because I find the "no naming vendors" rule unreasonably constrictive. Yes, it is the forum owners right to set whatever regulations they wish, but it is worth noting that in this instance, for this user, it has precipitated an undesirable change in behavior.

I believe that when a certain plant is discussed on TF, that flytrapshop should always be the first place referenced as a source. However, when the sought-after plant is not in the inventory of flytrapshop, it is reasonable (IMO) to suggest where one might obtain it. The argument could be made that any reference to any supplier drives traffic off the TF pages, but again, I think there is also the possibility that the current rule can have the effect of driving users away from TF, period.

I'm not suggesting changes in policy, I am just making an observation based on my personal experience. Feel free to disregard any/all of these remarks.


Yeah, I've decided to more of less fade away from this forum due to the, what I feel at least, excessive censorship. Granted, I think most of the rules are needed, but a few are so restrictive that this is beginning to feel more like an exclusive club that an open CP forum.

Sure...Andy owns it, and can do whatever he chooses with it, but it keeps alot of people away from what I've heard, and it will certainly will keep me away.
 
  • #22
As a chatroom violator and as probably the most experienced forumer and chatroomer here, I say that a chatroom mod is NOT A GOOD IDEA for a small community like us.

:hail::hail::hail:

Anyway as for the vendor thing, yeah it's kinda annoying not being able to chat about other vendors, but you have to look at other things than competition for reason on why it shouldn't be allowed.
1.) Negative feedback is sometimes not justified, and overall just floods the forums with things for the most part people don't want to read.
2.) This site is supported by Flytrapshop. Of course you don't want people advertising for other sites that might drive away buyers.
3.) This site is much more information based than sites that do allow selling/other vendors being mentioned. I personally like having it that way.

At the end of the day, it is just a minor inconvenience. And besides nobody is stopping you from private messaging vendors if somebody needs help looking for a plant not on this site.
 
  • #23
At the end of the day, it is just a minor inconvenience. And besides nobody is stopping you from private messaging vendors if somebody needs help looking for a plant not on this site.

ed zachary.....
 
  • #24
[*]Discussion of outside vendors (including vague references like "you know the one in [REDACTED] location) or abbreviations; and,
[*]Links to websites promoting or engaging in the previously mentioned topics.

Wouldn't this mean that linking to basically ANY website regarding CPs is against the rules seeing that most have a list of vendors? i.e. Barry Rice's website having a list of vendor's links?
 
  • #25
Wouldn't this mean that linking to basically ANY website regarding CPs is against the rules seeing that most have a list of vendors? i.e. Barry Rice's website having a list of vendor's links?
Not true. It would probably need to be direct or intentional. Anything else would be someone searching on their behalf.
 
  • #26
That's the thing "probably" These rules simply aren't detailed enough to allow for exceptions. You either break the rules, or you don't. It's all right there. The rules say: "Links to websites promoting or engaging in the previously mentioned topics." This includes the discussion of outside vendors. Cut and dry.
 
  • #28
Okay, I love this forum. TF stands out as one of the best forums on the web, full of wonderful, skilled growers who are incredibly generous. But, it sometimes seems like the rules are a bit strict. Especially the one about not posting about vendors. I believe that this is the one rule that is driving the most people away. I hate to see long term members like exo leave because of this rule. Perhaps it should be repealed but that decision lies with the owner.

Otherwise, I appreciate that the conversations are kept clean for younger members so that everyone can be involved in this great hobby!
 
  • #29
Alrighty- I'll try to clarify a few things... Some clarification is that there is no clarification because there are some exceptions.

International vendors- (one of those fuzzy things) Pretty much allowed. Even Wistuba. Why? Well, EP and things don't typically sell directly to the USA, you must get their plants from another vendor. Wistuba does sell directly here, but if you were to pick up something I have from there, you have all the extra fees so it really doesn't compete with my market (as pointed out, is pretty basic right now). The vendors OF EP plants, not allowed. Because they also sell what I have and so are essentially competition. In fact, there are topics in the Foreign Carnivorous Plant Resources section of the forum on where to get CPs in Canada and such, which I use to refer people to when they contact me for sales to those countries.

On wider selection of plants: They come and go as I have them available... Many are listed and gone within 2 days, I don't even need to post here that there are new plants in the store (and so usually do not). Also, I'm working on something... but no details on that.

Healthy competition: Sure, that could be good.. but at the same time, I hate a forum that is slathered in ads, for myself or others... If I allowed conversation of other stores, there would be more mentions for other stores, than my own on this site. This site is crawled by thousands of unregistered users every day for information. Just by having those links on my pages is possibly pointing those people to other sites. Now that topic may be for some super rare nep- but that person researching a Venus flytrap, sees that, goes to that site and finds they have Venus flytraps also and buys from them.

The rule isn't really there for you guys, the experienced members of this forum that likely grow way more than I even have in my personal collection. It is there for those thousands of people that visit for info on a basic plant and are not bombarded with the links of other vendors. I have thought about a private forum that only registered users can see, maybe even after so many posts or something where they could talk about other vendors but there are three problems there that are apparent right away.
1) I cannot have one forum using the word censor to block those names and another to allow them.
2) I feel like it would be even harder for members to maintain a "not on the open forum" mindset for vendor names on the rest of the forum and it would leak into the other forums.
3) If for some reason it didn't work, taking it back would be asking for a ton of trouble. Look at the trouble it causes as a rule in place for 10 years!

As has been said, if you feel need to PM someone where to get that plant, or where you got yours, go for it. We do not monitor Pms I don't care what you do there... What is done and said there doesn't affect that huge margin of people passing through these forums every day. Keep it off open forum, that's it.

As to pages that have lists of vendors.... uhm... that's one of those fuzzy areas again. The barry Rice page is very informational and I wouldn't ban that from being linked. But to another forum that is supported by a store and has ads all over it for such is a no go. To someones personal page for some information.... if it is blatantly obvious that there is sales there, basically a seller's site with some info. no. Use your internal judgement on that... or you can ask me or a mod. But just a site, that SOMEWHERE has a list of vendors on it is not a problem unless you are linking to that page or something. :p


I love how people act like the no vendor rule is new. That rule was in effect on this forum before I even purchased it and took it over when it was ran by another store... and I did that back in.... (checks records) Aug. of 2006 (that's when I actually took possession of the forums as my own). So, quite honestly if someone wants to act like it's this new imposed rule out of the blue and not participate in this forum- more power to them. Hopefully they can find a forum that fits what they're looking for, that's the great thing about the internet!

Actually for that matter, the rules really haven't changed other than some clarification from the rules that were in place from "way back when" but this is not the first time "censorship" has been called on terraforums, it went through that at least once under the old ownership as well. And I'm confident it will happen again at some point. Here is a good topic about it from 2007 if you have nothing better to do: http://www.terraforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108474

As to chat moderator: Everyone is a chat moderator! (and forum moderator :) ) if you see something that doesn't belong in the chat, copy and paste it to me and it will be reviewed. See something on the forum that doesn't belong? Use that cool little "report" button on the lower right side of the reply box and it is sent directly to the moderator forum and our email boxes for review.

Uhm, I think I covered it.
Andrew
 
  • #30
Let me start by saying that I completely agree with you for the no naming vendors rule. I didn't understand why it was enforced until you explained about the non-members that view the site.

I have a suggestion, not sure if it's been brought up, but it seems like a legit idea... What if the vendor name was blocked for non-members, but the members could see it? That way, it would direct the non-members for Flytrapshop and it would give the registered members good advice as to where local places are that sell CPs. I have checked out Flytrapshop and it looks great as far as quality and prices, but I'm only looking to buy Nepenthes, and to narrow it down even more, I am usually looking for a specific species or hybrid. So maybe if the rule is only to direct the non-members to Flytrapshop, you could just block the vendor names from them?

Just a suggestion, not sure if it would even be possible.
 
  • #31
Good clarification Andrew!
Terraforums is the most active CP forum that I am aware of and I think exceedingly well run and moderated. As you know, I am Admin on the ICPS Forum and our rules are much more restrictive -- you must be registered as a member and approved by an Admin to post and we allow no sales or trades -- simply because we wanted it to be a different experience. The result is we have only just over 2000 members and a little over 32,000 posts. In contrast, Terraforums has more than twice the members and over half a million posts!

People that quit a forum because they don't like the rules are just hurting themselves. Personally, I find Terraforum rules to be quite reasonable.
 
  • #32
I agree with the rule but for totally different reasons

I was a co-owner of a forum many moons ago.... wasn’t Cp's but doesn’t matter.
When you allow vendor names/recommendations/reviews you invite turf wars., its a fact of life.

People by nature will become loyal to vendor "A".... Eventually someone will make a post about getting burned by vendor "A".
The next thing that happens is those who are loyal to vendor "A" feel it is their public duty to get involved.

People then become "passionate" and things soon spiral downhill from there.... with the poor person who got burnt having their honor and integrity questioned and chastised.

I’ve been around the block a few times and I’ve seen this happen more times than i can count.
Early on in my membership at TF Andrew and I chatted about this a couple times....
I felt then, as I do now.... the no recommedation/vendor name rule is the lesser of two evils.... by far.

Having a no vendor name/review rule is the best defense against this happening.

Personal vendor recommendations are best left as that.... personal.

Just my 2 cents and Im sticking too it :p
 
  • #33
Good point about all the unregistered visitors Andrew. I had never thought of that. I always thought from the point of view of a member who already grew most of the common things. Not someone looking for info and plants to start out.

Also good point Av, I am on some other forums where there are some fairly heated discussions about the quality of plants from other places, and a lot of members will gang up on those burned by other places saying "this is why you should only buy from (insert name here)!" I find these posts do get rather annoying and the discussions can get a bit heated.

My opinions have been swayed, the no vendors rule should probably remain.
 
  • #34
True that Butch... I hadn't a thought of that.

Adnedarn: yeah, and having it based on post-count could be overcome by thousands of pointless posts too - I'm a member of some other forums where people who know nothing get the title 'wizard' and things like that for no real value-added posts which is deceptive and unhelpful for noobies thinking they're asking someone who knows what they're talking about.
 
  • #35
True that Butch... I hadn't a thought of that.

Adnedarn: yeah, and having it based on post-count could be overcome by thousands of pointless posts too - I'm a member of some other forums where people who know nothing get the title 'wizard' and things like that for no real value-added posts which is deceptive and unhelpful for noobies thinking they're asking someone who knows what they're talking about.
I've seen people attain over 10k in 4 months.
A different guy did 1k in less than 24 hours.

Seriously.
 
  • #36
Well.....

Terraforums Rules for Participation #5 states:
Make your posts of a contributory nature; don’t waste forum space (for example, don’t post 10 smileys and nothing else).

and about the Chat Box specifically
Keep on topic with the forum. While the chatbox is open to a variety of topics, it is preferred that the conversation be carnivorous plant oriented or topics that any member can participate in at anytime. The chatbox is not intended to be an IM substitute. For example, the chatbox should not be used to discuss, strategize, or gloat regarding current online gaming between members, since that is a conversation between two or three members only and discourages others from getting involved. The topics of the chatbox should be of interest to the people that would normally browse TerraForums who could join in a conversation. You can always email, PM or IM about more personal topics like gaming and what you did over the weekend.

If you feel you have to tweet off-topic stuff that's what Twitter is for. Your audience can follow you there and you can high-five or fist bump each other there all you want.
 
  • #37
Bump.

It seems it would do many of the new members (and some of the older members) good to review this thread as well as the forum and chatbox rules.

When Andrew gets out the ban hammer he's like Captain America and doesn't mess around.

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BpufNT8I-SU?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
  • #38
Ok...now for my two cents, which can't even buy bubble gum anymore.

The no-vendor rule is simply that, a rule. You do not change the rules to fit it's members. Alot of members hang out here BECAUSE of the rules. Too laxed of rules and you have a circus, too stringent of rules and you have an "information only" forum. TF is in the middle where EVERYONE can learn and teach in the same thread.

As has been said in a few recent posts, there becomes alot of "side taking" when there is too much chatter about vendors. Anyone that is a member of some of the more popular REPTILE FORUMS can agree. Too much mud slinging going on.

Also, a new member is labled a newbie, DO NOT consider them a beginner just because of that. With that said, non-members make a decision about joining a group based upon what they see on their first visit. An experienced keeper will not stick around if it is like High School Detention in here, nor will a SERIOUS beginner take the site seriously if they do not feel that the members are approachable, and willing to help without being judgemental.

Im sorry if I went a bit off subject, but the rules should not be on the stand, behavior should. PM, AIM, e-mail, etc., that is where you talk about vendors. Make it a conversation, not an advertisement.
 
  • #39
I second what SgtSarracenia said, specifically about the newbie comment.
 
  • #40
I'm bumping this thread. Participants in the chatbox would probably do well to review this discussion.

A word about the language (bad word) filter. Andrew mentioned this before and I'll post the link when I find it. Words that get replaced with asterisks by the bad word filter are deemed in appropriate by Andrew. Do not try to circumvent the bad word filter with creative typing such as padding with spaces or non-alphabetic characters etc. The language filter does simple replacements and sometimes censors parts of an appropriate word or typographical errors. However, if a word is meant to be censored it should remain censored. Period.

See also:
Chatbox rules
and
Chatbox... and rules in general

Take this as a bit of friendly advice before more formal measures are taken.
 
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