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POTM voting

  • Thread starter mass
  • Start date
  • #41
Besides, it appears as if we can't find the "perfect" solution, so why not take the best (and easiest) of the bunch. If some people are gonna get so hung up over themselves and what their friends think, then I agree with drew, they shouldn't be voting and should stop being so immature.
 
  • #42
There are limitations what the vBulletin poll allows:

1) no min or max on number of choices that can be picked on multiple choice polls
2) no way to display members names and how they voted. However there is nothing to stop people from making a "I voted for" comment unless the thread is closed to replies.
3) Doesn't have the option to allow votes to be changed (by the voter) until the poll is closed.
4) No option to display the results only after the poll is closed.
 
  • #43
As I said in a previous post, why don't we just make the voting public, similar to "picking a number" in a giveaway? This would ensure that 1) people couldn't vote more than once 2) people would be reluctant to vote for themselves and 3) voting people down due to poor association would be conspicuous and probably avoided. I think in this particular instance, eliminating voter confidentiality would help more than it would hurt.

Also, we could limit discussion in the POTM thread similar to that of the NASC auction and "members photos" threads, in order to keep some of these specious debates to a minimum.

I really like your idea mato, but like NaN said that could be a real problem when people see who voted for who. Questions would be asked like "why did you vote for the ventrata and not the Eddie?" . . .etc. Even if nothing is said gossip could spread around by certain people about how "so and so likes to vote for his entries" or "so and so likes to vote for so and so's entries because of a deal" . . .etc.

Sure, the TF voting system eliminates the exploiters who mess with the entries, but I'm sure a problem will arise if someone wins by only one vote would cause even more things to rise like "did he vote for himself to win?" or "he encouraged his friend to make one last vote" . . .etc. Also, theres a high chance that a tie between first place and/or second place could happen which would increase the tension as to how the voting was done.

After having looked at all the problems the POTM contest has faced (as well as other contests on other non-related forums) I think the best thing to do to end all the arguments (all that) would be to just not do a contest at all. There's too many problems with having the contest exist in the first place.
 
  • #44
After having looked at all the problems the POTM contest has faced (as well as other contests on other non-related forums) I think the best thing to do to end all the arguments (all that) would be to just not do a contest at all. There's too many problems with having the contest exist in the first place.
I differ.

The so-called 'problems' with the contest are minor compared to the overall enjoyment experienced by the vast majority of people who view, vote or in some way contribute to the POTM threads each month. Removing the contest is capitulating to the fears of the minority --- and imo, that's not an option. Stopping something this popular because someone's feelings might get hurt in some way borders on silliness.

Whether it's the competitive basis of this thread (POTM) or just the comparative showcase of this & many of the other threads highlighting great plants, great pics & innovative/unique compositions - the overall improvement of the photos (& the shared assessments) have helped improve the quality and even some of the educational value of Terraforums. The inherent nature of these comparisons (whether deliberately competitive or not) has helped to push many TF contributors to new levels of excellence not seen before (imho). Limiting the potential catalysts of this ongoing improvement would be a strong move in the wrong direction .....

:nono:
 
  • #45
I really dig that concept Mat, but after reading on to why people think it's a bad idea, I had to agree.
Personally, I don't care who my friends vote for. All of my friends are opinionated, so I'd never ask them to not make up their own damn minds.

I just want the outcome to be something.. fair.
If that means less voting perks, then so be it.
Still can't get over how my veitchii x lowii took dead last (months ago), and an unopened pitcher took 6th. Obviously this process is flawed..
 
  • #46
Umm, did you ever consider the date when all this happened? What day did the voting open?

All that was needed to do was to restart the poll and see if anything "fishy" went on again.

As far as the July vote goes as soon as people started complaining about fairness or someone gloating about manipulating the vote I started to look at the trends. I'm seeing the same trends between the two polls: 1st and 2nd place are pretty solid, 3rd through 6th bounce around. The "official" poll closed with 22 total voters, the revote (last time I checked) was at 32 total voters. Up until 13 revotes the ranking between the two polls was almost exactly the same, then 1st, second and third started shift. When the revotes reached around 25 total the results again became closer to what the "official" poll shows. The differences are almost certainly caused by the different scoring systems.

Quite honestly I don't see anything that looks like manipulation in the latest poll.

As Andrew posted in the current POTM thread: All his has been discussed at length and voted on before. If you don't like what the consensus was before, just don't enter the contest.

For the record I've always advocated using the vBulletin polling system. It means an administrator (Andrew) or one of the mods having to set it up but it is easier and convenient for the user. The scoring system is more transparent and simple to understand. And there is only one vote per member. A few people have said they just don't vote because they can't be bothered to go outside TF to do it. I think the difference in the total votes so far 22 vs 32 bears this out.
 
  • #47
There are limitations what the vBulletin poll allows:

1) no min or max on number of choices that can be picked on multiple choice polls
2) no way to display members names and how they voted. However there is nothing to stop people from making a "I voted for" comment unless the thread is closed to replies.
3) Doesn't have the option to allow votes to be changed (by the voter) until the poll is closed.
4) No option to display the results only after the poll is closed.


I can pick a Max but not a min (as the new one I put up you can pick up to 3)
I can make the voters public... I just haven't before. (or maybe it's I can view them... I could post them at the end if that's wanted :p )
and the last two I cannot do to the best of my knowledge.
 
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  • #48
I think 3 is actually ideal. I always frown during months where there are 15 or more entries. It's hard to vote for them all. I think the top 3 would be great!
 
  • #49
Cool! I still don't see any need to show who voted and for what. There isn't really a need for a minimum vote. If someone thinks that only one or two entries are worth voting on, so be it.

And if someone wants to vote for their own entry so what? They wouldn't have entered it if they thought it wasn't POTM worthy. And after seeing the other entries may still feel that way. How does the saying go? "Never call somebody's baby ugly."
 
  • #50
Ideally, I'd like to see 3 choices - first, second, third and I'd like to see these choices rated and averaged. For example:

30 people voted

One entry received:

18 first place votes
8 second place votes
4 third place votes

If each First place vote has a weight of 3 and each second place vote has a weight of 2 and third place votes have a weight of 1, then the math to determine the score would be: 3 (18) + 2 (8) + 1 (4) / 30 = 2.46666 out of a possible perfect score of 3.

I think this would simplify the rating process and only the top 3 vote getters would place - everyone else would be spared the shame of coming in last, or low on the totem pole.
 
  • #51
Why not really simplify. One vote per memebr. 1'st place, 2nd place, etc determined by number of votes gotten?
 
  • #52
Why not really simplify. One vote per memebr. 1'st place, 2nd place, etc determined by number of votes gotten?

Let's say an entry is overwhelmingly beautiful and it gets all the votes. An unlikely situation, yes... but now you have no second or third place.
 
  • #53
Brokken: The vBulletin poll can't do that. There might be a 3rd party add-on that does but Andrew shies away from 3rd party stuff for good reason - support and upgrade nightmares. The Cornell system more or less does what you propose. If you rank only the top 3 all the rest are by default ranked at the bottom. There are at least 4 proportional algorithms (radio button on results page) that can be applied and the non-proportional results are always given.

Chibae: exactly what using the vBulletin (built-in) poll does.
 
  • #54
Let's say an entry is overwhelmingly beautiful and it gets all the votes. An unlikely situation, yes... but now you have no second or third place.

Then the membership will truely have spoken
 
  • #55
Umm, did you ever consider the date when all this happened?

Umm, yeah.. It was when I quit caring about running this contest.
Why should I run a contest for people that cheat just to screw me in the voting process?
And just for you, I'll quote myself from post #29.

"Haven't seen the results of July's contest, but unless I'm dead last again I think "Anonymous" was referring more to that contest a couple of months ago. We all know the one..
I think last month and the month before turned out pretty fair considering the competition.
The whole point was:
1. Why not just use a TF poll so we don't even have to worry about swayed votes?.."
 
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  • #56
I've hardly had time to be on Terraforums lately but why am I not surprised that we're having this discussion. :-))

My incompletely informed and mostly irrelevant two cents:

I have often wondered how legitimate the old offwebsite poll could be. It seems like it would be easy enough to vote multiple times. Also, I totally was right there with you folks when that one contest got really fishy. Pretty lame actions on someone's part... Personal vendettas and all aside, it really is JUST the TF POTM.

I would be unopposed whether the poll gets conducted here on Terraforums we keep using the same poll we have been using. But there are a couple of things I think:

1.) I like how it is now that we can have specific places for all the contestants, not just 1st-3rd. I know sometimes some of us (mass) have gotten voted to the bottom for no reason and that feels lame, but on the other hand, there are times when I've gotten sixth or even tenth place and felt happy about where my plant placed considering the fantastic competition that others had posted.

2.) I think voting publicly is just asking for trouble. As much as we all say it's just a contest with no prize, people's feelings would get hurt and that matters when you have to do trades with them or ask them for advice or so on and so forth.

And to answer Whimgrinder's question a few pages back as to why we even feel compelled to enter into a contest in the first place:

It is (should be) light-hearted, good-natured fun. What sets it apart from just a monthly "display" of pitchers is that for one, we already have that. A lot of us have our own threads and as Mass said he's got the photo of the day deal. Not to mention the POTM really serves as that already. Why I enter and hope to win is because I want to have my pitcher in the "hall of fame" obviously. Why? Because the hall of fame is more than just the monthly gallery of whoever is proud of whatever plant. The hall of fame is a thread that any newbie or anyone on the web could find and browse and they would see the three truly exemplary plants of every month. THAT is cool.

I believe we all think Nepenthes are pretty awesome, even a humble, small homely one. And there are hundreds of threads that contain pictures of plants like those. But there is really only one thread where you are guaranteed truly above and beyond amazing specimens of the genus and that is the Hall of Fame.

There's also Pygo's my nepenthes 2012 and Jeremiah's Greenhouse.

But you know what I mean. :p
 
  • #57
Well said Dex..

Ever since I first joined the hobby, I always envied people's entries in the POTM. Wishing one day I'd be able to grow plants to a "worthy" entry point.
And now having someone's jealousy poo-poo that for me every month, it's just lost it's glimmer and fun. Which I hate..

I've decided to refrain from participating here, you guys can go about this however you chose.
I feel like this whole mess is inadvertently my fault. And rather than continuously adding to this ordeal, I'll just back out, and problem solved.
Done and done..
 
  • #58
I've decided to refrain from participating here, you guys can go about this however you chose.
I feel like this whole mess is inadvertently my fault. And rather than continuously adding to this ordeal, I'll just back out, and problem solved.
Done and done..
While this is obviously your choice, you shouldn't delude yourself into believing the problem is solved. When I shared my observations back when, Mr./Ms Anon wasn't just slamming you to the bottom of the pack (probably their #1 objective), they also raised my entry up above others more worthy (at least imo - like a RHH iirc - which was just crazy). Once they discovered they could manipulate the outcome, they chose to do so in more than one way.

My point here is that once the genie is out of the bottle, it's not easy to put back in. Mr./Ms Anon may or may not continue their POTM 'modifications' once you leave -- but now others who followed all of these threads may try their hand at some subtle (or not so subtle) vote re-engineering.

While you may inadvertently have been a catalyst in the beginning, now that people know they can influence the outcome - we need a more robust approach that doesn't make it easy for these fools (imho).
 
  • #59
Ron is correct: the vote corruption genie is out of the bottle, and that is that. It is irrelevant why it got started, or for what reason, the fact is that it cannot be undone now, at least not without re-engineering the voting tools.

I think it is most unfortunate that a contest that has such a worthy goal at its heart (to encourage people to excel with their growing skills and photography) is so easily ruined by the pettiness of someone who is ultimately motivated to cause damage and inflict pain on targeted individuals. I can't imagine a less appealing scenario to choose to be involved in.

In my experience, once a process becomes as broken as this one is, it is nearly irreparable. Good luck to those why try to fix it.
 
  • #60
Just wanted to say "Thank You"
I haven't gotten back to participating yet, but I definitely feel more comfortable with the new changes.
Hope everyone feels the same way. I also hope these 12 way ties don't discourage people from using the new voting system.
More winners = More fun (IMO)
 
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