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Definitive Interpretation of CITES?

I know it has been discussed before, but I was having problems finding a definitive answer. My question is regarding plants that are protected under CITES (I), such as S. jonesii, S. oreophila, etc ...I know selling without all of the proper paperwork is illegal, but asking for shipping seems to be a grey area. In previous threads, I have seen many people say that it depends on who you talk to, and the mods seem to generally side with no payment for shipping. In the rules for lasts year's NASC auction, it says make sure you adhere to CITES restrictions, but doesn't really go into what those are. Can someone point out where in all of the paperwork it talks about payment for shipping, or if it isn't definitively stated, point out sections that allude to it. I don't mean to challenge anyone's understanding or interpretation of the law, I am just curious as to what it actually says, and am having problems finding this information on my own. My primary reason for asking is I have a extra plants that I may put up for the NASC auction, but I don't know how much I can shell out to pay for shipping, and I feel like this is a good time to have this discussion. Thanks, and sorry if I missed something or if this needs to be somewhere else!
 
It's easier to understand if you consider that the illegality in the situation under discussion occurs when said plants enter interstate commerce. I can legally sell divisions of my S. jonesii to my next door neighbor all day long. I can legally send them free of charge to any resident of the US all night long. But the second that the plants cross a state line in a financial exchange of any kind, the law is broken. In any case your point is moot, because by offering one of these plants for the auction, you are putting it into commerce, and if the bidders are from out of your state, you have put the plants into interstate commerce.
 
So then by that explanation, would shipping within the state be legal, or no? I understand why the laws are in place, but it sometimes seems like they make (what would otherwise be legal) trades/giveaways impossible, and I feel like these trades/giveaways would in theory help conservation efforts...Do you have any outside resources that you suggest I look at to get a better understanding of it all? Also does the definition of commerce exclude plants in giveaways with paid shipping (not in the auction), or is it just anytime a plant is put in a box and shipped off?

I am by no means a lawyer, but I have looked through the text of CITES, which is why I am looking for help with interpretation. In Article VII it states that "4. Specimens...of a plant species included in Appendix I artificially propagated for commercial purposes, shall be deemed to be specimens of species included in Appendix II." Part 5 of this article also says something similar. So according to this, plants such as S. jonesii (Appendix I) that are propagated and grown in captivity should be treated the same as plants such as S. purpurea (Appendix II)? I know I am missing a lot, but if someone could point out what exactly (quotes are helpful) I am missing, that would help. Is there something other than CITES that I am not taking into account?
 
USDA and USFWS are the final authorities. I'd urge you to reach out to them (in writing) and secure answers. Honestly, if you have to think at great length about it, the answer will probably be "no."
 
I will look into this. I am not trying to be difficult, and I am by no means trying to go against the law, but its hard for me to just accept something without seeing the why. I bring all of this up because I feel like most of it is unspoken knowledge, and many members (myself especially) don't fully understand or aren't really aware of all of the efforts put in place to protect endangered species. I am not saying it isn't illegal, but part of me wants to know under whose authority and where it is stated, so I appreciate the response. Conservation is important to me (and I am sure many other members) and for me, knowing what regulations are in place is helpful.
 
Shipping in state does not qualify as interstate commerce.
 
In any case, offering appendix I species for the NASC auction is highly problematic. You could argue that you're giving the plant to NASC, which is perfectly legal, but unless NASC has the necessary permits, they're on the hook if you ship to another state.
 
I see. I figured this was a good time to have the discussion, before the auction. I had wondered about all of it for a while, but the mention of the upcoming auction is what prompted me to post. Thanks, and I will continue to do my own research for my own benefit!
 
If you have a CITES species, then the absolute best thing you can do for conservation purposes is create pure-species seed and donate it to the ICPS seedbank. That way:
(1) more than 1 individual can obtain it
(2) more plants can be produced than from simple division
(3) the ICPS holds all appropriate permits for distributing these plants; no legality issues of any kind
 
  • #10
Not sure if I can add anything that hasn't already been spoken, but, this is how I've always taken it:
1. Selling of these plants within state is perfectly legal.
2. Selling these plants out of state without permits is illegal
3. Giving these plants away and asking for payment of shipping or postage (including seeds, unsure concerning standard SASE with this) out of state is illegal
4. Giving away of these plants, and paying for shipping/postage yourself, is legal.

And yes, donating pure seeds to places like the ICPS and other conservation places is a very good idea.
 
  • #11
Given the title of your thread, you should probably read Barry's post about Cites & jurisdiction - since it's not really Cites that you should be concerned about within the USA.

I seemed to recall Barry discussing the issue of postage, but I'm unable to locate the specific thread. What I recall (or think I recall) is that he's discussed the issue with appropriate authorities and the specific wording makes it a gray area. He suggested taking the more conservative approach as earlier respondents in this thread suggest.

Even if you were able to get someone to tell you it's ok to charge postage, there's nothing saying that a year later, someone else has a different interpretation and then uses you as an example.

If you think that the governing authorities are always completely rational & sympathetic, you may not be familiar with the experiences of a forum member a few years ago. Check out the post by Killerplants in this thread (although not completely relevant since it involves importation). I've seen a lot of people post justification saying something like "I did 'X' & nobody said anything so it must be ok." It really doesn't matter how many people got away with something if they decide to use you as an example.
 
  • #13
I knew this was laid out somewhere here, but for some reason I didn't see it in the search results, which is why I asked again; thanks for linking to it! You have a good point about the year to year interpretation. I am glad that I started this thread, because it has made me realize I really knew almost nothing about all of the laws and regulations regarding CP's.
 
  • #14
One of the big takeaways from Barry's thread is that you should check out the ESA list, in order to know which plants can or can't be sold within the US. There are some species covered under CITES that don't even show up, which means interstate (not international) commerce is fine.
 
  • #15
Alright, since I'm a Board Member of NASC and will be one of the mods for this event, please let me just make an administrative decision here -

Do not, I repeat do not offer any of the following plants in the auction: S. alabamensis, S. oreophila, or S. rubra ssp. jonesii. All are listed as federally endangered and the kinds of checks necessary to make sure that they are not put through interstate commerce are too cumbersome for us to oversee. (And, frankly, it not possible for us to do so, anyhow).

The issue is this - Yes, if you were to look at this guide by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, you might conclude that you can sell/trade a plant within state lines. (See more discussion here) But, and this is a big but, even if you were to restrict bids to a single state (and it was legal under state law to sell these species in that state), unless you are personally delivering the plant (and you won't leave the state), it would be very hard to guarantee that the plant will remain entirely in intrastate commerce. It is entirely possible that a package going from Town A to Town B will leave the state on its journey. There are two likely possibilities for this: (1) the mailing service messes up and ships the package to a distribution center way out of the way, realizes the mistake, and returns it to your state (something not unknown to anyone who has ever tracked a couple packages), or (2) the distribution center for either Town A or Town B is in the next state (something common in small states/border towns). If the package leaves the state, it could be reasonably construed as being a channel of interstate commerce, thus violating the Endangered Species Act.

Because of all that, I'm asking you not to list those three species if you live in or are shipping to the United States.
 
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