Fungi

[Darcie]

Something has been bothering me about peoples reactions to Fungi on or nere their plants. It seems like everyone assumes that it is bad and want to kill it. VFT people are the worst, they have an obsession with fungiside. Now I'm no expert, but I am a bio-student.

How many people here know about the symbiotic relationship between plants and fungi? I'm guessing very few. Nearly every plant studied in this field has been found to have some sort of fungi that it relies on. Trees have an average of 100 differn't symbiotic fungi's living with them, if it where not for these abondent fungi, the tree would die of dehydration befor it became anything more then a seedling.

In plants that produce super tiney seeds, the seeds may not even be capible of germinateing without a fungle parner. Has anyone here EVER studied this relation ship in CPs? I don't even have to pull out a microscope and culture dish to tell you they are their. CPs have tiney seeds, it doesn't take a month for the seed to germinate, it takes a month for water to seep in and start it's growth. The humidy isn't for the seed, it's for the fungi that grows with it. Is this a theory? Yes, but seeding as so many plants relie on this system, it's probubly true.

(this is also why sterile seeds don't sprout very well in many plants)

Mainly what I'm getting at here is that Fungi abuse is a problem. When someone sprays a Fungiside on a plant, the good fungi dies, the plant weekens and then room for a harmfull fungi is made. I have to ask, why does everyone assume the light fuzz on their plant belongs to one of the very few (% wise) parasitical fungi?

So I'd like to ask that people try giving the fungiside and ahhh it's mold talk a rest. Perhaps one of our botinest on this forum could do further reserch in this area.

-Darcue

P.S. I've had my Flytrap for 3 years. It had Fungi with it when I got it and it's has fungi with it now. I've never had a problem, my plant is healthy and the only time my plant looked off was when the fungi levels droped down.

 

[BuMbOiMk]

I don't think its that people detest fungi, but more that they love their plants more...
Many of these plants definitely live through symbiotic relationships, Sarracenia purpurea with bacteria, for example (and probably many others since they help aid in breaking down the matter).
At least with me, I'm growing the plants so my CP's can do well, and i dont want a fungus to spread rampantly through my collection for various reasons...but yeah
Also, with mature plants a little fungus MaY not hurt much, but with seedlings and younger unestablished plants it is very risky...
And with vft's, i think its mainly the 'dormancy' issue with fungicides, (depending on the procedure and how you put the traps through dormancy) because they are so vulnerable and prone to fungi...
but yes Darcie's right there are some good fungi
its just that many of the common ones can hurt your plant

 

[BigCarnivourKid]

In all the websites I've visited, there is no mention of a symbiotic fungus growing with VFTs.  When fungus is mentioned at all it is with the recommendation that it be removed before it becomes unsightly or adversely affects the health of the plant.  Most symbiotic fungus improves a plants ability to absorb water and nitrogen through the roots by growing fine mycorhizal roots that work to increase the plant root surface area.  VFTs absorb nitrogen through the bugs they digest with acids and enzymes they produce in the traps. And since the VFT lives in very wet conditions, it doesn't need help getting moisture.

 

[Joseph Clemens]

(Cough, cough) Uh, as research goes on (so I've read) it is becoming more and more evident that perhaps nearly all life is inter-dependent. Well, duh.

Inter-life dependencies, cooperations, symbioses, could perhaps be the norm, rather than the exception. To my understanding it is the balance that is important. Symbiosis and balance go together. If I run harder or work longer, I am going to need to drink a little more water to keep from dehydrating.

If I increase any of the environmental variables I provide for my plants I know that I am going to need to balance the others. If, for instance I provide some fertilizer, artificial or natural, then I should include a balancing dose of the other factors, such as water, light, temperature, etc. The environment under the surface of the media can be just as important as what goes on above. For instance, if there is too much of certain mineral nutrients; too little oxygen, perhaps brought about by too high a saturation of water, then anaerobic organisms may grow, produce toxic waste products, injure roots and permit entry of advantageous (hungry) organisms. These organisms may like the insides more than the outside. Analogy: pizza vs crackers.

Even male and female humans must "cooperate" or there will be no more of us to discuss these things.

 

[RamPuppy]

hmmm...

Darcie... Have you ever lost plants you have been caring for for years because a fungus laid waist to it? (How about a 75 dollar nepenthes?) Many of us have... I have been fighting a particularly nasty fungus that forms a mat over my plants and drills through their leaves litterally destroying a plant in a very short time if not caught quickly, I nearly lost my first, and most favorite nepenthes.

Now, as for small seed needing a symbiotic fungs to assist it... well, MAYBE... but, a common practice in our field of hobby when growing seedlings, is to nuke your peat moss in the microwave for a while to sterilize it (heck, almost ALL of our plants are Tissue Cultured in Sterile media) I just don't buy this... it may be true of some species, but not all...

We are not dealing with plants in their natural environments here. We are dealing with artificially created worlds that can not, and will not be the ideal setting for a plant unless a tremendous amount of time and resources are expended... it just won't happen... by this very fact, we have put our plants in a situation where another oportunistic organism might take advantage of them.

And Finally, we are growing plants here, not fungus, I do not appreciate a fungul mat making it's way across my terrarium for any reason other than it tells me my conditions are currently not optimum. It is not attractice, and my tank is supposed to look nice. Oh... and I would seriously NOT advise putting your plants in dormancy in a refrigerator without a nice bath of cleary's 3666, cause you probably won't pull it out in the spring. It's all a matter of making choices on what is best for your plants, yes, there may be some symbiotic fungus that helps these plants, but is it worth the risk in letting those few species of fungus that are unfortunately very abundant for many of us destroy our plants? The answer is no... and the evidence of years and years of people using fungicde and growing healthy plants supports the popular view.

 

[Guest]

Why is it when you are sick, you take medication?

And why is some medication just as harmful as the disease?

Most meds will kill your 'good germs' as well as the 'bad germs'

Same thing for Venus Flytraps.

What you are relying on is that everyone lives in North and South Carolina where there may only a 'good' mold...

But many people are caring for these plants all over the world!!

That means different strains of mold, fungus and other goodies that could potentially be harmful for the plant.

No one is saying that the mold is the problem.

Since we are not in the 'true environment' in which these plants grow, precautions are taken to ensure the stability and well being of these plants.

Why would you want to risk something? Even more so when very little is known about this.

The advice that is offered about fungicides and pesticides are just that...advice

No one really pushes the use of these things on anyone.

I think that most people's assessment of their "light fuzz on their plant" is not that, it is green slime, or a grayish color mold.


You also have to understand that for many people, VFT's are the first plant to own...the one that starts it all. And quite frankly, they are a little harder than some other CP's.

Kudos to you for having kept your plants alive without the use of any chemicals.

But what about the others that have problems? Are you suggesting that they just 'ride it out'?

That absolutely makes no sense.

If you knew that you could do something that has a greater risk of keeping it alive than killing it, what would you do?

And how are you so sure that this 'fungi' you refer to isn't something harmful? Maybe not what is growing in your pot, but someone else may not have the same setup, same growing conditions and same soil.

As I always appreciate an open discussion about things, I wish and hope that they would be about something beneficial and not something that is pure speculation and one sided. The one sided part stems from the fact that you have no problems with your plants.

Unless you are in the room with someone else, or they take a picture of what 'mold' is growing, you have no idea if it is helpful or harmful.

 

[Darcie]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say not to treat your plants, I ment not to OVERTREAT them. If you have an ovious problem, then you have to deal with it. The part that I feel may be counterproductive is treating a plant that is eather perfictly healthy and in dormancey, or treating a healthyplant that has a dead leaf with light mold (the dust type not the matt type) because someone thinks it's the end of the world. All this does is A) breed resistent strains, and B) opens the area for a harmfull spiecies. Perhaps I should add something else, keeping an eye on a healthy dorment plant is the best thing anyone can do because if a problem does arise, it can be solved befor it spreds (the cold temp drasticly lowers fungle growth). As for sorces, I have attually read on the VFT molds (remember that fungi are extreamly good at spreding world wide and most are generalist helpers and will help any plant they fined) at several webpages about 3 years ago.

I'm sorry if not everyone agreas, and yes, I have seen bad mold kill plants, but treating a known problem and treating nothing just in case are differnt. I happen to loath pestiside use (mostly because I know to much about the reality of it and I'm not going to go into it because it's to scientific and off base) and I feel Antibiotics are heavly overused as well so the examples used againced my argument are just other examples of human kinds short sitedness.

I never ment to upset anyone, and I've noticed a huge backlash at me in the other forums for sagesting a closer look at how our plants work with their surroundings. I do realise these are house plants, but I'm sure if you talk to Orchid growers you'll here of the great revelations studying these relationships gave their practice and you'll find they praise the day it was discoverd. No, I don't own Orchids and yes they are differnt plants, but my point is, isn't it worth looking into this with our plants? If you think lack of information means it's bad news, think again. We are just begining to study plant-fungi relationships and thats why we know so little.

-Darcie

P.S. Don't fear the unknown

explore into it and learn

 

[RamPuppy]

Darcie,

Your right that it is definately a field of study worth looking into. And I think most of us would agree with you that over reacting and treating in cases where it isn't waranted is probably not a good thing, except in dormancy, when a plant gets put in a fridge, sometimes it's hard to keep an eye on it and remember and what not, and if you leave it in the soil, well, you can't see what's going on period... and cold damp, stagnant soil toughing a root is just asking for an opportunist. So, On that portion, dormancy, I will respectully disagree with you.

As for the backlash, I think perhaps myself, and others interpreted your post as a little disrespectful in it's tone and statement, in that you are bucking what we all know to be primarily beneficial to our plants, you stated that our practices had 'been bothering you' (and as one of the people who has recently posted on fungi, I took this perhaps, a little to close to the heart.)

So please accept my apologies, and let me know if anyone is being outright rude to you and I'll slapem upside the head right after I tell my wife to do the same to me.

 

[Guest]

My analogy with medicine and fungicides was to prove a point.

I agree we as a culture are breeding out strains of bugs that will eventually kill us again like they did 500 years ago.

My point is, you have no idea what someone calls 'mold' or 'fungus'.

You only know that YOU think it is being overused.

Until you can really see what the problem is, then a general antidote is a broad spectrum fungicide that will help the plant.

I hate to use any kind of chemical to rid things, but sometimes there isn't a better alternative...so what do you do?

Is it not that people do or do not agree with you and what you are saying...what is the problem is that you are offering advice with little knowledge of the true problem...and the answer has constantly been 'God, do you have use a fungicide? That is a pet peeve of mine'

What you are proposing is a symbiotic relationship with plants and fungus that has yet to be fully studied. ( in CP's )

So it is theory. I am sure that there is something that goes on with CP's and fungus ( it has to, look at their environment ), but no one has put forth the effort to see what strains are beneficial for the plant and what are harmful.

I feel that you have totally missed the points that were being made about treatment of things for plants.

As I am sure that we all understand your side ( because I truly do ) I am not sure you are looking at the same picture we are.

Also, try and remember that not everyone is an aspiring Bio-student, and they are just getting into the collecting plants. For many people, this is their first plant, or they have tried in the past and have killed them. Granted there are many ways to kill a plant, we have to be able to help out in what ever form or fashion we feel is right.

Being also that this is a beginner site, most people don't know, or just discovered that there are more types of CP's other than VFT's.

Things have to be done in small steps. It helps our short sided minds to think better and to try and see the big picture.

In time, we get to the bulb=rhizome, pesticides should only be applied when...You can use predatory nematodes to rid your soil of fungus gnats WITHOUT a pesticide...

There are many things to learn...and we are working very hard on them. That is why a place like this is important. It will yield the next crop of people that will be carrying the CP torch after we die.

Thanks for the insult, and thanks for being an active and participating member of this forum.

 

[BigCarnivourKid]

Jeese, you guys are going to be hard to follow, but I'll try.

Darcie, it was not my intent to be disrespectful to you or rude, if that is how I came across in my posts I apologize, but as RamPuppy stated, you were going against what I know to be beneficial to my plants.  I think that many will agree with you that fungicide can be overused, but when it comes to dormancy, I think of it as an inoculation against bad fungus.  Just like a flu shot.  You don't wait 'till you have the flu to get one.  You get one before you get the flu.  That is the only time I use a fungicide when I don't see a fungus problem.

RamPuppy and Jaie have covered everything and said it better than I could so I won't repeat it except for Jaie's last words: thanks for being an active and participating member of this forum.

 

[Darcie]

I did not want to insult anyone. I'm sorry. I wanted to discuss fungi observations not get into an argument. I'm sorry

 

[carnivorous23]

Still, she has a point. I've been growing cps for two years, and have not once used a fungicide or lost a plant to fungus. Of course, I don't have lids on any of my terrariums, for air circulation. In my opinion, the stuff is extremely overused. I suppose for low air circulation terrariums, or dormancy in a fridge, it is neccessary though. The reason everyone uses so much fungicide is obvious though - the few fungus that are dangerous can create problems very quickly, and some are devastating.

 

[Guest]

Everyone...

I am not disagreeing with the fact that there is beneficial mold, fungus for plants.

I am not disagreeing that there is an overuse of fungicides and medications...

My point is:

1) Without truly knowing the type of mold, fungus someone has on their plants, there is no true way of saying, Yes you need something, no you don't.

What I purpose is that when someone mentions a ' I have a mold or fungus question', we respond with 'what type of mold, describe it..color, texture anything that can help establish if it is harmful or helpful.

Like I have mentioned to others before, I have green fuzzy moss growing in a lot of my personal collection..I know that it is not harmful to my plants ( unless it is seedlings or something trying to establish itself )...I even have a grayish color mold that is on the soil of some of my Sarracenia...I know this also doesn't harm my plants...

But what I think are issues with other people's situations are:

1) the mold is like a green slime
2) rotting from poor light, or bad water
3) keeping plants in an air tight container ( which most people; including myself, feel is a no no )

We all know that warm, stagnant air will breed mold...we also know that it not enough light will do it as well...and even still, we know that using the wrong water will also cause a problem.

What is most bothersome to me, is that instead of a 'describe your problem, what are your conditions', it has recently become, 'I don't have that problem', 'I never use that stuff', 'Why is everyone on a fungicide trip' ( not quoting, paraphrasing ).

What we need to do; those of us that either consider ourselves 'expert, expierenced, whatever the adjective', is try and understand that for many, this is their first plant...this is a beginner site, not many people truly understand the workings on nature, and WE need to be teachers... Not lecture ( I am not saying anyone has ), but teach...explain why something isn't right, provide alternative methods for handling a problem...ask for a more detailed assesment of the situation before snapping up a cause.

This will not only help YOU ( that means all of us ), that will also help the person with the problem that we desperately want to fix!

Also, understand that I HATE to use any kind of chemical on anything!! This is more so the case with plants....I will try and find any other method I can to fix a problem...I will scrape something off the top, I will get beneficial bugs, I will use alcohol and a q-tip, something, ANYTHING that will not harm my plant, and the environment. I also understand that using something NOT for its intended use will breed resistant strains of molds, fungus, bacteria...

So I DO understand the points that have been made in favor for NOT using a pesticide or fungicide...

But what I ask is that you look at the other side of the coin...think about what it would be like if you just got your first plant ( doesn't even have to be carnivorous ), and you have something that isn't suppose to be there in it or on it!?!?!?! What would you do, say, feel.

Now, ask yourself, I am the one with the answer..I know what to do... How do you say it?

See the point?

We are all here to learn, have fun and make some new friends... Discussions are fun, it makes people think, it helps us all to learn...but in order to 'give something ( as in a thought ),' You have to be able to accept with an open mind the responses...

I am truly sorry for being a punk

You have to understand my bottom line...I am here to help. This forum is here to help. I cannot tell you how much time I spend on helping others...The time I take to go and give lectures. The time to sit with someone on the phone for 30 minutes to ease their mind or just give them some ideas, the AIM conversations that I have, or the emails that I respond to daily

It is in my nature to want to do good, and this place has allowed me to do so!

When I see things that mind you DO make sense, but are provided in a way that may be misleading to someone, or may confuse someone that is already confused...I HAVE to step up and try and sort it all out.

Everyone is here to learn...and I am still learning too!!

We cannot allow ourselves to become stagnant, we will never grow.

Not to sound corny or mushy, but I TRULY LOVE YOU ALL!!! I have made so many friends and shared so many things..it is unimaginable...I never thought that I could be so involved in something like this.

So more than anything, this is like a child ( these forums ), and I only want what is best for him/her.

 

[Darcie]

Well put, i should have said something like that in regards to the oposit problem that set me off. We should also ask for details befor saying use fingiside whenever someone says, "help my plant is dieing" because as we have recently seen, mites and insects can also be a big problem.

Everyones coments have attually given me more data to work with and here is my interpritation of stuff combined with past knowledge and a few new factoids.

1) In a given forest of Oak, 200+ types of fungi are symbiotic with the Oak. Each oak will have about 100+ types living with it. In other words, plants have a heck of a lot of good fungi to choose from.

2) Good fungi can go bad, if a plant is weakend from something and is dieing, the fungi may end up recycling it as it dies, but is not the attual cause of death, so look for other problems when fungi goes nuts (granted you should get the fungi under control too).

3) Sterilizing soil won't do much if you have bad fungi spoors in the air. If you have had outbreaks of killer fungi, then the use of fungiside during dormency may be needed, but if you have never had evil fungi outbreaks, and you don't have new plants or soil, those bad spoors probubly aren't around enough to warrent precautionary fungiside use.

4) Fungi spoors are everyware all over the world and because they are so mobile, they spred about the glob quickly in potted plants. Fungi will also "hook up with" any plant that offers them a home. This sagest that regardless of the the type of plant, or it's location, a good spore will eventually land in the soil and hang out with the plant.

5) Bad spoors can also make their way into a potted plant for the same reson good ones can, but because good fungi will often fight off bad fungi and because only about 1% of the fungi out their is truely bad, bad spoors should not be overly feared untill a problem orrises

6) the best way to prevent fungi from attacking your plants is probubly to quarenteen new soil/plants for about a month. Quarenteening should inclued an air filter ina room very very far from other plants. If the spooring part of the fungi should suddenly appear or a plant start to droop, get the plant away from others. Once the spooring part is visable, THEN fungiside the snot out of it befor it can release the spoors. This way you get rid of the bad fungi but have time to make sure that really is the problem.

7) Large collections are more likely to become contaminated with an evil fungi and should be watched more carefully. Small collections probubly will be okay as long as they never meet another infected plant.

8) Not really related, but sort of cool, the often consitted bad fungi that rots out old trees is not attually bad. It is the tree's symbiot removing the center of the tree to make it more flexable in it's bulk. As the fungie removes the core, many stimulaye the tree to grow roots inside it's hollow area which give new plastic support and can reuse the food from the center. The hollow area also attracts animals which leave their fecies in the the center roots right where the tree can reach them. So, when you get right down to it, these fungi's still help the tree, it just looks odd to use!


Overall, I think reserch, information and sound judgement are whats really needed to better controle these relationships. I propose we begin takeing photoes of out fungi coverd plants and lableing them as did no damage, did damage. I will be willing to collect such images and place them on a website to pool information. While a good and bad fungi could look the same, this methoid may be able to give new and old growers alike a better chance at rating their surrent situation and what it calls for

-Darcie

P.S. This is my long term goal, to help everyone get a grip on what to do thats best for their plant without waiting till it's to late, killing something good or taking samples of fungi to a lab

 

[Tristan]

I would say that 90% of the time if you get a fungus outbreak then you need to look at you culturing method. Too much humidity, not enough light, not enough air circulation, ect, things like that could all be problems. Can't fix the problem? Maybe you should just grow another type of plant or even look for a nursery with more vigorous plants (I'm not trying to imply anything with that). In the long run this will fix the problem(s) instead of curing the symptoms.

 

[Parasuco]

The fungus outbreaks that are most common with carnivorous plant growers, are for the most part, bad. I don't know the statistics, it appears as though you do, with all your research, but even if only twenty five percent of fungi species were bad, who is to say that that twenty five percent is not more prolific, numerous, or procreates so quickly that by it's sheer numbers, outweighs the amount of good fungi that we'll come into contact with

I'm really having trouble articulating exacly what I mean, but I hope my message has been conveyed properly enough for you to understand what I mean...

The fungus we attack with chemicals is usually the kind that destroys our plants...

 

[Darcie]

okay, if the fungi attacking your plant is bad, it will make more bad spoors and your growing area is infected and yes you have to deal with it. Not all fungi is bad however, and most of the time you won't even see it unless you are digging the plant out for a differn't reson. about 1% of fungi spoor in the air of an open area is bad on average. Like I was saying, if you have a closed space with bad fungi multiplying you have a problem. The issue is that when people have no problem, but accidentally descover a fungi somewhere and feel the need to kill it. I guess what I was trying to say is each individual situation should determin it's own requirments and not blindly follow whatever works for someone else. BTW 25% bad spoor would be a lot, lol

 

[Darcie]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tristan @ Oct. 16 2002,06:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would say that 90% of the time if you get a fungus outbreak then you need to look at you culturing method.  Too much humidity, not enough light, not enough air circulation, ect, things like that could all be problems.  Can't fix the problem?  Maybe you should just grow another type of plant or even look for a nursery with more vigorous plants (I'm not trying to imply anything with that).  In the long run this will fix the problem(s) instead of curing the symptoms.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Definetly. I had a little algea (not a fungi) problem last winter and as soon as I opened up the bag to air a but more it cleared up

 

[Tamlin Dawnstar]

There is a big difference between habitat and cultivation. In habitat, there is good indication that mycorhizae form associations with many, if not all, species. Different mycorhizal fungi species can associate with each other, as well as with companion species of plants, forming a network for carbon exchanges in habitat. This is a network present in habitat.

In cultivation, this network is not present. Mycorhizae may indeed be beneficial, but there is no scientific literature that I am aware of that addresses mycorhizal associations specifically in CP, either in habitat or cultivation.

In cultivation, many species of CP are exposed to species of fungi which are non-native in their habitat. Since there is no resistance, such plants are especially sensitive to these fungi species.

Not all fungi are mycorhizal (associating with the root hairs). Many fungi are parasitic on live plants. Mycorhizal fungi associate with the roots, and the main studies have focused on associations with tree roots, not with CP in general.

Until some real science is done, I will stick to my guns regarding the prevention and elimination of fungi and algae. Potential destruction of plants is a *very* real possibility, and the possible speculative potential benefits of other fungi do not offset this fact.

Fungi break down the substrate and release the nutrients into the mix. Blue green algae fixes atmospheric nitrogen into the mix. Fungi can attack live plant tissue, and can spread rampantly through spores. These are facts, and the results are detrimental to good culture.

I see a lot of percent values, what are you basing these statistics on? If you are drawing from information in published literature, please quote the source?

I am not trying to be disagreeable or negative. I encourage you to do some controlled experiments, but do not assume that limited and uncontrolled observation equals fact.

 

[Darcie]

I know. I was sagesting people start collecting data. Science is observation. As for the % it's from my bioclass which means it's somewhere in Campbell Reece Biology Sixth Edition. To be precise, the relationships are best studied in orchids because they can not survive in cultivation without making sure they have their symbiotic systems intact. This was a mager break through for their growers because it explanced why the success of germination and cultivation was so widely varried from one plant to the next. Potted plants aren't really all that differn't from wild in terms of microbial links, they just may be more liminted. Also remember that fungi can do a lot of differn't things for plants, not just attach to their roots. I'm not saying we know anything and I'm not telling people with large collections to stop treating them as a large collection. I'm simply sugesting we start documenting traits of organisms we fined living in, on and around our plants to better understand them. I can't effectivly to controled studies without somewhere to start.