Recent forum practices

[brisco225]

No offense to any of the moderators, I do thank-you for the hard work you do.  However, due to the censorship and banning taking place at this forum, I am re-thinking my participation.  I have no idea what took place, but I keep hearing how awful it was.  I teach sixth graders, trust me, I can take the controversy and the general horror that took place with the thread.  If this forum wishes to manipulate, censor, and lock-down threads, then I urge others to join the International Carnivorous Plant Society forum, and I will be limiting or not participating in this forum. Life is not always full of roses or pretty events, however, we should not try to insulate ourselves in forums that are made out to be a utopic society.  For the sake of this forum, and for free speech in this world, please allow a discussion of the events that took place, before more members decide to leave.

Jeremy Roy

P.S. My original request to see the deleted threads that was locked-down, has been deleted. Please do not make any complete judgements based on this post alone.

 

[Capslock]

Jeremy,

I have nothing but respect for your position, which you made eloquently and with a good amount of thought. However, my position is a little different. I'm a long time forum participant, especially on "Politics" and "Religion and Ethics"-type boards, and I've seen first-hand what happens on unmoderated boards. Unfortunately, these are not like regular conversations among people. The internet affords an extra component of anonymity and insulation from accountability, and unfortunately, people take advantage of it. I've seen perfectly good boards with intelligent and good people totally self-destruct due to just a few bad apples. I've come to the conclusion that there is an appropriate level of moderation that is needed in public bulletin board services. In general, that amount is minimal, and I've seen boards go the other way, with power-hungry moderators going on banning sprees. Nothing will kill a board more quickly.

I missed the offending thread that started all this also. I have no idea what it was about. But I haven't seen any evidence that the moderators aren't doing the right thing, or that they are undermining the free flow of information and ideas. This board is as civil and friendly as pretty much any I've seen, which I think is due in part to the fact that we all share a common interest, and that CP people are generally superior.

I may be wrong, but I don't think this place is badly run.

And, I'd point out that your post was there for me to read.

Capslock

 

[Guest]

I read the thread everyone is talking about and I have to say I agree with the mods. What started out as a good post went bad when a (now banned) member couldn't discuss his opinion in a mature, thoughtful way. He insulted others and continually used a condescending attitude that wouldn’t be tolerated by anyone in person. I agree with Capslock- people tend to use the  “anonymity and insulation from accountability” to say things and behave in ways they would never get away with face to face.
What some are calling an "attack on freedom of speech" I see as a moderator doing their job. Everyone here deserves to be treated with respect and if people can't do that and leave personal grudges off the board (where they belong) then they shouldn't be posting here.
Just my 2 cents..

 

[nepenthes gracilis]

If you think we bann alot here we don't in fact we have only banned 3 members to my recollection in PFT history. Now 4. I locked your other topic as I want this to be a peaceful board, but I do see your intention now and will leave this topic open for you. I just can't see how a HOBBY like this can be so serious sometimes. Some people are great others are jerks and belive me there are alot of them out there in this little planet of ours. Most of this certain person's posts in my view were very ignorant and pompous and surly if you will. Some people that have tons of rare CP's or plants period and are ignorant people can throw their weight around and *think* they are superior to other people. Most everyone I have met both personally and electronically

are great souls. I haven't met one bad person that I directly came into conflict with. The actions that were taken also were due to the fact this person was told to take it up PRIVATELY but ignored to do so and decided to make a big eruption to the public and disrupt the whole board community. The old saying "One bad egg in a dozen ruins the batch." applys here directly. I just can't seem to understand why when someone is told to calm it down and act nicely they won't do it. How hard is it to do that? Not hard at all I say. If you can't do it you have no self dignity. *Cited from my history teacher Mrs. Molly Reilly.* I hope this in a summary helps you understand a little better what happened. If you need more info or anything else please fell free to email me or respond here.

buddhabear@gisco.net

 

[cephalotus88]

NepG is correct. As a moderator myself, I am not aware of this censorship. Are you referring to the occasional "talks" in other threads when some people disrespect others or say something wrong? That shouldn't be thought as censorship, but I way to keep the peace (Make love, not war

)

 

[carnivorous23]

Well, as long as we're still on the topic of this, I might as well toss in my opinion. I don't think banning the person was the best thing that could have been done - but the moderators had to do something. What happened wasn't censorship, it was simply moderators doing what they had to do to stop a flamewar. I don't like what happened, however. Even though the person who was banned can be a pain, he's just out defending himself, same as the moderators. As irritating as he has been at times on these boards, he still has much experience and useful information on raising CPs. It's a real shame he's banned, but the moderators didn't really have much choice.

 

[sarracenialuver]

Hi,
As a heavily involved member of the forum, I have seen alot of things go on, a few bad too. I feel that the mods aren't doing the job they were assigned completely, and letting things go to far. I will be re-thinking my position to the petflytrap discussion forums as well. I hope all understand. I feel I have done my part in helping numerous people with their problems. I may continue, I may not, I will see how I feel,
Kevin Peterson
Member since August 7th, 2002

 

[NickHubbell]

I was reading the posts that eventually ended up causing a member to be banned. The biggest point being missed is that he was told to stop is current line of discussion or he would be banned for continuing. He continued and was banned.

When I first joined this forum I started a topic that was heavely debated and eventually started to get out-of-hand. I was told to stop the discussion or be banned for doing so. I am still here because I chose to stop.

 

[RamPuppy]

Everyone...

The mods that lead this community are your friends. You know them, I would like to think you know me. I would think the evidence of how this community runs on a day to day basis would be enough evidence to the contrary that we are, and I should point out, especially me (since I have so obviously been singled out), not the tyranical despots some have made us out to be.

If one person comes up and starts screaming "CENSORSHIP! CENSORSHIP!!!" Why jump on the wagon? Life is not black and white! I gurantee you that the whole picture is not seen by you, the whole picture is not seen by most. Not even the individual on the other side of this dispute. There was a section of this forum degrading into an all out brawl and that simply is not acceptable! The user was warned and had his off topic posts removed 3 times before the fourth and final one that earned him a ban. It had nothing to do with what he was saying, and everything to do with how and when he said it!

Look people, you see police men involved in fights on the news every day, does that mean they are protecting you or that they are censoring someone? When mods have to get into it, were doing it for the community, not because we are tyrants or because we are power hungry, or even self centered, we do it because we want this place to grow, stay friendly, helpful and useful. It tarnishes us every time we have to get into one of these situations, and every single one of us hates it.

Brisco, NG locked an earlier topic because he did not want to see this forum degrade into a distasteful discussion and potentially into an argument, when police enforce a curfew after a riot are they censoring? No, They are keeping everything quiet until the embers cool.

When Lynda locked Petes topic she did so because she believed, as do I, enough had been said on this topic.

Unfortunately for some of you, you can't read what went on. You can't form your own opinion, I am sorry for that, but unlike in real life words said here don't go away unless some one makes them. You can still see bad happenings 'going on' for months, or even a year back if you want to dig far enough. The words don't dissapear and lose meaning like when you speak them and they fade into history. They are timeless unless a mod deletes them. It was an ugly thread that no one really wanted around, full of allegations and heated argument on both sides.

Finally, if you get pulled over, and a cop tells you to stop speeding, do you push the petal to the metal when he's done with you? Do you expect him to let you get off without a hitch when he pulls you over again? If you do it a third or a fourth time, do you think he won't pull you out of your car and slam you in the pokey? What if you spit on him in the process?

I would ask those of you that are worried about petflytrap... who have only seen half the story: Who is running around the internet posting trash about who? I posted here because I was forced into a response because I don't want to lose a good member. Same with Petes topic. Am I out there calling names? No, are the other mods? No. Am I going to other forums stirring up a riot against a community because of one person? No. Did I use a single persons name in a deragatory fashion in this post? Am I stifling your opinion? Am I trying to help your form your own? Or am I forcing my version of the facts on you. (Remember, you asked, I did not volunteer.) Ask yourself, how many times something like this has happened out of the tens of thousands of posts here... Twice maybe? Can you remember? I have 'dropped the ban' on every single person removed from this forum, and the number is so few, I do it so in-frequently, I honestly can't remember how many it's been. (Truthfully, ever time I go into the admin control panel I have to search for the feature... I never remember where it is.)

There is a very old saying: "You will know them by their fruit." I don't want to debate this, I don't want to get sucked into another argument (in fact I will not be). Like it or not, this place does have a system of authority, and when that authority speaks, it needs to be listened to. That is not arrogance or self importance speaking, that is they way systems work, when you don't heed it, it breaks down.

I am not a begging type or person, but I am pleading with anyone who doubts, to stop, and really think about it. The big picture. How many of you enter this forum every single day with the COMMUNITY as your primary thought? Improving it as your primary goal? How many of you have a tiller in your hand to steer the community in the right direction? How many of you have to say something when something goes wrong? I am honored to have this position, it wears on me sometimes, but I can GURANTEE you that I do not come in here looking for someones head to lop off, fingers to break or lips to seal shut.

If you can't believe me on that, then tell me, and I will gladly step aside. I do not want to lead a community that has no trust in me.

 

[Kate]

Ram,

I personally have the utmost faith in you to not only do what is right but to do what is needed when it needs to be done, regardless of how "popular" that makes you.


A gentle reminder here fellow forum members. In the United States of America (where most members are located) you are guaranteed the right to free speech SO LONG AS IT DOES NOT INFRINGE UPON THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS.

Something to think about before you cry censorship....

 

[phlitrapguy]

OK,

Honestly guys, I've had enough.

I sit here and watch, and hope someone will come to their senses and just stop the madness

I have a few things to say about this as the owner of this company and as a person that has worked hard for years to create an open environment to to talk about whatever the heck you want to without issue.

FIRST OF ALL. Jeremy, how DARE you come in here and jump on this censorship accusation when you didn't even have the opportunity to read what went on. To say there is censorship in this forum is an absolute joke and I can say that MOST people agree... and the few who don't are those that have broken the one rule we have, be nice/respectful. If you continue to teach school, I would hope that you pass on better values to your students than to sit in a room, listen to one side of a story, and make a decision. That is clearly not the way to make an INFORMED decision/opinion. So basically, by having this stance of "I'm not coming back because someone did something that I'm not sure about, but I don't think I like it...." sets an example. How about sitting on a jury... only hearing the victims side of a story... or whatever!! How can you DECIDE what goes on when you don't know the facts. Enough said on that.

ABOUT BANNING!

We don't do that ... often. There have been a total of 4 people banned... most for profanity. This individual was banned for other reason, mostly instigating unnecessary battles. It's NOT productive and bottom line, it's counterproductive! So, yes... a ban was made.... 4 bans in 2.5 years and 1400 members. THAT'S HARDLY CENSORSHIP AND HARD CORE BANNING!!!!

Again, Jeremy, learn the facts.

If you're not happy here, then fine... you can find a different place to interact. But bottom line is... this place attracts thousands of children, many are the ages that you teach. We want this to be a NON HOSTILE environment for kids and adults to interact about a simple hobby. That's it. Simple. End of story.

SO!

My stance:
I'm not reversing any ban. I believe that the moderator(s) have done the right thing ... they have been given the 'power' to do so because they are trusted friends, family, customers, and active forum members. They look out for the people of this community and have had to make some difficult decisions.

Steve (rampuppy) did exactly what needed to be done.

If Matt issues an apology to the forums for being a brat, then I'll *THINK* about letting him play here again.

SO! CAN"T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!!

If anyone has any issue with this, email me. pcrane@petflytrap.com

Though I receive hundreds of emails daily, I'll be sure to give you my opinion AGAIN first hand >=[ .. when I get the time.

Use this place as a resource. Use it to communicate with like minded people. Use it to make friends. But DO NOT USE IT FOR YOUR PERSONAL PEDESTAL. DO NOT MAKE IT A BATTLE GROUND.

Enough said on this. I'm going to bed.

All I can say ... is there are some days that make me wonder why on earth I created this forum. When I see some of the blatant disrespect and childish behavior. Unfortunately it's the vast minorty that make me feel this way because the majority of you are wonderful people... but heck... those that start to be disrespectful ... expect to find your way to another place, because I'm tired of it. It's spitting in the face of those who make the efforts to make this place a positive experience.

-Phillip

 

[brisco225]

I have never been involved with PFT politics, and in many ways, I was hoping to avoid doing so.  I do understand there is a need to moderate this forum, because I was a member of another forum where a fellow member was banned because all he did was spill out insults and use inappropriate language.  (Most of us thought he was a clown anyways.)  The reason why I inquired into this situation is because the forum member who was banned is now giving his point of view of what happened in other forums.  I can understand why the forum moderators elected to delete the thread, however, now he can claim anything he wants to about what happened and did not happen.  Others of us, who never read the thread, have no way to disprove or verify any claim he makes.  I guess my original concept of this whole affair was I wanted Matt to be judged by what he said.  I cannot make my own opinion on the situation because it no longer exists.          
   The only reason why my above post sounds critical is because when I inquired about the event, my thread was locked down.  I understand that my intentions were misread, and I thank Dustin for correctly reading my intentions.  As for my statements about censorship, I will admit I overreacted.  When my thread was locked down without much of an explanation, I was a bit shocked.  I will admit, and apologize for the censorship comment.  Any other comments directed at me personally or my teaching, please keep those off forum, that is what my message box is for.

Jeremy Roy

 

[BigCarnivourKid]

Jeremy and everyone else, I started righting this a couple hours ago and got paged back to work and am just now getting back on line to post.  Rather than go back through and change it to reflect anything that has been posted since Capslock's post I am just sticking it in "as is".

Jeremy,
I have been a member of this forum for a year as of the 7th of this month.  In that period, I have never seen a moderator lock a topic unless it was getting out of hand or had the potential to cause problems for the rest of us in this forum community as the thread you are referring to has.  I followed the thread in question, much as the insinuations made by the person who was banned irritated me (read that as p****ed me off).  This person had pulled something similar just a few months back.  It is my impression that this person was intentionally stirring things up.  

I have seen threads censored for unnecessary fowl language, to correct spelling and diction errors so the rest of us could understand what had at first appeared to be babbling.  On a few occasions some one has been called on the information they were presenting as a fact when it was contrary to the experience of the many of us or to commonly accepted practices.  Any time that the administrators or moderators edit a post, the date, time, and name of the administrator or moderator is automatically added to that post.  This date stamp can not be deleted by the moderator or administrator (someone correct me if I am wrong).

As you said, we do not live in a utopia by any stretch of the imagination, but the purpose of this forum is to make it as friendly a place as possible so that even the youngest members can participate in the topics without their parents having to worry about the content of the forum.  The topic in question had gotten out of hand.  Insults and insinuations were being made and the thread had gone well off topic and was getting worse.  The administrator (RamPuppy) stepped in and warned all parties involved to drop the dispute and get the thread back on topic and take the dispute up in private if they had more to say.  The person who was banned posted again on the dispute.  It was as a result of this that he was banned.  Had this dispute not degenerated to insinuations and insults it would not have been locked or deleted

Disagreements are inevitable in life.  There are good ways to handle them and bad ways to handle them.  In this forum, people are expected to respect each others opinion whether they agree with them or not, and not make personal attacks on them.  “Flaming” someone you disagree with is not tolerated here.

As stated before, there are only a few people who have been banned from this forum.  The three that I am aware of were banned for what boils down to disrespect for the rules of this forum .

I apologize for being lengthy in this reply, but after having read another post similar to this, I am getting the impression that “distortions of the truth” are being spread and I thought I should do something to help set the record straight.

Edited at 11:28, June 16, 2003
Just finished reading all that has been post since I started my reply all those hours ago. I am not changing single word.

 

[locationis]

I am not posting this message from my normal account because I do not wish people to attack me for speaking my mind.

This is a very sad situation.  Since some of you didn't see what happened here is a brief summary.

It should be clear to anyone who was paying attention that Matt's comments were misconstrued by some moderators and forum members.  

They came down on him hard because of false assumptions they made, and then announced the thread closed.

He tried to explain himself in order to resolve the situation just as anyone wrongly accused would have done but his replies were deleted by the mods, not because they contained profanity, but because a mod decided the thread was closed.

It was all there for people who were online at the time to see, but most people were busy feeding off the moderator's inappropriate wrath (based on their own misinterpretation of Matt's cryptic humor) rather than making an attempt to understand what he really meant and realize their mistake.

The thread was quickly deleted so now people here are agreeing over something they are completely wrong about, either because they did not read carefully enough to understand the intent, because they don't even care what he had to say, or because they didn't even get a chance to see it since it was removed so quickly.  

I feel that it is unacceptable for any people anywhere to gang up on someone because of a simple misunderstanding or personal differences and to then prevent them from addressing false accusations.  You might not have realized what was happening at the time, but how can you go back and look now that the thread's been deleted?

It is an unfair place where such an injustice is allowed to happen.  Any one of you would have done exactly as Matt tried to do.

The fact that you are still kicking someone who is down and can't properly defend himself is a disgrace.  The parties involved should be ashamed for bullying someone like that when you won't even let his explanation stay up so that others can make a less partial assessment of what occurred.

I'm out of here.

 

[phlitrapguy]

If you have an opinion, let it be known, no need to hide behind a false name >=[

Secondly, Matt refuses to comply with basic requests from moderators, and this isn't the first time.

If he wants a forum to instigate, this is not the place. If he wants a forum to share knowledge, then he can issue a general 'cease fire' (aka promise not to be a punk) and he'll be welcome here again.

 

[brisco225]

I don't know if I can blame locationis for using an alias.  Look how I'm getting knocked around like Mike Tyson in his last Championship fight!  

Hey Homer, why don't you join me.  The water's great!

Jeremy Roy

 

[phlitrapguy]

OK OK OK ...

You're not getting knocked around. I think what is happening here, is the very use of the word censorship without a clear picture of what is going on.

I don't care if people side with Matt or not. It doesn't bother me in the least that someone has an opinion contrary to mine.

It does bother me, however, when comments are made without any real data.

So yes, I bristle... when I see that happen. But I don't care if someone doesn't agree with me or the moderators. IF you take a close look, *I* am the only one beating you up, and it's for a good reason

... don't you think?

I expect no matter the situation, there is good and bad.. and people will form an opinion base on what they believe the facts are. But dont' think I'm going to sit here and not defend the actions of my friends, the efforts of our members, and the false accusations by people claiming we censor our forums.

So yes, if you say censorship in my presence, you will be beaten up

--- If you call me old.. you will be beaten up. <snicker> ... those are my only two weak spots.

-Phil

 

[brisco225]

Phil, YOU are knocking me around pretty good, however, my PRIVATE message to you should explain some things to you if you have not read it yet.  I do take offense to your comment about what I do teach my kids, and I believe it was very unprofesional of you to do so.  

Jeremy Roy

 

[unknownclown]

Im keeping this brief.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">He tried to explain himself in order to resolve the situation just as anyone wrongly accused would have done but his replies were deleted by the mods, not because they contained profanity, but because a mod decided the thread was closed.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

You know what youre failing to realize here is that he sent us mods PMs with the same responses that he posted, there was no reason to keep them up. I felt like he was just doing it to get a reaction out of us.

we did not gang up on him we were just trying to keep a peaceful forum. If you realy want to make a judgement do a search with Sundewmatts name and try and count how many times he disturbed these boards and disrespected the Moderators here. If you ask me he should have been banned along time ago.

 

[phlitrapguy]

Jeremy,

I did just reply, but as I said in your message, I'll say here.

Free speech goes both ways. So if we all want free speech, we have to take the good with the bad, even if it is directed at us personally (not hostile).

Free speech sure does seem to suit everyone when it's convenient for them, but watch out when the tables are turned and something is said that may not be so flattering.

I never said you were a bad teacher, nor did I personally attack you. I was making a point about one sided decision making.