Carnivory...what IS it?

[Dionaea Enthusiast]

Hey Suzanne,

You asked me a question so *of course* I have to answer it myself...even if five people have already answered it to some degree.

Basically, carnivorous plants used to be called insectivorous. Because people realized that cp do not eat insects exclusively, 'carnivorous' became more popular, and has stayed that way. If you see people still calling them 'insectivorous,' you know that those people either 1) have not found out that 'carnivorous' is a more appropriate term, or 2) just want to sound different from everyone else, to stand out from the crowd so to speak, or 3) for some reason are referring only to those plants that eat insects, which means that, for some reason, they have excluded Utricularia (utrics eat tiny crustaceans and microbes -- not what you'd consider insects). And yes, then there is the fact that other cp genera will often consume non-insects.

Chris

 

[<>-{VIRUS}-<>They]

My point exactly DE, I just wasn't in the mood to write that much, lol.

 

[RamPuppy]

Pyro...

I'll write more about the T-rex later...

But here is an interesting dichotomy... you have a agroup of scientists who say that T-Rex was an uber predator (your group) and my group, which says he was an opportunist, probably capable of eating smaller animals in a gulp.

so here's the catch... you say his teeth aren't designed to crush bone... I can buy that, however, there is the fact that tests have shown the roots of his teeth were to shallow to survive the shearing force of ripping a hunk of meet out, he would literraly, pull his own teeth while taking a huge bite out of his prey...

so, if' he's not a carrion eater, and he's not a carnivore... does that make him a vegitarian?

I still believe he is capable of eating carrion without the 'bone crushing' ability... after all, when's the last time you saw a vulture crush bones? many modern carrion eaters simply pick the bones clean, or swallow the bones along with everything else... and t-rex certainly has the gullet to handle that...

but I will tell you what I tell everyone (including my creationist dad.)

"Well, we weren't there, so we can't really know for sure." which tends to take the air out of everyones arguments!

 

[BigBaldBob]

cant tell for sure, but theres some pretty god evidence as to what did and didnt happen

 

[PlantAKiss]

Hi Chris

Thanks for the info...makes sense. I still see insectivorous used but more often its carnivorous.

And dinosaurs are fascinating. Its too bad we can't ever REALLY know that much...only theories. But it sure is interesting every time new fossils are discovered.

S

 

[Parasuco]

Oooh... Is the water cold now? I'm LATE I say, LATE!

My view... Roridula with its bugs... If you call purp and heliamphora carnivores, then you MAY not say that Roridula is not... All these plants have their own little buddies to do the digestion part of it first, the plants then, absorb the softer material (kind of like when you feed old people mush... The assisin bug and the bacteria are the blender)... Old people are still watever-they-happen-to-liquify-ivorous... Right?

Guinea pigs do the Kaka thing too... Why don't Pandas It would indeed be an adventageous adaptation...

 

[Dionaea Enthusiast]

Also, Greg, there is that regurgitating birds comparison...

BUT,
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">kind of like when you feed old people mush[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Trouble with this comparison is that um, er, the caregiver *doesn't* consume and then defecate the mush as a material more easily absorbed. lol had to point that out

And the kaka thing...yeah, I've seen hamsters do that too. Weird!

Chris

 

[Pyro]

Ram,

I don't know that I classify Rex as an uber predator so much as I think it was just a giant land-walking gator. He hunted things both big and small but was more than happy to eat something dead if he came across it too.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">so here's the catch... you say his teeth aren't designed to crush bone... I can buy that, however, there is the fact that tests have shown the roots of his teeth were to shallow to survive the shearing force of ripping a hunk of meet out, he would literraly, pull his own teeth while taking a huge bite out of his prey...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I know these tests and the problem with them (as with many scientific tests) is that they were preformed by people looking for a specific result and were designed to find the result they were looking for to the exclusion of any other result. Their test was the "Take a steak knife, slam it into a 2x4 and pull straight back" method and in this method they, and you, are correct that Rex's teeth could not take the strain, the catch 22 is that NO animal teeth can take that strain. Here is the Rex predator theory: take a pair of cookie cutters, one slightly smaller then the other, and overlap them similar to out teeth. Attach these to a compress and put the 2x4 between them. Now "bite" and what you get it a chunk of 2x4 (or flesh if you are a Rex.)


</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I still believe he is capable of eating carrion without the 'bone crushing' ability... after all, when's the last time you saw a vulture crush bones? many modern carrion eaters simply pick the bones clean, or swallow the bones along with everything else... and t-rex certainly has the gullet to handle that...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Vultures don't eat the bones, they stick their teeny tiny little heads into all the nooks and crannies and pick the loose stuff free. Rex had a big 'ol head, not good for getting into nooks and crannies.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Well, we weren't there, so we can't really know for sure." which tends to take the air out of everyones arguments![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

You are correct. But doesn't that same statement take the air out of your arguments too? So now we are all without air and living in a vacuum. <GASP> "Can't breath <GASP>

 

[RamPuppy]

Exactly!

I make these 'arguments' with a grain of salt, because when you really get down to it, there is no way of knowing without truly examining the animal, living and breathing.

Nooks and crannies, by the way, on a brontosaurus, are significantly larger than most organisms nooks and crannies...

I wouldn't be suprised if the T-Rex even had adaptations we don't know about, like a tounge with bone teeth in it (many fish have this) for grinding, and they could have been so small every expedition to date had missed them... or perhaps a gizzard of some sort...

there are all types of things we don't know...

Many of you know that I am a creationist, and my father has pretty much decided to live his years in retirement for the betterment of that science...

He has a book with several texts in it that date way back to the roman occupation of england which account three types of creatures natives of the islands claim to have seen.

1) a small lizard like bird, with the 'eye markings of a moth' on it's wings, it lived in trees like flocks of birds.

2) a creature that lived in the forest and shot acid from it's mouth that could eat through hard leather armor (possible the origin of the Britannic Dragon?)

3) And this one I think is cool... apparently a large lizard, with a head the size of a wagon 'stormed' a village, it was said to stand upright with a tail extended behind it, and posess terrible snapping jaws. It's hands are noted to be so tiny that they are useless... (sounds like a T-Rex like predator (of which there were MANY different types).

Any how, I am not offering this as evidence in any way shape of form that dino's and man walked the earth together, I just thought it was interesting, especially a descritpion of a T-Rex type creature hundreds of years before their discovery.

Any how... it's just a novelty post... don't anyone get all twisted up over this.

 

[<>-{VIRUS}-<>They]

My view on the T-Rex is that there are a few groups of people that study the T-Rex to its fullest and have their own view on what the T-Rex was (opportunist, predator, or scavenger, etc, etc...) and are looking for anything, ANYTHING to prove their theory right, and I whiling to leave out facts that disprove it. I just like to read the conflicting stories and learn more about the subject. I do not believe everything I read and I do not take anything to heart. I am not going to say that I KNOW that T-Rex is a predator because the fact is I really don't know and I cant really prove that he is. All I can say is he is ONE of the biggest meat consuming, bipedal, dinosaurs and has nothing to do with carnivorous plants beside a good example and an interesting argument.

P.S. Good luck in growing CP's and raising a T-Rex, LOL.

 

[Pyro]

Virus,

I think we can all argee with you on your description of T-rex. And in the end we won't know until I get done with my time machine

Ram,

I hope you don't think I was getting in a twist over this. I was just having fun arguing one of the dino things that I like to have fun arguing (if you really want to get me going let's talk about the giant meteor that DID NOT kill the dinos.)

I like the idea of bone teeth in the tounge and those are definitly something that could be missed, after all, they only just found out that Apatosaurus (Brontosaurus) had a second set of "ribs" in its belly as armor and they are starting to find all kinds of feather now that they know to look.

As for the interesting animals, I can only comment that the second one sounds very much like the mytho-beast known as the basalisk.

Pyro

 

[<>-{VIRUS}-<>They]

A basilisk was a dragon that had the head of a chicken and the body of a snake that was so ugly that you would die or turn to stone if you looked at it depending on who you asked. There is also a real lizard called a basilisk that has the ability to run on water.
The first creature to me unless they are suggesting pterosaurs seems to remind me of a Kuehneosaurus.
I love these arguments because it is not everyday I get to have an intelligent discussion about two of my passions.

 

[RamPuppy]

Pyro, I didn't think you were getting in a twist, it was just that in the old place (looks down, crosses chest to ward of demons) the first time I mentioned I was a creationist people were ready to burn me at the steak! No respect for dissenting opinions!

Virus, one of the wonderful things about this place, is that as long as the main topic of a thread has been addressed, topic drift is allowed, and no one really cares. So yes, it's not about CP's at this point, but who cares? We are having fun discussing as friends, which is what General Discussion is for...

Pretty neat stories huh? Basalisk... will have to look that up... You know i love reading the Honor Harrington series, and one of the ships in there, a super dreadnaught, is called Bellaphron, until MI2 I never knew he was a greek hero, and that his arch nemesis was Chimera... When I learned that, I studied it, now I wll study Basilisk, as it to, is a ship, actually, a station, in the books... interesting.

any how... on with life!

 

[Pyro]

Virus,

The basalisk has a lot of different descriptions; the bird headed serpent was one, an 8-legged lizard is another and I have heard of a third where it was made of stone. Its powers were also quite varied; breath that would burn, the gaze that turned you to stone (this coupled with the serpent body makes me wonder if the basilisk is an evolution of the Gorgon myth,) a scream that could shatter a man.

Ram,

Shouldn't that be 'stake' and not 'steak'

LOL

I didn't think I was coming of as getting in a twist but I like to make sure I'm not offending anyone. And I can tell you that I don't have a problem with you being a creationist so long as you don't have a problem with me being an evolutionist and I can guarantee you that I will not try to force my dogma on to you and there will be no stake (or steak) burning from me either

Pyro

 

[RamPuppy]

hehh... perhaps I was typing a little fast?

I have no problem with anyone being an evolutionist, or anything else for that matter... the only time it offends me is when STUPID people try to argue me away from my beliefs... takling with you is a blast, but I absolutely hate it when some person armed with high school biology tries to tell my how flawed my views are... then I have to whomp on him...

cause as has been said, scientists test their hypothesis to reach their pre-concieved conclusions, pretty much all scientists that are good do this, as it is part of the scientific method. (Or what would the point of making a hypothesis be?

)

The simple fact of the matter is, in both the creationist and Evolutionist camps there are brilliant scientists, and bad scientists, people seeking truth, and people seeking dogma, people who are well balanced, and people who are fanatics...

I tend to be pretty level headed when it comes to my science... so I consider myself to be armed with good science... for the most part... and when ignorant people try to get in a debate with me, I bombard them with so much information they just kind of whither back... hopefully, they will take a few months to study their beliefs.

All I really ask of anyone, is that they learn how to think, not learn what people tell them to think. Both scientific viewpoints have valid science behind them, it does gaull me that only one side is presented as science, the other as religion... but hey, what's a boy to do.

I am all about choices, so as long as people make informed ones, I am absolutely cool with it!

 

[BigBaldBob]

i got lost after yall two started arguing (pyro and rampuppy)
i forget wich dinosaur it was, cuz i dont remember names well, but theres this bigger dinosaur, that, if fought against t-rex WOULD win in a fight, BUT this is if in an open field, t-rex seemed to live among trees, and if they fought there HE would win, though these dinosaurs lived millions of years apart, this other dinosaur i cant remember the name of, was bigger, and lived AFTER the t-rex, not related in any way,
so in fact, the t-rex keeps its title as king,

 

[Pyro]

BBB,

Velociraptor, in packs, could probably take down any other dinosaur.

Spinosaurus (if you saw JP3 you know him) was actually longer that Rex but mass for mass Rex was still larger so a fight between them would probably be an interesting thing to watch

Pyro

 

[BigBaldBob]

ya in packs, lol t-rex in packs AHAHAHA, omg, lol, with the leader mutating and growing arms aahaha
no this dinosaur in fight, was actually BIGGER than t-rex in weight also, but less ferocious

 

[schloaty]

I think I know what Bigbaldbob is talking about. I seem to remember reading about them finding this ENORMOUS fossil in....I want to say North Africa? That looked like a giant t-rex but later turned out to be something different.

 

[BigBaldBob]

ya i think u got it, i remember something about a sea on the middle of north america though, so the east and west were divided,
aww forget it im confused  

 

 

 

 

edited by BigBaldBob --- at 7:46 pm
ya i never watched JR3 yet

i guess it might be time to rent it on video, is it out yet