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"seedlings dont need dormancy"

I keep hearing/reading all the time on many CP forums that "seedlings of VFTs or Sarracenia dont need a winter dormancy for the first year or two"..

im not saying that is wrong, because I dont know..
but I do have to question it..because it defies logic.
where did this idea come from?
did someone just make it up and now its believed as fact?
or is there is there good solid evidence and experience to back this up? if so, where?

in the wild, all sarracenia and VFT seedlings get a dormancy their first winter, without fail..if the adult plants require a dormancy (which they obviously do) why wouldnt seedlings also require a dormancy? why would seedlings be different from adult plants as to dormancy requirements?
I would like to know where this idea came from..
it worrys me that it might be an "internet rumour"
this concept only seemed to appear in the last year or so, I dont recall ever hearing about it before, and I dont think it is in any books or the ICPS journal (although ti could be, I havent personally read every issue of the journal!
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anyone ever seen it there?

thoughts? personal experience?

thanks,
Scot
 
In the same way that tissue cultured plants, you can give them dormancy if you want and that is what they would experience in the wild. However they apparently grow up faster if you skip it, and I believe John Brittacher on the ICPS website
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Yeah, the only reason is so the plants grow a little quicker, get mature quicker.
 
hmmm..interesting,
thanks Alvin!

here are the 2 pages where John Brittnacher talks about letting the seedlings go 2 years without dormancy:

http://epm-britt.ucdavis.edu/Savages/SarSeed.htm

http://www.carnivorousplants.org/seedbank/species/Sarracenia.htm

but I still dont know why the seedlings dont need dormancy for 2 years!
I guess the answer is "because they dont"
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well, apparently it really works.. I wont complain!

I am growing Sarr seedlings this fall, they are busy stratifying right now..so basically I will let them grow all of 2004 and 2005, and let them go dormant in the autumn of 2005, approx 2 years from now...I just wanted some conformation that this 2 year concept is real..
update in 2 years then!
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Scot
 
Maybe it's the fact that there isn't enough of a plant there yet to require dormancy. For any dormancy to succeed at all would require stored energy of some sort. As far as seedling Dionaea and Sarracenia, I don't think there's actually what would be considered a rhizome developed yet. The plants still working on growing and establishing itself so that it can survive. Skipping the dormancy for those first two years which does not seem to harm the little guys, gives them more of a fighting chance. They don't have to deal with fungus and mold, or a million other things that could happen during a natural dormancy, and they can continue to grow to build up any sort of resistance to those threats.

After those two years it has also increased the size of the rhizome and finished forming all that it needs to survive. I'm sure sarracenia have been known to start dividing themselves here and there after two or three years from seed, but before that i'm doubtful. I've even seen Dionaea seedlings that after two years started developing into dense clumps, but not prior.
 
I had heard of the two year theroy as well and I found friends of mine that had grown sarracenias and they did this with great sucess to 'hurry' the plants along. I personally grew seedlings through last winter and on into this summer with no adverse effects. I plan on bringing 100s of 9 month old seedlings in this winter to keep them going. I will report back to you. Here is a photo of one of the seedlings that went through last winter. It took off this summer when it got hot. Notice the multi breaks in the rhizome already.

9monthseedling.jpg
 
Now Brooks, show them a pic of the plants that stayed out for the winter so that they can appreciate the difference not giving a dormancy makes
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It there anyway to find out how old a plants is, if you just bought them?? i just bought some new, small sarrs, And i'm realy wondering if I would be able to keep them without dormacy this winter...

Greetings & happy growing,

WildFire
 
Pyro,
You make a good point but the problem is I have only been growing these a year and all of mine came in so there is nothing to compare to. I will certainlly have lots to compare to next spring though.
 
  • #10
Hey Brooks... is that a Judith Hindle? It looks very similar to mine.. My limited background of Sarracenia makes it difficult for me to ID them.

Thanks
Steve
 
  • #11
Steve,
It is not Judith Hindle. It is an unknown hybrid, a moorei cross I believe, too soon to tell.
 
  • #12
Herenorthere sent me 2 1 1\2 year old s.leucopila that didn`t go through dormancy that are 1 foot tall,and he also sent me a 1 1\2 year old hybrid that did go through dormancy and its only 2 inches tall! Now my question can i now grow the hybrid this winter without a dormancy? p.s Thanks again herenorthere!
 
  • #13
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Alvin Meister @ Aug. 27 2003,10:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In the same way that tissue cultured plants, you can give them dormancy if you want and that is what they would experience in the wild. However they apparently grow up faster if you skip it, and I believe John Brittacher on the ICPS website  
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[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>


Phil Faulisi Made a new hybrid around the year 2000. He did not skip dormancy ANY year. guess how big the plant is at 3 years old... over 2 1/2 feet!!
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Now, I doubt I'd ever be able to get a plant to 2 1/2 feet by skipping dormancy for the first 2 years...
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Ok, so maybe for some it speeds up growth, and for some it doesn't... maybe dormancy speeded up growth for phil 'cause he grows plants so well
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Post edited 5 minutes after post
 
  • #14
I'm not a botanist but here is my theory on why the young plants don't need a dormancy period.

During the normal growing period, the plant slowly stores up nutrients and chemicals for the winter.  These could possibly be for surviving frosts, or the give it the ability to grow rapidly after the winter.  Think of it as 'fat' in a way.  If not given a period to use this 'fat' the chemicals in fact can build up to a point where they can slow the growth of the plant if not poison itself.  (ie a little fat is good, a lot of fat is bad)

On the other hand the seedlings are too small to have built up a significant amount of this fat (think surface area ratio to volume) so they aren't as affected by it.  Also since it takes a good year for a plant to know where in the year it is, it can be 'fooled' to delay storing this fat and put more effort into growth.

Well I think its plausible, I just need a couple botanists and chemical engineers to verify it for me.
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  • #15
INTERESTING THEROY J BUT A BOTANIST FRIEND OF MINE EXPLANINED WHY SOME PLANTS ARE BETTER AT SURVIVING FROST THAN OTHERS. IT HAS TO DO WITH CONVERTING FOOD TO SUGAR AS THE TEMPS GRADUALLY GET LOWER AS FALL COMES ON. YOU SEE SUGAR WATER FREEZES AT A LOWER TEMP THEN JUST WATER. THINK OF IT AS ANTI-FREEZE FOR PLANTS. AN EXAMPLE WOULD BE A BEET THAT GETS SWEETER AFTER A FROST, MORE SUGARS. THIS STILL DOES NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION AS TO WHY THE SEEDLINGS CAN DO WITHOUT A DORMANCY. ANYBODY?
 
  • #16
I would say they don't need dormancy because they are quite a lot different from the adult plants. They don't grow at specific times, such as S. leucophylla and every seedling grows continually without a rest. Their main job is to store up energy and create a rhizome store and the larger they become the more surface area they have for photosynthesis. At some point they must become like the adult plants and behave like their respective species, but seedlings are not like the adults. So perhaps the answer is 'just because they are seedlings'?
 
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