Which religions are represented here?

[scottychaos]

For Noah,
great stuff! I like the way you think..even if I dont agree with all of it!

Quote[/b] ]That, as you well know, is the overstatement of the day. There is a lot of evidence for a flood, and much of the stuff found in the Bible. Don't give sweeping statements like that unless you are willing and able to back them up with something.

I can back them up with plenty!
its really not an overstatement at all..
yes there is evidence for *small* *local* floods..
but there is no evidence to support "Noah's flood"..the great global flood.
there is no uniform silt layer found everywhere on the planet, as there should be if the global flood was true.
the flood myth goes against many of "natures laws" and against many laws of physics and logic..
all the layers of the earth disprove the flood myth.
rather than post all the hundreds of problems with the flood theory, I will just let these links speak for me:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH541.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH542.html

To Jeremiah:

Quote[/b] ] have a few questions for you.

Where do you believe the bible to be untrue?

Where is the so called "facts" to support evolution?


Hope to hear you response.

no problem!
I believe the bible to be untrue in the matter of literal creationism (genesis) and the flood story..among others..
here are some facts to support evolution.

Fossil layers in sedementary rocks have primitive animals in lower, older layers, and more advanced plants and animals in higher, younger layers..
you NEVER find mammal or dinosaur fossils in the same layers with Trilobyte fossils! why not? easy..because they didnt live at the same time..
they were seperated by many millions of years.

the horse.
Fossils exist for many intermediate froms leading up to the modern horse.
from a small dog-like crerature right up to our modern horse.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/horse_evol.html
the evolution of the horse can be read like a time-lapse movie!
its accepted as fact (by everyone except literal creationists that is)

Birds evolved directly from dinosaurs..
why no bird fossils mixed in with dinosaur fossils?
why did bird fossils only appear *after* the dinsoaurs were extinct?
its very easy to explain these puzzles in the fossil record!

australopithecus afarensis.
this was a real creature.
no one made up these fossils!
How does creationism explain a creature that has both Ape characteristics and Human characteristics? it cant.
it doesent fit into the bible.
These creatures were nearly human..wouldnt God have mentioned our more primitive cousins if they were walking around with Adam and Eve?
why didnt he?
there were also dozens of other primitive human-like creatures..yet there is zero mention of any of them in the bible..why not?
just the simple fact that different fossils exist in different layers is enough to blow the flood theory and creationism both out of the water..
neither theory (flood or literal creationism) can explain why Trilobyte fossils appear ONLY in very old rock layers..and at the same time why mammal and bird fossils exist ONLY in totally different and much newer layers..
Science has no problems explaining those facts..

Creationists need to go to MUCH MUCH greater lengths to explain away everything on and in the earth that disproves their theory..
While scientists have no such problems with geology or fossils..

I could go on..but you asked for proof, and I gave some..
Scot

 

[SnowyFalcon]

Quote[/b] ]neither theory (flood or literal creationism) can explain why Trilobyte fossils appear ONLY in very old rock layers..and at the same time why mammal and bird fossils exist ONLY in totally different and much newer layers..

Why can't I? Lets say it starts raining. Puddles quickly form, these puddles become lakes and these lakes quickly become oceans. These oceans eventually cover the earth in a seething mass of water.

Now, if I were a trilobyte, how fast could I move away from the oncoming water? Not very fast! I would be among the first to die. What about small reptiles and fish? The next to die. The mammals though can run to dry ground for a while, but eventually, they start to tire and the water catches up to them. Bye bye small mammals. The birds are in the same boat (hahaha). Can a bird fly forever?

This would explain the seeming 'development' of species from simple lifeforms to complex.

SF

 

[scottychaos]

ok..so "slower" animals get buried first, and so appear in the lower layers, and "faster" animals get buried later, and so appear in the upper layers..

A tribolite was an OCEAN creature..
why wouldnt it live the longest and so appear only in the upper layers? how does it *speed* have anything to do with it?

why did fish die before land animals?
shouldnt they live the longest, (because they can swim) and only be in the upper layers?
what would cause fish to die before mammals?
shouldnt fish live much longer than mammals in your theory?
if not, why not?

Why did all the dinosaurs die before mammals?
they were both land animals..
why dont dinosaur and mammal fossils appear in the exact same layers? they dont..

What about flying dinosaurs?
if they died last, along with the birds, because they could all fly, why arent there flying dinosaur fossils ABOVE all the land-dwelling mammal fossils? there are none..

what about all the land plants?
should they all die BEFORE the birds and flying dinosaurs?
Why are there plant fossils in all layers from top to bottom?

What about austropilicus afarensis?
shouldnt he be just as fast as "modern" humans?
then why are his fossils ONLY below the fossils of modern humans? why did he die first?

what about flying insects?
shouldnt they have all died last? along with the birds?
Then why are there flying insect fossils FAR FAR below mammal, and even dinosaur fossils?

How did fresh water fish survive at all?
Salt water will kill them..
there were no heated aquariums on the ark..

How did animals that exist only in the Americas make it to the Ark? how did new-world monkeys and all the Amazonian birds, that exist no where else in the world, make it to the Ark?
what about Kangaroos?

why did some animals only end up in isolated areas AFTER the flood and no where else?
how did kangaroos end up ONLY in Australia after the flood?
they cant swim..

why did new-world monkeys only end up in South America after the flood..and why are old-world monkeys ONLY in Africa? the climates are similar enough..they could live together if they needed to..so why arent they all mixed together?
Did the South American monkeys all swim across the Atlantic ocean? (and ONLY them?! why?)

How does your flood theory explain all these problems?

Scot

 

[SnowyFalcon]

Quote[/b] ]A tribolite was an OCEAN creature!
why wouldnt it live the longest and so appear only in the upper layers? how does it *speed* have anything to do with it?

Have you ever seen a river bank after a minor flood? What happens? Erosion right? The seas would be filling with silt, washing off the land. It makes perfect sense that the things at the bottom of the ocean that are slow and stupid would get buried easily.

Quote[/b] ]why did fish die before land animals?
shouldnt they live the longest and only be in the upper layers?
what would cause fish to die before mammals?
shouldnt fish live much longer than mammals in your theory?
if not, why not?

The same thing goes here. If you talk to any aquarium hobbyist, would a fish live long in a swirling whirlpool of sand and silt?

Quote[/b] ]Why did all the dinosaurs die before mammals?
they were both land animals..
why dont dinosaur and mammal fossils appear in the exact same layers? they dont..

I didn't say that they did. Like I said before, I think there are still dinosaurs today (BTW, if we found one, what would that do to your theory that they're all extinct?).

The fossils are NOT exactly layed out in a straight line from trilobytes to humans. On different parts of the earth, they are in different orders! That chart I believe you are referring to is not accurate.

Quote[/b] ]What about flying dinosaurs?
if they died last, along with the birds, because they could all fly, why arent there flying dinosaur fossils ABOVE all the land-dwelling mammal fossils? there are none..

Let me ask this. If there are hurricane force winds and really nasty weather, do you think a 10 foot SAIL of a pteradon wing or whatever is going to be able to take it? They are not going to be able to fly far at all!! I live in Florida and can tell you that everything flies BEFORE the hurricanes hit. When the hurricane hits, no wildlife can be seen.

Quote[/b] ]what about all the land plants?
should they all die BEFORE the birds and flying dinosaurs?
Why are there plant fossils in all layers from top to bottom?

Easy! Have you ever seen a flood? Or even pictures on the TV? Do you see those trees, bushes and other plant life floating away? I guarantee you the flood I'm talking about was 10 X bigger than any flood we see on TV today!

Quote[/b] ]What about austropilicus afarensis?
shouldnt he be just as fast as "modern" humans?
then why are his fossils ONLY below the fossils of modern humans? why did he die first?

I believe that only Noah and his family survived the flood, not the whole human race, not "modern" humans. ALL the human race was destroyed (except for Noah and company). Humans are humans, there is no difference. If austropilicus afarensis lived in a valley, or had some crippling disease, he died first. Its that simple.

Quote[/b] ]what about flying insects?
shouldnt they have all died last? along with the birds?
Then why are there flying insect fossils FAR FAR below mammal, and even dinosaur fossils?

Flying insects? If it is pouring buckets of rain, do you really think the insects could fly far? After smashing into about a billion raindrops, they're going to do a little spiral into the puddle below and drown. We're talking a deluge here, not some light sprinkling.

Does that about cover it?

SF

 

[scottychaos]

ummm..no, that doesent cover it at all.

Quote[/b] ]Have you ever seen a river bank after a minor flood?  What happens? Erosion right?  The seas would be filling with silt, washing off the land.  It makes perfect sense that the things at the bottom of the ocean that are slow and stupid would get buried easily.

ok, that might work for trilobytes..
how about Coral? coral cant move at all..
should have been quickly buried and killed outright.
how did coral even survive at all? they cant float..they are firmly stuck to the ground (ocean floor)

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]  
why did fish die before land animals?
shouldnt they live the longest and only be in the upper layers?
what would cause fish to die before mammals?
shouldnt fish live much longer than mammals in your theory?
if not, why not?

The same thing goes here.  If you talk to any aquarium hobbyist, would a fish live long in a swirling whirlpool of sand and silt?

so did ALL fish die then?
obviously not, sice we still have fish today..
so why did only *some* fish die in the swirling silt, and not others?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]  
Why did all the dinosaurs die before mammals?
they were both land animals..
why dont dinosaur and mammal fossils appear in the exact same layers? they dont..

I didn't say that they did.  Like I said before, I think there are still dinosaurs today (BTW, if we found one, what would that do to your theory that they're all extinct?).

that didnt answer the question..
even if dinosaurs do still exist today, why are ALL dinosaur fossils found below ALL mammal fossils?
I also dont believe dinosaurs are extinct, they are now called birds. but dinosaurs are NOT the same as birds..its easy to tell the tell the difference between a fossil dinosaur, mammal, and bird..and all dinosaur fossils exist far below all mammal and bird fossils..your assumption that dinosaurs still exist today does nothing to explain that fact..
if they still exist today, explain why mammal fossils and dinosaur fossils do NOT appear in the same layers? ever.

Quote[/b] ]I believe that only Noah and his family survived the flood, not the whole human race, not "modern" humans.  ALL the human race was destroyed (except for Noah and company). Humans are humans, there is no difference.  If austropilicus afarensis lived in a valley, or had some crippling disease, he died first.  Its that simple.

again, you didnt answer the question..
austropilicus afarensis  was not a human..its a different creature..you cant assume it died first just because it lived in a valley or was sickly! it was neither..it lived all over and was perfectly healthy..and there were thousands of them..not just a huddling group of them in a valley..
so you didnt explain why austropilicus afarensis died first and appears in layers below modern humans..please try again.

So, you say flying dinosaurs died before birds because they cant take the wind..
Flying insects died before birds because they cant take the rain..
but birds CAN handle the wind and the rain better, and so died AFTER the flying dinosaurs and the flying insects?
please explain how birds are better able to withstand wind and raindrops better than flying dinosaurs and flying insects..which made birds die later, and so appear only in the higher layers..

and I know I probably added some of these as you were typing you reply, but I have several more issues for you!

here are some more issues I would like explained by the flood theory..



How did fresh water fish survive at all?
Salt water will kill them..
there were no heated aquariums on the ark..

How did animals that exist only in the Americas make it to the Ark? how did new-world monkeys and all the Amazonian birds, that exist no where else in the world, make it to the Ark?
what about Kangaroos?

why did some animals only end up in isolated areas AFTER the flood and no where else?
how did kangaroos end up ONLY in Australia after the flood?
they cant swim..

why did new-world monkeys only end up in South America after the flood..and why are old-world monkeys ONLY in Africa? the climates are similar enough..they could live together if they needed to..so why arent they all mixed together?
Did the South American monkeys all swim across the Atlantic ocean? (and ONLY them?! why?)

How did the flood deposit crinoid fossils on top of mount everest? crinoids were "slow dumb" animals attached to the sea floor, just like the trilobytes..so they should appear only in the bottom layers..(and they do!)
but..how did they get all the way up on top of mountains?
and become PART of the mountains..they arent just sitting there loose in the open..the fossils are embedded in the actual rock that makes up the mountain tops..
but..in the flood, they were buried in the first, deepest layers only..and only on the bottom of the oceans..they never lived on land.
how did they get to the tops of tall mountains?
waves and currents couldnt move them..if you suggest turbulant waters of the flood moved layers around, that kills your entire layering theory of animals dying in a specific sequence..because everything should be all mixed up then..
and it isnt.
need another way for those crinoids, buried first and deepest by the flood, to get up on top of mount everest..

Scot

 

[SnowyFalcon]

I won't have time to reply to this topic for a day or two. School work is piling up. I will answer your questions though, Scot, and then it will be my turn to ask!

Give me a while to catch up.

SF

 

[jimscott]

Hey Justin - does the problem with your pc have anything to do with having the forum say, "Welcome Guest?" instead of Welcome God's Garden? If so, you just have to manualy login with your forum name and password. Poof, problem solved! Of course, that's probably not the problem or the solution. I tried.

 

[scottychaos]

ok SF!
sounds good..

 

[BigCarnivourKid]

Oh man,  Just like a commercial break when the program is getting good!  But school work is important so I won't begrudge you the break.  I've enjoyed following this topic guy's.  Definately some brain fodder for this lapsed Episcopalian to mull over.

BCK

 

[God's garden]

Hey Jim I'll reply here also.
I have a pocket PC/ phone that I use at home to surf the web, Sprint 2032sp by toshiba. When I try to log in manualy on this it locks up. I can still surf but my user name and password pop up on every screen I go to after that.It makes it kind of hard to read the messages.Like I said I've placed orders at online nurseries with it, but for some reason it gives me problems here. My work PC is fine though. THANKS

 

[Spectabilis73]

Quote[/b] (scottychaos @ Mar. 11 2004,12:24)]-Scott

this is a very interesting discussion! I'm not good at proving anything, but here are some of my answers;

Coral? haven't you seen documentary films showing massive waves pounding the coral and breakinng it off the ocean floor? the coral would then float to the surface then get grinded to a powder to form beaches.
Fish: can't really answer that one...  

dinos: you'd think big 12 ton dinos would sink, and little marmosets and other little mamals would float a bit longer.  Also, all reptiles never stop growing throughout their lives, am i right? so, when there was the extra layer of water in the atmosphere, everything could live longer. so, the little reptiles we have today would have grown to enourmous sizes, right?
back to extinct fish:
I believe most of the fish went down into the depths to escape the turrents near the surface... and that is why the fossils usually found lower than most other creatures. also, thos worm like things people say we started out as? hagfish and other "worm like" fish live way in the depths in the ocean, down many miles.
have you ever sprayed dragonflys with the water form your hose? they can barely withstand the sprinkle, and fall to the ground. they would be some of the first to die too

many freshwater fish can handle brackish and saltwater. also, whos to say noah didn't have built in ponds on the ark?

Quote[/b] ]why did some animals only end up in isolated areas AFTER the flood and no where else?
how did kangaroos end up ONLY in Australia after the flood?
they cant swim..

asia, europe and australlia were connected at one time... how do you know the roos didn't migrate down to warmer australlia?

Quote[/b] ]How did the flood deposit crinoid fossils on top of mount everest? crinoids were "slow dumb" animals attached to the sea floor, just like the trilobytes..so they should appear only in the bottom layers..(and they do!)

that doesn't make sence... you are saying they are found at the top of mount everest, then you are saying they are not, and found only lower... also, the creatures could ahve been caught in large glaciers and froze... ice floats, right?

Those are my answers.

back to you, scott and snowy falcon

 

[jimscott]

Quote[/b] (BigCarnivourKid @ Mar. 11 2004,20:47)]Oh man,  Just like a commercial break when the program is getting good!  But school work is important so I won't begrudge you the break.  I've enjoyed following this topic guy's.  Definately some brain fodder for this lapsed Episcopalian to mull over.

BCK

We're just catching our collective breaths and retooling. But sooner or later we will also make our respective decisions.

 

[scottychaos]

Spect,
you cant just make stuff up and offer it as support of a theory..
we are dealing with facts, not stuff that is made up and just "sounds good"..

Quote[/b] ]Coral? haven't you seen documentary films showing massive waves pounding the coral and breakinng it off the ocean floor? the coral would then float to the surface then get grinded to a powder to form beaches.
Fish: can't really answer that one...  

you are missing the point..coral are living animals..
the reefs are stone made from their exoskeletons..
if coral animals get ripped out of the reef..they die..no question. I want to know how the coral *animals* got buried in the silt of the flood and yet survived..
coral animals are still alive today, so they must have survived the flood..how did they?

Quote[/b] ]dinos: you'd think big 12 ton dinos would sink, and little marmosets and other little mamals would float a bit longer.  Also, all reptiles never stop growing throughout their lives, am i right? so, when there was the extra layer of water in the atmosphere, everything could live longer. so, the little reptiles we have today would have grown to enourmous sizes, right?

no, you wouldnt think that..because its not true.
the size of an animal has absolutely nothing to do with if it floats or sinks..all newly-dead animals float at first..
if you throw a mouse into a pond, it will float and swim..
if you throw an elephant into a (deep) pond, it will also float and swim..dead whales float, they get washed up on beaches all the time.
"extra layer of water"?
huh?
what is an extra layer of water in the atmosphere?
and why would it cause reptiles to live longer?
there was never anything in the air that made animals live longer..
you just made all that up..cant do that.

Quote[/b] ]
many freshwater fish can handle brackish and saltwater. also, whos to say noah didn't have built in ponds on the ark?
back to extinct fish:
I believe most of the fish went down into the depths to escape the turrents near the surface... and that is why the fossils usually found lower than most other creatures. also, thos worm like things people say we started out as? hagfish and other "worm like" fish live way in the depths in the ocean, down many miles.
have you ever sprayed dragonflys with the water form your hose? they can barely withstand the sprinkle, and fall to the ground. they would be some of the first to die too

and you cant make up things that Noah *might* have had on the ark! (ponds) you cant add stuff to the Bible that isnt there and use it as evidence. you might as well say there were martians on the ark, just because you like to think there were! ..if you are going to use the Bible as fact, you cant put words in God's mouth.

You didnt explain how ALL fresh water fish survived..
yes maybe *some* fresh water fish can survive salt water..but a VERY small percentage..
there are thousands of species of fresh water fish alive today that can NOT survive salt water for an hour, much less the whole year of the flood..
Take some angelfish and tetras and dump them in the Atlantic..they will be dead in minutes..
And just suppose Noah DID have "ponds" on the Ark..how did all the fish get there? all the animals walked..thats a fact according to the Bible..they came there on their own, no one went out and got them all..(thats in the Bible remember)
are you suggesting Angelfish walked to the Ark?
and remember, you cant make stuff up..


and about the insects, the question to be answered is "why do insect fossils appear in layers far *below* fossils of dinosaurs and birds"
somehow the insects have to die first..before flying dinosaurs and birds.
SF said the insects dies before birds because of raindrops,
and flying dinosaurs dies before birds because of wind..leaving the birds somehow immune to both wind and rain..
(BTW, there were MANY flying dinosaurs and flying reptiles that were the same size, and smaller, than birds..and all those small flying dinosaurs are STILL in the layers FAR below the birds..)
I need to know how the flood theory explains 3 distinct fossil laters:
1.  flying insects are in the lower layers, where there are NO flying dinosaurs or birds,

2. above those ,there are layers that contain BOTH flying insects and flying dinosaurs..but NO birds at all..

3.and then, the higest layers..that contains both Birds and flying insects..but no flying dinosaurs at all..

how does the flood explain that?

Quote[/b] ]asia, europe and australlia were connected at one time... how do you know the roos didn't migrate down to warmer australlia?

you are mixing "science time" and "bible time"..cant do that.
you have to pick one or the other..
if you believe the Bible is absolute 100% fact, and if you believe Noah's flood is fact, you cant ALSO use Plate tectonic theory that says the plates moved apart 200 million years ago!
The bible says Noah's flood was only 4,000 years ago, and most creationists accept that number.( -see this link for the Biblical evidence of how long ago the flood was
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3563.asp)
4,000 years isnt enough time for Pangea to break up and all the continents move into their current positions.
I need to know how the BIBLE, and the flood theory, explains how kangaroos got TO the ark from Australia, and also how they got back to ONLY australia after the flood..
Continental drift dosent factor into Bible time at all.
With the factual bible, you only have 4,000 years to get everything where it is today.

Quote[/b] ]that doesn't make sence... you are saying they are found at the top of mount everest, then you are saying they are not, and found only lower... also, the creatures could ahve been caught in large glaciers and froze... ice floats, right?

it makes perfect sense..
The Crinoids were buried in the lowest, deepest layers of the ocean..if Noah's flood is true, they would be among the first buried, along with the trilobytes..in the deepest fossil layers known.
Today those same crinoids are up on top of mount everest, and on the tops of mountains all over the world..the question is, how did they move from the ocean floor to the top of the mountains?
its undeniable that they did..they are really there.
how does the flood account for this?

sorry..but you didnt explain anything.

p.s. Science has no problems with any of these questions at all! they are all easily explained..
I want to know how "Bible time" and Bible stories, which are supposed to be FACT..also explain these same issues..

thanks,
Scot

 

[jimscott]

You can take a black molly out of a freshwater tank and through it into a saltwater tank - and survive. Doesn't work with a feeder goldfish, though. They go belly up after awhile.

 

[trashcan]

Mollies are brackish water fish, intermediate between salt water and freshwater (from what I understand).

 

[Spectabilis73]

Quote[/b] ]"extra layer of water"?
huh?
what is an extra layer of water in the atmosphere?
and why would it cause reptiles to live longer?
there was never anything in the air that made animals live longer..
you just made all that up..cant do that.

I did'nt make that up. it is a theory. the theory is, In biblical times there was a large layer of water in the atmosphere. this blocked harmful rays form the sun, and that is why it is thought people lived for over 500 years back then. all the flood water came from this "moisture layer" in the atmosphere. when it was all 'deposited' into the ocean, everything was exposed to the harmful rays of the sun, and that is why the average lifespan of all life was cut so short for . (noah lived to be 950 years of age) I don't really ahve any quotes or links about this, but I'm sure others ahve heard this theory

 i dont think anyone has really proved that this "water layer" existed though, but it makes sence to me....

-spec

 

[scottychaos]

Wow!
thats a new one for me!
"Water vapor canopy"..I just looked it up..
its amazing the lengths people will go to!

its physically impossible..goes against all laws of physics and nature..

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/canopy.htm

http://www.fsteiger.com/canopy.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/canopy.html

and..if it did exist, it would basically be a very thick, wet, atmosphere..so thick that it would plunge the surface of the earth into utter darkness....it would block out all sunlight..
no life could survive..
so if it did exist, life couldnt exist..
and thats not even considering the fact that its impossible for water to do that anyway..
2 reasons why its totally impossible!
1. if it did exist, life could not exist.
2. it couldnt exist.

also, if it did exist, it would have no effect on life span..
People and animals grow old and die due to oxidation..
cellular reactions to oxygen..oxygen is already on the earth..it doesent come from space.
less radiation from space would not effect this process.
sorry..scratch that one.
there is no way...

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH311.html

all my questions remain unanswered..

Scot

 

[Spectabilis73]

read those webpages... does make sence though....

but with god all things are possible

maybe snowy falcon can answer your questions

 

[BigCarnivourKid]

The coral could have survived the flood as planulae.  This is the free swimming stage where they look for a suitable place to settle.  Life cycle of coral

Once the waters receeded they would have been able to settle on exposed (not covered in mud or silt) rock or other hard sufaces and start rebuilding reefs.

BCK

 

[Darcie]

Um, can you inclued Egnostic(sp?)