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Survey on Member Religious Preferences

Survey on Member Religious Preferences - Choose what best describes your beliefs

  • Far East religions i.e. Taoism, Hinduism, Confuciousism, Buddhism, etc.

    Votes: 1 3.8%
  • Islamic religions

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Jewish religions i.e. Messianical Jew, Yiddish, Orthodox etc.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Christian religions organized before 1800 A.D.

    Votes: 1 3.8%
  • Christian religions organized after 1800 A.D.

    Votes: 7 26.9%
  • Pagan

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Atheist

    Votes: 5 19.2%
  • Different religion not based on a belief of traditional God(s).

    Votes: 1 3.8%
  • I draw my beliefs from one or more religious traditions to make it my own.

    Votes: 5 19.2%
  • Don't affiliate with a religion or have any interest.

    Votes: 6 23.1%

  • Total voters
    26
  • #101
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]May 1829 -- Joseph Smith receives from James, Peter, and John and John the Baptist the authority for the Aaronic Priesthood and Melchizedek Priesthood. (True visitations from these same men from the New Testament. I testify that these things are true! Smith was visited by those great men!)
First place, the none of these people have the authority to ordain Smith in the ancient priesthood. Secondly, priesthood was inherited, so Aaronic Priesthood would only be received by the descendants of Aaron.
Finally, if Peter and John’s accounts matched Matthew and Luke’s accounts, how can they support someone who contradicts Matthew and Luke?

You say that the Mormons who practice polygamy have broken off from the LDS but still call themselves Mormons. Isn’t that the same as Mormons calling themselves Christians, except on a much smaller issue?

WPG, then can we really do anything to Saddam Hussein, if he wasn't wrong and we weren't right? He did what he beleived was right...

Peter
 
  • #102
Odysseus, here's another one. The Bible expressly forbids and marriages other than one man and one woman. Smith obiously made up any parts of the Book of Mormon that allow polygamy...
In II Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is given by the inspiration of God". How can God inspire two mismatched accounts of the same events?
 
  • #103
[b said:
Quote[/b] (rubrarubra @ April 01 2004,3:46)]
WPG, then can we really do anything to Saddam Hussein, if he wasn't wrong and we weren't right?  He did what he beleived was right...

Peter
Murder is morally wrong. My theory really applies to Religions, not affairs. If a religion kills b/c they thought it was right then i would say to myself that is wrong, but a lot of African religions did kill b/c they thought it was right, to me that is just slaughter. To Saddam he thought it was right, but murder is never right. it's wrong.
 
  • #104
WPG,

You say murder is morally wrong. According to who? If murder is absolutely morally wrong no matter what religion or people, then there is obviously at least some moral standard that applies to all, no matter what their beliefs are. So where does this moral standard come from? who decides what it is? Is stealing wrong? Is adultery? Where do you draw the line between beliefs and a moral absolute?
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  • #105
i didn't say murder was morally wrong for all. i say to me it is morally wrong. but when it comes to murder i guess that's where justice comes in.
 
  • #106
LOL! noah, you don't need the Bible to tell you murder is wrong. It stems from a rational desire for self-preservation.

Capslock
 
  • #107
Capslock,

If my main goal was self preservation, wouldn't it be in my best interest to kill anyone who gets in my way or might endanger me or my interests in some way?
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You can't back up what most people consider moral absolutes unless you admit that there is a higher being that has set standards that apply to the whole universe.
 
  • #108
noah,

I can assure you that we have laws against murder because of the rationality of such a policy and not because of divine mandate. If you go around killing people who "get in your way" you'll find you've made a very bad choice for self-preservation. I think everyone here (hopefully) would agree that the best way to ensure our safety, and protect our freedom, is to make murder a very serious crime. It doesn't take a higher being to make that clear!

These are rational consensuses, not absolutes. For example, murderers don't consider it wrong. And many people, in the middle east, for example, consider killing of even civilian innocents acceptable forms of warfare.

Pretty much every law in the US has a rational basis. People are convinced of the merits of the laws and policies because of their rational basis. Otherwise, we'd go around banning shrimp because it's Biblically prohibited. Or divorce.

Capslock
 
  • #109
i agree w/ capslock. but some murderers do see murder as wrong but they say they can't help it.
 
  • #110
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]1. What is the most logical foolproof explanation for the origin of the Book of Mormon?

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John also were imperfect, but the four gospels agree perfectly.

The other option is that Satan appeared to Smith as an angel and gave him false revelations, and Smith, beleiving this, wrote up the Book of Mormon.  As I said earlier, Mohammed also supposedly received revelations from an angel of God.

Both of these are logical and foolproof options.

Peter,  there are many people who would argue your point, "the four Gospels agree perfectly"  they do agree, but not perfectly.  I know some people who use contradictions from the gospels to prove their belief that Christ wasn't the God, that you and I both believe Him to be.  

I must admit, that I can't see how your "foolproof" options are truly foolproof!  You can't make the claim that Satan appeared to Joseph Smith and had him write the Book of Mormon as foolproof!  Plus, the argument that Mohammed claimed to have seen an Angel doesn't discount the Book of Mormon.  I have no reason to doubt that Mohammed saw an Angel.  The true message of the Qu'ran is one of peace and one very similar to the Law of Moses.  I don't have any problems with the Muslim religion.  It in its true form is a peaceful and certainly "worthy of respect" religion.  

Peter, your arguments are highly biased and you offer no proof that Satan had anything to do with the Book of Mormon.  The character of Satan whom I know, would NEVER dictate such a positive verse about Christ to a man:

26  And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 25:26)

Seriously, Peter.  Satan doesn't promote faith in Christ!  He doesn't bring forth what we would call "good" fruit!  The Bible you and I BOTH read, study, and believe...says:

15  ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16  Ye shall know them by their fruits.  Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

(New Testament | Matthew 7:15 - 18)

Please look at the fruits of my church.  Look at the fruits of the words contained in the Book of Mormon.  Do not condemn it because it is similar to the Bible, but rejoice that the word of God is found on both continents!  The East and the West should need to hear of Jesus Christ!  Rejoice in the glory of that which is God, and His divine plan that there should be found HIS word in every clime!  That there should be One Shepherd and One Fold!

16  And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

(New Testament | John 10:16)

I testify to you, Peter, that I KNOW that the people of the Book of Mormon were among those other sheep.  They literally HEARD the voice of Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah.  I do not know of how many other cultures who were other sheep and ALSO were visited by Christ the King of Kings.  I know of God.  I know that Christ lives.  I know that He is my Redeemer and the Redeemer of every peoples of this world.  East and West.  North and South.  I know that someday we will be of One fold and One Shepherd.  I know this because I have asked God in prayer, and He has revealed His plan unto me.  This I testify in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.  

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  • #112
Odysseus, it is true that the options I presented aren’t foolproof, but they are at least as beleivable as yours. Of course I have no proof that Satan appeared to Smith, but the evidence is at least as great as that for the revelations having been of God. You say you know the character of Satan. Well, he does his best to draw people away from God and the truth. The easiest way to do this is to produce an almost true version, to confuse people. In the garden of Even, Satan told Eve something that sounded truthful, and succeded in drawing all of mankind away from God. II Corinthians 11:14 says “Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light”. This could easily have happened with Smith. The reason I brought up Mohammed, is that after getting revelations, he started a religion that included many seemingly good things. Among other things, it is the duty of a Muslim to put any family member who converts to Christianity to death. Some of the chapters allow polygamy. See Psalms 19:7 – “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.” How can the Book of Mormon be the law of the Lord, if it is imperfect? I don’t consider half-truth to be a good fruit.
I’d like to see examples of inconsistencies between the Gospels. Also saying “I know” or “I testify” doesn’t prove a thing. Now please be so kind as to answer my question:
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You say that the Mormons who practice polygamy have broken off from the LDS but still call themselves Mormons. Isn’t that the same as Mormons calling themselves Christians, except on a much smaller issue?

Peter
 
  • #113
Sure I'll answer your question.
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One, my Church was not a break off of any other Church. Some of your arguments are of that precisely! We are different from any other Christian church, and we DID NOT originate as a break-off of any other church as those polygamists who DID IN FACT break off of our church.

Two, those who practiced polygamy were EXCOMMUNICATED from our church for practicing something that was not of our Church. My church the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was NEVER excommunicated from the Christian world as a whole.

So, you can see that they are very different things. The only similar aspect is that we have different beliefs. (You and I) And the Polygamists who keep the name "Mormons" have very different beliefs from my Church.
 
  • #114
[b said:
Quote[/b] (rubrarubra @ April 01 2004,2:32)]See Psalms 19:7 – “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.”  How can the Book of Mormon be the law of the Lord, if it is imperfect?   I don’t consider half-truth to be a good fruit.

First, I never called the Book of Mormon "the Law of the Lord."  I have in several posts referred to it as a record containing the testimonies of many men.  Their testimonies were of Jesus Christ.  The Book of Mormon has never been referred by me as "the Law of the Lord."  So, I offer no argument there.  The Book of Mormon is not the Law of the Lord.  
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Have you ever read the whole Book of Mormon before?
 
  • #115
there is a gospel of peter and mary that is not in the Bible. it's very interesting to read the stuff that was left out of the BIble. Hey one of my friends said that Mormons believe Jesus was married is that true? He's Mormon himself.
 
  • #116
Odysseus, the reason the Church of Christ and LDS was not excommunicated from the Christian church is that the Christian Church in general does not excommunicate people. The catholic church took up the practice early on, and some branches of the Church might, but there is not overall system of authority that could do this. In any case, Mormons are considered as more of cult than not a branch of the Church. I think this is because the CCLDS considers it the original church, and it doesn't teach the same things as the Christian church.

I don't think Psalm 9:17 reffers specifically to the "law" as in the Ten Commandments or other regulations. I think the whole Bible in general is referred to by this verse.

From Webster's dictionary - "The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible."

The testimonies of men in the Book of Mormon were not consistent with the testimonies in the Gospel. The councel of Nicea selected testimonies that had been verified. I beleive that God was working through the councel to bring us his true word. Besides, the councel took place relatively soon after Christ's death, compared to Smith's version, centuries later. Why would God give us an incomplete version of his word for two millenia?

Peter
 
  • #117
The Council of Nicea was convened in AD 325 by Emperor Constantine. So it was also centuries after Christ's death.

Capslock
 
  • #118
Yes the Mormons do believe Jesus was married and he had no 'virgin birth'.Mormons like the Jehovah's witnesses belive that jesus was a created being and was simply a spirit before he came to earth.
Mormons also believe that the universe is inhabited with many gods who produce spirit children and that 'good mormons' become gods.
The other differences of mormons to Christinaity is that one earns salvation through good works when Romans 3 23 says that salvation is a free gift.
Mormons also belive one can be saved in the next life when the bible says man is set to die once and face judgement!

There are many more differences, but it is interesting to note that the book of Mormon contains text amounting to 25,000 words identical to the King James Bible passages.. Now if Joseph Smith was translating from an ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics..! Some revelation!
 
  • #119
Peter, I have no real reply for you because Capslock summed up my argument rather well.  
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 Plus, not sure what word your Webster's definition was for, but it was a great definition for whatever word it was...I guess.  
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Mike, and everyone.  I am a "Mormon" therefore I am the most qualified here to make the claims Mike has just made.  Mike you meant well and quoted some true points, but apparently you've read the info coming from a negative source.  And as with ALL negative speakers of others, the truth has been twisted and misrepresented.  So here is my take which is also the take of the "Mormons".  
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 read on...
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mike King @ April 01 2004,4:34)]Yes the Mormons do believe Jesus was married...

We don't know for fact whether He was married or not.  NO ONE DOES!  
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 In the New Testament KJV I know of at least 6 places where Christ was called Rabbi or Rabboni.  It is true that to be a "Rabbi" in the Jewish traditions one must have a wife.  Therefore we can speculate.  BUT!!  "Rabbi" could also be translated as to have been simply saying "master".  Therefore, we could argue both ends, but we have no proof to say one or the other.  
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 WPG and Mike, you may have met someone in my church who leans on believing that Christ had a wife.  But, it is HONESTLY not a doctrine of our church.  It is simply interesting to speculate.  

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]and he had no 'virgin birth'.Mormons like the Jehovah's witnesses belive that jesus was a created being and was simply a spirit before he came to earth.
Correction.  We DO believe that Mary was a Virgin when Christ was born.  I don't know anyone in the church who differs with that opinion.  It IS our doctrine that she was a virgin.  If you meet someone of my church who says different.  Tell him he is wrong.  You have my permission...
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 j/k  

On the matter of Christ being a Spirit before he was born, that is true.  He wasn't EQUAL with us, but He was one of the first Spirit born to The Father.  When Christ came down to earth He condescended and took on for the first time a physical body.  When Christ resurrected He received a physical but perfect, immortal body.  

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Mormons also believe that the universe is inhabited with many gods who produce spirit children and that 'good mormons' become gods.
Our doctrine is that Christ is a God.  He IS a GOD!  He was the "Word" with the Father and Christ Himself IS the God of this world and Created the World.  That is why Christ as a Spirit was much higher than we were.  We believe that the ultimate Glory for God is that we become like Him.  He is a God, and will always remain OUR God and we will always bring Glory to Him.  But, we can follow Christ's example as He has admonished and be Perfected in Him.  Following Christ and becoming like Him is our goal.   Christ and Heavenly Father are both Gods.  So, like Mike said.  We believe in multiple Gods.  But those two are the only Gods we worship.    
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The other differences of mormons to Christinaity is that one earns salvation through good works when Romans 3 23 says that salvation is a free gift.
Our doctrine is that there are TWO main obstacles Christ overcame for us.  The PHYSICAL death and the SPIRITUAL death.  When Christ arose from the dead and was resurrected He overcame PHYSICAL DEATH.  Because of His grace and great Sacrifice EVERYONE will be resurrected.  Therefore "saved" from bands of death.  THIS RESURRECTION IS A FREE GIFT TO ANYONE! Now, many people will be terrible murderers and sinners, but thanks to the GRACE of God they will also be spared from Death, and will be resurrected. However, Christ also sacrificed in the Garden of Gethsamene.  There he sacrificed for all of our SINS.  In order to be cleansed from our sins we need to have Faith in Christ and repent from our sins. That is where GOOD WORKS comes in.  You can't earn a place in the Kingdom of God without good works.  You will resurrect by the grace of God, but depending on how well you follow Christ and perform good works will DECIDE whether you spend eternity with God or not.  

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Mormons also belive one can be saved in the next life when the bible says man is set to die once and face judgement!
Our Doctrine is that after this life there is a waiting period before judgment day.  We all will be judged by Christ.  But, some of us are still COMING to the Earth and others are still here.  While many people have already died.  Those are spending their time in what is called by scripture as either "Paradise" or "Spirit Prison."  We do believe that there are MANY people who have died young, or even without the CHANCE to even HEAR about Jesus Christ.  Those people get an opportunity to hear about Him and accept Him as their Savior.  Read New Testament 1 Peter 3:19-20 and 1 Peter 4:6.  These scriptures talk about preaching to those after this life, but are very vague and lack further explanation.  I can THANK my Heavenly Father for Prophets today, because through them we have learned more about those passages!  
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]There are many more differences, but it is interesting to note that the book of Mormon contains text amounting to  25,000 words identical to the King James Bible passages.. Now if Joseph Smith was translating from an ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics..! Some revelation!

Here's a statement from Moroni, one of the record keepers from the Book of Mormon.  He wrote this roughly around 400-421 A.D. :

32  And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.
33  And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

(Book of Mormon | Mormon 9:32 - 33)

You need to remember that when Joseph Smith was dictating the translation of the Book of Mormon to the person who at the time was writing for him, he was doing it at a very fast pace and was translating by simply reading it out loud.  Joseph had no training in this language of the peoples of the Book or Mormon.  So, while he was translating, like ANY person translating from a different language he wasn't doing it literally.  i.e. If someone translated the English idiom, "Spill the Beans!"  They would confuse the idea behind the phrase if they translated LITERALLY.  A translator would have to take the idea of "Tell us what you know!" and translate that IDEA in words similar.  Joseph was placing AN IDEA from their ancient language into words familiar in the English language.  Since, Joseph Smith's vocabulary represented what he read the most, the KJV of the Bible, it is no mystery that he used references and words from the Bible to express the IDEA of these ancient peoples.  


Hope that helps!  

Aaron King (Odysseus)
 
  • #120
325 A.D. dates it less than three centuries after the Death of Christ. That is still about a sixth of the time it took Mormons. Besides by that time people had probably not yet forgotten their family stories about having seen Christ, and the Church was still relatively new.

Peter
 
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