Survey on Member Religious Preferences

[God's garden]

It's quite simple to think of really. You are one person but you may also be a father, a son, a husband, and employee. The trinity is for our benifit but still one God. I don't believe we should place God in a box of our limited understanding. If you look at Genesis 1:26 you'll see the Trinity was already in existance.

 

[Wesley]

Very well put. God should be considered unlimited. I mean, if you created everything, then how could you be limited to something.

 

[Odysseus]

Hey guys,

I don't argue that God was unlimited in His power at all!  

 I believe Him to have more power and understanding than I could ever hope to imagine.  I just believe in one young man's witness of Jesus Christ and God the Father.  That young man was Joseph Smith in 1820, he testified that he saw them as two seperate beings.  Joseph Smith was only 14 at the time he testified of that and had no reason to lie about his witness.  To claim what he claimed when it was directly against the major consensus at the time, why would he do that?  He had nothing to gain.  He received much persecution for that, and I see absolutely no reason that he would act to provoke such persecution.  I believe him to be an honest boy, who saw God and learned of himself that God and Jesus Christ were two seperate beings.  

The belief that Jesus Christ and God, the Eternal Father are two seperate God's doesn't imply ANY limitations to God's power.  

Besides what would you make of Stephen's account while he was being stoned to death?  King James Version :

Quote[/b] ]54  ¶ When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57  Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58  And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

(New Testament | Acts 7:54 - 59)

I believe in Stephen's words and the words of Joseph Smith.  Christ is God, and does stand Perfect and in full glory on the right hand of God, the Eternal Father.  Both are the Gods of this Earth, and members of the Godhead along with the Holy Ghost, the third God.  Those three God's make up the Godhead spoken of in the Old and New Testaments of the Bible.  

Does that make sense?  Any questions please ask here or PM me.  

   

 

[zappafan]

(www.dtl.org) This Christian website has MUCH information. Look up Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., there on the website. "But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light". Ephesians 5:13 NKJV

 

[Mike King]

Aaron,
The thing is one cannot go against scripture, Ephesions Ch 4 V5 one Lord, one faith, one Baptism V6 ONE GOD, ...
Collosians 1 V19 For in him (Jesus) the Fullness of God was pleased to dwell... That literally means that God dwelt in Christ!

There is a better analogy for Trinity or Godhead; in physics, water can exist in its 3 physical states at the same time (triple point) Ice, water and vapour.

 

[Odysseus]

Quote[/b] (Mike King @ April 06 2004,6:33)]Aaron,
  The thing is one cannot go against scripture, Ephesions Ch 4 V5 one Lord, one faith, one Baptism V6 ONE GOD, ...
Collosians 1 V19 For in him (Jesus) the Fullness of God was pleased to dwell... That literally means that God dwelt in Christ!

There is a better analogy for Trinity or Godhead; in physics, water can exist in its 3 physical states at the same time (triple point) Ice, water and vapour.

Mike,

I don't doubt that there are many ideas and analogies which can prove that one thing can ALSO be three.  

 I find no problem with the analogies, but I am not convinced that God, the Eternal Father and Jesus, the Christ are one being by them either.  

Using your same scripture you quoted:

Quote[/b] ]
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

[ New Testament -- Ephesians 4:4-6 ]  

In the following verse from the text you quoted, it makes reference to "One God and Father of all".  Using the statement you made, that we can't go against scripture, I can suppose you believe in ALL the words of the Bible.  Here, even in the words you quoted are contradictions to your belief.  That is, IF you read verse 6 along with verse 5.

Quote[/b] ]6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Why after Paul mentioned "One Lord" would he need to refer to "One God and Father" if they are discussing the same person?  Is he repeating himself? Perhaps, just describing the other facets of "The Lord"?  Could be, but why then didn't he just say "One Lord, who is God and Father of all" ?  

Why would he be vague here, when his whole statement was intended to clear up things for the Ephesians?  

Unless, of course, he WAS being clear and was referring to two seperate entities.  ONE <span style='color:green'>A Lord God</span> and TWO  <span style='color:green'>A God Father of All.</span>  Personally, I believe he was being clear, and I think it IS clear that he went to the effort of mentioning both at different times, because he was talking about two different entities.  1.  Jesus Christ the Lord and God of All.  2.  God, the Eternal Father, Father of all including Christ.

On another note of that same verse:  

Quote[/b] ]6 ...who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

"And in you all."  This statement was made by Paul.  That God was "in" us all.  With your references to Colossians speaking of God dwelling literally in Christ.  Would you not agree that in referencing to Ephesians 4:6 that God literally dwells in us?  Are we then God too?   

Respectfully, Mike, if you are to assume the saying was literal in Colossians or others already used,  then you would have to assume all similar references from the Bible are literal. We too would be included in the Trinity and both of us know, that we are not.  

To end, I suppose you nor I have never seen the face of God.  Not yet at least.  Nor would we ever claim to our deaths that we have in fact seen the face of God.  However, Joseph Smith saw the faces of God, the Eternal Father and Jesus Christ, and proclaimed it even unto his death.  What he saw as a young man was two seperate beings.  I believe in his personal witness.  Sorry, for doing so, but I firmly believe in his testimony.  

Hope this is received well.  I certainly meant well.  I just want to shed another perspective on what scriptures which have been consistently used to satisfy the belief of a Trinity.

 

[zappafan]

I'll put it simply. Jesus ,Himself, says that there will be false Christs in the end times, and that He would return once-and-for-all on one day. He said watch out for people saying "look, He's over there". He said that people will not be able to mistake His return. I personally(Biblicallly) don't see Him returning until it has been decided by the Father, even to stop and talk with Joseph Smith. He said his disciples were to be the ones to go out into the world and make more disciples. In other words, He has said all there needs to be said, and now it's up to we "disciples" to proclaim what He "has said". Do you see the finality of this command? In addition, where are the other witnesses of his appearing to Joseph Smith and do their testimonies agree? For there must be other testimonies and they must agree to be truth. Does the book of Mormon contradict Old Testament and New Testament Doctrines? "Test all things; hold fast what is good". 1 Thessalonians 5:10 NKJV

 

[Odysseus]

Hey Zappafan,
When Joseph Smith saw Jesus Christ in 1820 he was only a 14 year old boy and he was alone.  So there aren't any witnesses to that account.  But later on there were witnesses to the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated, and witnesses to having seen Christ, and witnesses to having seen Angels and etc.  

I know you think that Christ coming to Joseph Smith would contradict His Second Coming.  However, it was NOT His second coming in ALL His Glory.  It was simply a visit to one young boy. What you said here:

Quote[/b] ]e said that people will not  be able to mistake His return. I  personally(Biblicallly) don't see Him returning until it has been decided by the Father, even to stop and  talk with Joseph Smith.

If you believe that Christ would NOT return to the Earth EXCEPT for the SECOND COMING, how do you explain his visiting Paul the Apostle after He had already told the Apostles He would not return until the end?
<span style='color:green'>King James Version | New Testament Acts 9:3-7, 17</span>

Quote[/b] ]
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, awhat wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

The men with Saul couldn't see Christ but heard a voice.  Saul however SAW Christ as was alluded to by Ananias later in his blessing of Saul.  

Quote[/b] ]17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath csent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

If you can't accept that Christ would return to the Earth for only one man than you can't accept Saul as a Chosen vessel.  For, Christ appeared unto Saul who has been persecting Him, and chose Paul to be an Apostle and called Paul to do a great missionary work.

If you accept Paul, you'd have to accept the possibility of Joseph Smith.  Whether or not you believe Smith was lying, that is for you to decide.  As for me, I know him to be an honest man.

 

[Odysseus]

If any of you would like to read Joseph Smith's account of his visit with Christ and God the Eternal Father, or would like to now how he found the Book of Mormon.  Here is a link that will take you to his account of it all.

Joseph Smith History written by himself

You don't have to believe what he says, but it would be nice if you would read what he says about his experience rather than what others say negatively.  This is the best source about what I believe happened with Josepn Smith.  

Thanks to those who read it.  

And anyone who only wants to read about his account of seeing God and Jesus Christ read 8 - 20 that isn't much more than 5 minutes reading.

 

[Mike King]

Hi Aaron,
I have an idea; please give me your email address and I will send you teaching notes on the Trinity by scanned docoments

 

[zappafan]

Quite simply put, any further "revelation" from Christ (this includes appearances, utterances, etc., are found in the Holy scriptures. Paul had many witnesses with him when God spoke. They heard a voice but saw no one(Acts 9:7). He also had Ananias, who was sceptical of Paul(Acts 10-17). The book of Mormon has never been accepted, even now, as Holy Scriptures. The Bible as we know, it apart from the book of Mormon, has been "tested" by the word of God itself and found to be authoratitive. This is called the canon. The books of the Bible are included in the canon. The canon are all of the books of the bible and no more . The canon means "these books" are the very words of God.

 

[Odysseus]

Hey Zappafan,

I have replied to several posts in the past with distinct details and revealed alot about my Church.  I have done it using scriptural texts from the Bible and using my own testimony.  After all that, nothing changed.  I just don't have the interest to bring up more information about my church unless people are going to hear me.  I could very well spend an hour typing up instances that parallel your mention of Paul having many people with him when he saw Christ.  There are many instances in the early days of the Church where other people witnessed Christ.  But, honestly, you and I both know that no matter what references and story I spend my time writing up on here no one is going to respect my church.  

I have heard everyone's opinion on here about my church and I felt that I did a good job dealing with the opposing views and calmly responded and explained the true beliefs of my church.  But, nonetheless, the opinions have not changed.  And I don't want to waste my time if nobody is open minded about my church.

If you legitimately want to hear about my church and want to know about instances where there are more witnesses than just Joseph Smith, than go to this website :  http://www.ldsces.org/inst_ma....ere.pdf the PDF file is of a great book about the Church History. It is very clear, well written, and strong with brevity.

At least this way you can find everything out on your own and maybe you'll understand my way of thinking.  Because learning about it on your own, is exactly what I did.  

Good Luck.

 

[Mike King]

Hi Aaron,
Its just plain heresy, the Bible says there is one God and the Mormon church says there are 2 or more..! Personally I take the Bible as the last word, not the book of Mormon!

 

[Odysseus]

Mike...Mike...Mike  

Respectfully, I have plead the case that Christ is one seperate being and God, the Eternal Father is another seperate being BY USING ONLY the King James Version of the Bible!  I have not used Book of Mormon scripture to argue my case.  So what are you alluding to in your last statement?  

 Come on, you know that I have been only using versus from the Bible.  Why did you say what you just said?    

 

[rubrarubra]

Quote[/b] ]Come on, you know that I have been only using versus from the Bible. Why did you say what you just said?

Hey Aaron,
using scripture references does not necessarily make you right. Satan tempted Jesus in Matthew 4 using scripture references. Here is my argument on the subject.

John 1:10 - "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."

Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Job 33:4 - "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life."

These three verses refer to different parts of the trinity having made us.
Peter
This verse refers to Jesus. Now

 

[Capslock]

Odysseus, those of us who aren't locked into a rigid doctrine appreciate the position you're coming from. Everyone has their own beliefs, and many different Christian sects believe the Bible justifies their beliefs. It isn't just Mormons. It's Catholic vs. Protestant and so on, ad infinitum. In fact, it's quite possible that no two individuals have the same understanding accross the board of what the Bible says.

Yes, they are picking on you, and no, you don't have to continue to defend yourself. You aren't going to convince these guys that Mormons have it right. However, you've given the rest of us a glimpse into your church that we appreciate, both through the information in your posts and the way in which you've given it.

Capslock

 

[God's garden]

OK, God oviously had a good reason for giving us his word and we have two sides to a debate lets keep it friendly all the way around in the process of this debate. I don't have much to say about the trinity, but I do question Joseph Smith's status as a prophet. Especially to claim to have seen the face of God the scriptures dealing with this is EX33:11-23, Jn 1:18,Jn6:46 1TIM1:17, 1Tim6:16, 1Jn 4:12 Deut 18:20-22. Also the mark of a false prophet is a single prophesy turns out false. So what of Mr. Smith's claims in the doctrine of covanants 84:1-5 "A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.

"Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.

"Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

"Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.

"For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house."

On August 2, 1833, Joseph made the claim, "Surely Zion is the city of our God, and surely Zion cannot fall, neither be moved out of her place, for God is there, and the hand of the Lord is there;"

Joseph Smith was specific about the location of Zion in December of 1833, "Zion shall not be moved out of her place, notwithstanding her children are scattered....And, behold, there is none other place appointed than that which I have appointed; neither shall there be any other place appointed than that which I have appointed, for the work of the gathering of my saints."

It was understood by Mormon authorities that the temple would be reared in Independence, Missouri, within the generation that Joseph was living. Apostle Orson Pratt told the General Conference in 1870, "...God promised in the year 1832 that we should, before the generation then living had passed away, return and build up the city of Zion in Jackson County; that we should return and build up the temple of the Most High where we formerly laid the corner stone....We believe in these promises as much as we believe in any promise ever uttered by Jehovah. The Latter-day Saints just as much expect to receive a fulfillment of that promise during the generation that was in existence in 1832 as they expect that the sun will rise and set tomorrow. Why? Because God cannot lie. He will fulfil all his promises. He has spoken, it must come to pass. This is our faith."

For many years, Mormon Church authorities proclaimed their faith in this prophecy. In 1900, President Lorenzo Snow stated, "There are many here now under the sound of my voice, probably a majority, who will live to go back to Jackson County and assist in building that temple."

As late as 1935, Joseph Fielding Smith, who would become president of the church proclaimed, "I firmly believe that there will be some of that generation who were living when this revelation was given who shall be living when this temple is reared....I have full confidence in the word of the Lord and that it shall not fail."

(1) Smith's prophecy was proclaimed as a revelation of Jesus Christ and "the word of the Lord."

(2) A generation, according to Webster's Dictionary, is "A single stage or degree in the succession of natural descent...(about 30 years)." The Bible recognizes between 35 to 40 years according to the life-span of Job (Job 42:16). The Book of Mormon counts the time as 110 years (4 Nephi 1:18). In any event, it has now been 165 years since the prophecy was given by Joseph Smith. Every single original player is now dead. It is safe to assume that Smith's generation has passed away.

(3) No Mormon city has ever been established in Missouri.

(4) The temple lot in Jackson County is not owned by the Utah Mormon Church. No temple has ever been built on that site.

(5) As Joseph Smith was declaring his prophecy in Kirtland, Ohio, in August 1833, he was unaware of the problems in Missouri. "Zion" had already been "moved out of her place." Two weeks prior to his revelation, the LDS newspaper presses had been destroyed, and leading Mormon officials had been tarred and feathered and then run out of town.

(6) The only "cloud" to rest on the temple lot was the cloud of dust that was raised when the entire Mormon Church was eventually chased out of the state and had to flee to Utah.

In response to those who profess that "Zion" was "reestablished" in Salt Lake City, they should read again the words of Joseph, "...behold, there is none other place appointed than that which I have appointed; neither shall there be any other place appointed. " So much for Salt Lake City, Utah!

Joseph's prophecy was entirely false. It is ironic that Joseph Smith's own words would serve to convict him. In an article he published in The Evening and Morning Star, July 1833, p. 1, Joseph stated, "The only way to ascertain a true prophet is to compare his prophecies with the ancient Word of God, and see if they agree, and if they do and come to pass, then certainly he is a true prophet....When, therefore any man, no matter who, or how high his standing may be, utters, or publishes, anything that afterwards proves to be untrue, he is a false prophet."

By Joseph Smith's own words he is proven to be a false prophet.There is also the cicil war account which I'm sure you aware of. I'll stop there, but could you explain who Oliver Granger is to me please. Thanks for you time I feel there is knowledge on both sides of this fence to be had.  

 

[God's garden]

Well you see the Doctrine of the mormons say if you'r not mormon yer out of luck, so I just want to be sure when I die of where I'm going. If Aaron has it right than the truth will manifest itself. But I take some convencing, which is why I'm non-denominational. I believe the Bible as the final athourity and not skewed church doctrine.

 

[rubrarubra]

Capslock, while agree that there are many different interpretations of scripture, there are some obious misinterpritations such as the one of Mormons on the trinity. With the three verses I posted, you can't deny the existence of the trinity. Also, Acts 17:19-21, which we were discussing a while back, obviously refers to Israel, and there is no denying that either.
Peter

 

[Mike King]

Hi Guys,
Please email me if you want a copy of the teaching notes I have from the Christain leadership and discipleship course which explains the Trinity etc from a Biblical perspective