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The federal marriage ammendent

  • Thread starter Wesley
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  • #61
humans do not have to have sex to have children, that's the point i was making. we can adopt or creat a baby via in-fitro fertilization.

being gay and being an alcohaulic are NOT the same and you know that! your father CHOSE to pick up that bottle. i wasn't molested as i child, i have a masculin dad, etc. there is no external reason for me being gay other than i was born this way.

that comment about gays being a plague is completely unacceptable.

and as far as genes, many people think it isn't genes, but the levels of the two sex hormones that the fetus is exposed to.
 
  • #62
Clint has a point.... some people are just born homosexual. My father is a Christian, but he says that too. If gay couples want to marry.... go ahead, I agree with StarMan. Being gay has nothin to do with believing in Christianity.
 
  • #63
a gay gene? maybe maybe not but im pretty sure that the current belief is that the "hardwiring" of the brain is different between hetero- and homo sexuals. its been known for years that there is a differance between male and female brains, why wouldnt it be so for homosexuals being that the brain is where all this would originate? i highly doubt its a chemical inbalance or anything like that. i truely believe further research will show that the brain structure is different there for it is not the "fault" of the person for being homosexual any more than it is if you are born with blue eyes.

all this quoting the bibal to hold up your belief that gay marrages should be is actually unAmerican. it is not keeping church and state seperate it is forcing laws because of religion. i also firmly believe all this BS about taking "under God" out of the pledge is idiotic and i aint even Christian, or any other of those major religions.

weither its unnatural or not is irrelivent, thats not for you to decide or anyone else. in the end it will be between them and their "maker" and you have no buissiness telling two consenting adults what is right and what is wrong because some stupid book says so.

Rattler
 
  • #64
The reason Christians care about marriage, is that it was designed by God for a specific function. The husband and wife support each other and keep each other in check. Out of the union come children. The mother has the unique touch that it takes to raise children. Meanwhile, the husband is able to work to support his family. These days, children are sent to school, where the state is raising them and teaching them the way it likes, and both parents work. Often people marry for the wrong reasons, and the marriage breaks apart. The first example shows a strong unit, in which members are looking out for each other instead of themselves. Traditionally, married couples are are taxed less to enable the mother to care for the children, who become valuable members of society. The second example shows family members looking out for themselves, hence the disfunctional unit. In this case it is unfair that these people are taxed less, because they might as well be individuals. As you can see, marriage and the family have lost their value.
As for gays, they do not need the same benifits as a healthy family because they are simply pairs of men or women who are attracted to each other but they can still support themselves.
I can't stop people from entering into gay relationships, but there is no reason such relationships should be disguised as marriage, because they aren't marriage, and don't fulfill the functions of marriage.

That's all for now,
Peter
 
  • #65
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]As for gays, they do not need the same benifits as a healthy family because they are simply pairs of men or women who are attracted to each other but they can still support themselves.

they do adopt AND what about death benifits? i really dont care what christian beliefs say, my beliefs about marrage are simple:

Marrage is a bond between two ppl that love each other.

weither its between a man and a woman or a man and a man i really dont care. and the law should be blind to it as well. we are not a "CHRISTIAN state", this country is supposed to be blind twords religion as far as running it are concerned.

Rattler
 
  • #66
rubrarubra-that is absurd. a married couple without children is the same as a gay couple without children. a married couple with children is the same as a gay couple with children. gays make just as good parents as the mother and just as good workers as the father. the only difference is that straights are treated like PEOPLE and are ALLOWED to be married,and gay's are not.

"The husband and wife support each other and keep each other in check" you dont think a gay couple can do the EXACT same thing?

"The mother has the unique touch that it takes to raise children.   Meanwhile, the husband is able to work to support his family"

that is absurd. there are millions of single mothers AND fathers with children that raise them perfectly well. you dont think a pair of gay parents can raise children just as well as a straight couple AND provide income to support the family.

anything a straight couple can do, a gay couple can do just as well. they are no better than each other, just different.


what do you MEAN we don't need the same benefits? by that your saying YOU and all straight married couple are better than me and all gay couples. your sadly, sadly mistaken. are you saying we aren't GOOD ENOUGH to have benefits? are you saying we are second class?
 
  • #67
also what makes a healthy family? there are lots of man/woman families that i know that are far from healthy. also going from experiance, women do not have a "special touch" with children, some PEOPLE do some dont, man or woman has nothing to do with it. also most house holds these days both parents are working also who says a child who is adopted into a gay family will not grow up to be a productive member of society. your argument is REALLY full of holes.

Rattler
 
  • #68
couldn't agree more with rattler. you just dont seem to know what your talking about.
 
  • #69
Hi guy and gals. I'm the "friend at work" that Justin (God's garden) keeps mentioning. I've been a steady reader, but for this one I felt like posting. I 100% agree that marriage is a Christian ideology. It says so in the Bible. But marriage has become much more than that. Almost every culture in the world has marriage. Hindus, Bhuddists, African tribes... marriage is MORE political than religious in these times. As for that, gays most definately should be allowed to marry. So they can't do it in a Christian church. There's always a Justice of the Peace. There's always Central Park. All the gay people I know, or have ever known, don't even want to be married in a place they have been persecuted. They all just want to be LEGALLY recognized as married, for the benefits that have already been mentioned. Christian marriage is one thing. But legal marriage is (and should be) considered a seperate entity.
 
  • #70
Hi,

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Yes, JLAP you are correct some species do not require both genders of the species to reproduce, but since your typing this I assume you're not one of them. So that point's illrelavant
We are talking about HUMANS. If you want to involve the animal kingdom, and akin their instinct to mankind we're back to the whole murder issue. A spade is a spade.

Humans are animals just animals with certain rather unique features. We walk upright which frees our breathing from being used as the engine of fast short term propulsion and so we could develop a more complex verbal communication system and that allowed us to access larger portions of the brain which in turn evolved the brain. But we are still just another animal on this planet -- just the most advanced in terms of self awareness. It is this trait of self-awareness -- intelligence -- that we celebrate in all our "god" and "religion" myths -- including Christianity. What is love and compassion if not the awareness of empathy -- how the other guy feels. Christianity is nothing but the projection of that all too human consciousness into the imagination -- the real inspiration for the notion of the "divine". Religion is art. It is a fiction that reveals truth. To make it a literal reality is to pervert it. humans are just animals.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
I don't doubt you were born gay, in the same respect I don't doub't my father was born an alcoholic.

Yes, your father was born an alcoholic and yes he had a choice to drink or not but that comparison only applies to being gay IF one is working under the assumption that being gay -- like alcoholism -- is a disease to be avoided. To "choose" to act on one's core reality -- one's sexuality -- is not to believe the core itself was simply a matter of choice. It is not. It is too choose to be one's self rather than live a lie to please an unfair, bigoted and unjust society. Furthermore, there is absolutely no reason not to accept being gay and to freely and guiltlessly live out of that core sense of being. There are many reasons to never choose to act on that aspect of self that is an alcoholic. It is destructive to one's health. Now, of course, the anti-gay bunch is screaming AIDS at this point. Well, if AIDS is the issue determining choice,
heterosexuals need to abstain from sex yesterday as it is killing the world's heterosexuals!

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Now is their such thing as a gay gene? Absolutly not.

Genes or hormones what it is IS BIOLOGICALLY BASED and not a choice based on culture or nurture.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
First if you're implimenting evolution as a premise for doing what you want then their would be no gay people. Evolution, to my limited understanding, is the advancement of a species over time through the sucessfull adaptation of new generations. Homosexuality is a trait that negatively effects the human species and it's advancement. Secondly if homosexuality was genetic it would have dissapeared a LONG time ago (I.E.) they don't reproduce. Don't even say "well some gays do reproduce" because that would prove it's a choise.

First, a gay person choosing to have straight sex does not prove being gay is a choice; it proves that one can be gay, deny that self and pretend to be straight, pretend to be bi, be bi, be a little gay and alot straight and all the other percentages of human complexity possible here. The sexaul act that Christians like to focus on (calling Dr. Freud!!!!!)does not determine gayness. One can be as gay as a 3 dollar bill and never have sex. One can have gay sex and be as straight as an arrow. The act has nothing to do with it. To define it by the sex act is to reveal a mistaken mind.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
I not knocking anyone for doing what their heart tells them, but you can't reject religion, and science and still have a leg to stand on when used for self-serving idealogy.

Yes, you are and I do not understand the rest of the sentence.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Also throughout history homosexuality occoures within civilazation in waves, almost (just an example NO offence intended) like a plague.

Actually, smarty, you meant every offense by that choice of words. It is exactly that kind of passive/aggressive pretend tolerance that is so deeply hurtful to the Christian cause as it exposes Christians as intolerent, bigoted, hateful people in the eyes of everyone else.

Homosexuality appears throughout history. The bigoted minded "waves" you have imagined has to do with social acceptance of homosexuality. Where it was accepted it appeared to increase but, in fact, the only thing going on was that it was allowed into the open. It was always there. If America ever experiences economic collapse anyone not in power will be open season for bigots. Economic well being, since it lowers survival stress, produces real tolerance in society -- liberalism. Republicans killed liberalism in America by turning white people into a group that imagined it was under attack and beseiged and the Repubs have played that survival fear card ever since. It is far deeper and more effective than the race cards they play but no one ever notices that their real strategy is to make white people feel threatened. Nothing like fear to close a mind and keep compassion in check.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
If it were genetic it would be much more even, and of course bred OUT of scociety. ........Just a breeders point of view.

No, because gay people do breed and to breed a gene out of the humna pool would require a selected breeding process that even Hitler could not imagine!

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
biggun, i dont think we should have the same thing for gays under a different name. ever heard of "seperate but equal" well america tried that once and things were not equal.

I agree it is a risk as "seperate but equal" did not work, although there are those who argue that America is creating a seperate but equal society today between blacks and whites. I think all marriages should be defined as a civil union first and a religious union second and under that law gay marriage is a civil union. I have no wish to force Chritians to change their beliefs. I just want them to keep their beliefs in their churchs and homes and out of US law. But to please the Christians I am more than willing to give them "marriage" as their special word and make up a new word for the exact same thing for gays. Unlike with African Americans, separate but equal here could just be an issue of semantics.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
an apple isn't an orange, and a different name for marriage that only applies to gays is not marriage

"Marriage" is not the issue; equal rights is. Equal rights can be obtained under another name and action. Christians have every right to deny gay marriage within their religion. I would never fight to force Christianity to accept gays. I would fight for US civil society to fully and unquestionably accept gays. I am an American; not a Christian. I care what America does; not what Christians do. What they do and believe behind closed doors is their own business.

Bobby
 
  • #71
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The reason Christians care about marriage, is that it was designed by God for a specific function.

Lets for a moment pretend that is true. The flaw in the above arguement is gays are not trying to get married in the CHURCHS eyes. They are trying to be married in the LAWS eyes. The two are very different.
The Gov't may not make decissions based on religion.

So, drop EVERYTHING religious out of your arguement because it is completly irrelivent.

I honestly don't see why people are so affraid of seeing two consenting adults have the same benefits of marrige that the rest of the country is entitled to. Its sad that when two men live together in a relationship their entire life and one of them dies, the other isn't entitled to their life insurance.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]As for gays, they do not need the same benifits as a healthy family because they are simply pairs of men or women who are attracted to each other but they can still support themselves.

So in your arguement marriage should be abolished for ALL families in which both members work. Since they can each support themselves individually they don't need the benifits.

Bible thumping is great, teaches moral, virtues and respect to a lot of people, but please KEEP IT OUT OF MY LAWS.
 
  • #72
amen
smile.gif
 
  • #73
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Casper @ July 13 2004,1:36)]I honestly don't see why people are so affraid of seeing two consenting adults have the same benefits of marrige that the rest of the country is entitled to. Its sad that when two men live together in a relationship their entire life and one of them dies, the other isn't entitled to their life insurance.
The point I was trying to make earlier was exactly that, but why limit it to only married or gay couples. fair is fair the law should apply to a much broader scope of people who live together.

Biggun,
really, no offence was ment, but to rephrase it a wave like....
Sorry thats the only analogy that comes to mind.
Biologicaly based on what evolutionary necessity? It does not promote advancement of the species. And even if homosexuals did decide to reproduce there would not be enough of them to carry on whatever bioimagined characteristic that their suppose to be born with. With Hitler we're dealing with a LARGE gene pool of similar make-up. This simply is not the case for homosexuality, It's not like we're trying to breed a race without noses.
 
  • #74
because in the case of full house, the brothers moved in to HELP. they weren't gay and they weren't in love with each other. thats why they shouldn't have the benefits of being married, because they weren't married.

and I wasn't upset about the wave bit, i was upset about the PLAGUE part. homosexuals have always been around and like it was mentioned before, the "wave" effect is because opression caused them to become public/private about it in "waves" or "phases"
 
  • #75
Ok...

First of all...EVERYONE IS ENTITELED TO THEIR OWN OPINION AND EVERY MAN HAS THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE! I am not conflicting any of that! but this is my opinion:
1) For those of us who are Christians, we believe that the Bible is the true inspired Word of God! That is part of our faith! Its no different than people having faith that the world was created 100 million years ago! That is what they believe! Thus, again, as Christians, we believe the Bible and what it says is true! (thus meaning that we believe Homosexuatlity to be wrong)
2) I completely agree that God loves every Gay man or woman! Jesus died for them too!! Its no different than you or me doing something wrong! God still loves us! Now God says in His word that Homosexuality is wrong! He is saying that for our safety! He wants us to obey Him so we can be happy and safe! Think of all the risks the homosexual life entails! (not that a life of "sleeping around" is any safer mind you...) But also think of the principalities that this country was founded on! If we begin to ignore those principals, what will we come too?

Again, I am not prejudice against Gay people. It is their choice to be the way they are, just as it is our choice to be who we are. I still love them the same, but my faith wouldn't allow gay marriage, therefore I am against it.

I apologize if I have personally offended anyone...
 
  • #76
Personally I'm not Christan, The last time I went to church was like 1 or 2 years ago. Anyway I think Gays should have thier rights, What does It matter to me or you? Let them do what they want, Just be safe. and Uhh please don't take this personnaly peoples, It's just my uneducated opinion
smile_m_32.gif
 
  • #77
our country was founded hundres of years ago, their beliefs on this subject dont matter because this is the present and that was the past. the morals and beliefs of thousands of years ago have even less to do with today.

look, IF there is a god, then he doesn't love me at all. acording to the bible i'm an abomination. that doesn't sound very loving to me. if god is real, why would he MAKE someone something that is wrong?

if god's real, to me, he's a dead beat dad.
 
  • #78
and as far as the risks of homosexual life, well maybe if we were allowed to marry there wouldn't be so much sleeping around, now would there?

other than STD's, the only risks are from people who hate us, beat us, kill us, abuse us, and who won't treat us like real people. wheres your god then? why wont he protect me, his CHILD. even if i believed in him, where is he? can you tell me, a horrid abomination, that?
 
  • #79
[b said:
Quote[/b] (JustLikeAPill @ July 13 2004,2:36)]because in the case of full house, the brothers moved in to HELP. they weren't gay and they weren't in love with each other. thats why they shouldn't have the benefits of being married, because they weren't married.

and I wasn't upset about the wave bit, i was upset about the PLAGUE part. homosexuals have always been around and like it was mentioned before, the "wave" effect is because opression caused them to become public/private about it in "waves" or "phases"
I'm about to leave for the day so I'll be quick. I've edited my earlier post I was in a hurry then and, really meant no offence
But it was caused, none the less, so I detract that statement.

Fullhouse is still an example of adults living together to accomplish a goal taking care of family. If you do for one do for all what does it really matter as long as you receive the same benifits. You'r now passing judgement on them for exactly the same reason as is done to you.

I know God does not hate you, Sin is an abomination not the person, he dosen't create abominations
 
  • #80
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]"Marriage" is not the issue; equal rights is.
Marriage is the WHOLE issue. If it were equal rights I would have never satarted this topic.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ] I am an American; not a Christian. I care what America does; not what Christians do. What they do and believe behind closed doors is their own business.
So Christains aren't Americans? Do you seriously think that Christians don't care what America thinks? If we didn't care I would have never started this topic.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So, drop EVERYTHING religious out of your arguement because it is completly irrelivent.
But it is relivent, because everything found in our original Constitution lines up with the Bible. Why? Because, believe it or not, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and many of our other founding fathers that WROTE our Constitution, were Christains. Of course if you didn't know that it is because the government has CHOSEN to leave that out, because they didn't want people to know that America was founded on Christain beliefs.

I have heard a lot about the Bible only being 2000 years old. That would make it very young "religion". It is documented that the Bible is AT LEAST 3000 years old. That would make it the longest standing religion, and as an added fact standing book. I really believe that if the Bible were a bunch of hogwash, it would have passed out of being LONG ago. It has survived these many years with MANY people trying to show it's wrongness, and time and time again, they in turn we're shown the error of their accusations. But, some of you really don't care just because you don't like Christain's beliefs or their Bible's standards
 
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