Where does everyone stand in regards to...

[Amateur_Expert]

My definition of creationism is that everything was basically created. Every species as they are now have always been. Every plant, animal, bacteria - everything living was made by god.

 

[Wesley]

Hmm, thanks Bugweed... but please don't metion college. I plan on going but my dad already drives me nuts wanting me to be the first in ALL my family to get my PhD. LOL As for finding info on them, I have all the info for evo... thanks I think instead of wading it will be more of a drowning thing LOL. I'll see if I can find a site on biblical prophecies, and a few other things. Agh I can't get the rest of this post done cause my whole family wants the internet it seems LOL

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

Quote[/b] ]As for finding info on them, I have all the info for evo... thanks I think instead of wading it will be more of a drowning thing LOL

hey, even I'M drowning! LOL
but you don't have to drown... Just tell us why you don't believe and at least I'll find out (If I don't already know) what evolutionists say.

 

[Nflytrap]

Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 02 2005,1:23)]

Quote[/b] (Bugweed @ Jan. 02 2005,1:08)]Still no proof. Vestigal limbs? How would you know? How would I know?

Maybe you could figure that one out on your own. Let me start you off. If "god" created us then why would he give us things that we don't need and don't use? You saying "we might need them" or "how do you know we don't need them" or (this ones great) "how would you KNOW we don't need them" aren't options, and won't answer the question.

I think those are good questions....how DO we know something is vestigal?

 

[Amateur_Expert]

thanks bugweed

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

Quote[/b] ]I think those are good questions....how DO we know something is vestigal?

First of all, vestigial structures don't have to be USELESS. Sure, ostriches do use their wings in their mating ritual, but they're still vestigial.
Sure, the appendix does make some leukocytes (I think...) but all other animals (or most anyway) use them for digesting (darn it... I practically know nothing of the appendix... to digest plants? or raw meat?) certain things we don't have to digest. Certain organisms have huge appendixes because they actually use them.
But it's pretty obvious that certain things are useless. Muscles are for contracting and moving things and nothing else (ok fine, for heating too), so why do we have muscles to wiggle our ears? or to give us goosebumps? they're totally useless heck, you have to LEARN to wiggle your ears I had to anyway. Many people don't know how to wiggle their ears.
Others like whale pelvises... well, what are pelvises for? They're where you attach your lower limbs so you can move them around. Whales don't have lower limbs.
What are eyes for? seeing. blind cave salamanders and fish don't need to see so they have greatly reduced eyes that can't see.
dandelions? flowers and pollen are for reproducing. You don't need flowers or pollen for survival (at least they don't because their flowers and pollen are useless!).
Some vestigial structures are even bad! For example wisdom teeth cause more bad than good.
Spotted hyena's pseudomale reproductive organ?
this says it all-
http://www.freewebs.com/oolon/SMOGGM.htm#hyaena

Quote[/b] ]Female spotted hyenas bear, suckle, and care for their young like any female mammal. But although their genitals are clearly female in function, they are male in form. The labia are fused into what looks like a scrotum, complete with two pads of fatty tissue that resemble testes. In addition, the clitoris is elongated to the point that it is nearly the size of a male's male reproductive organ and is likewise fully erectile.
Astonishingly, females mate and give birth through the long, narrow canal running down the center of this "pseudomale reproductive organ." During mating it retracts much like a shirt sleeve being pushed up, and during birth it stretches so much that it looks like a water balloon. "From a human perspective, the process can be thought of as giving birth through an unusually large male reproductive organ," says Frank.
[...]
Whatever the cause, female masculinization is apparently a very successful strategy for the spotted hyena, which is the most abundant large predator in its range. But this success comes at a cost that is tremendously high for the spotted hyena--and presumably prohibitively high for other species. Notably, giving birth is difficult and dangerous, especially for first-time mothers. The fact that the pseudomale reproductive organ has such a long, narrow birth canal is enough to make it a poor organ for delivering a baby. But there is the added complication that the end of the pseudomale reproductive organ cannot stretch enough to accommodate passage of the baby: In a first-time mother, the baby tears its way out. "It's the only time I've ever heard hyenas cry out in pain," notes Frank.
Even worse, the umbilical cords are so short that many first-born babies die. At only six-inches long, the umbilical cord is far too short to traverse the foot-long canal down the pseudomale reproductive organ, which means that either the placenta detaches or the cord breaks before the baby is born. (For comparison, in women the birth canal is only a few inches long and the umbilical cord is a generous foot and a half long.) The longer a hyena's labor, the more likely her baby is to suffocate and be stillborn--and the more likely the mother is to die. In captivity, first-time mothers labor as long as 48 hours and nearly three-quarters of first-born cubs die. Without veterinary help, many of these mothers probably would have died along with their babies; in the wild, many females die at three to four years, the age when hyenas typically first give birth.

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

oh, I forgot...
some vestigial structures aren't even present in all of the population.
(in humans... I got this from a magazine. I'm not sure which one... new scientist?)
Vomeronasal organ- tiny pit on each side of the septum lined with nonfunctioning
chemoreceptors- for detecting pheromones
Neck rib- reptiles have them... less than 1% of the population has them
We also have a third eyelid in the corner of our eyes
sublavius muscle- under the shoulder- it would be used if humans walked on all fours- some people have none, others have one, and others have two.
plantaris muscle- muscle for grasping with your feet (of course it's useless now) 9% of the population does not have it
male uterus- it's near the prostate gland in males
vas deferens-in females they're called epoophoron tubes- they're a cluster of dead-end bubules near ovaries.
palmaris muscle- from elbow to wrist- missing in 11% of the population- would be good for hanging/climbing
13 rib- 8 percent of population have it... chimps and gorillas have them
pyramidalis- tiny, pouchlike muscle that attaches to the pubic bone... reminant of pouched mammals- 20% of the pop. lack this muscle.
Body hair- we don't need all of it- heck, we even shave! males have more... why? do males with their bigger muscles need to hold more heat in? no... females should be hairier! LOL... ew.

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

what is that? you want more? (lol... don't you just love my rambling?)
many insects have little tiny wing-like things (Ie flies) behind their normal wings... or wing buds (I believe fleas or lice have them?...), tails and gill SLITS (NOT gills) in embryonic humans, limb buds in whale and snake embryos, gerbil (or is it hamsters?) tails, malaria chloroplasts (heck, they live INSIDE organisms where they never get to use it... why the heck do they have chloroplasts anyway?),
ok... I'm tired.
have... to... stop... rambling!!!

 

[Bugweed]

Good thing I am printing all of this.

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

he he he.... Just go to http://www.freewebs.com/oolon/SMOGGM.htm

Quote[/b] ]Apes and humans require vitamin C in their diets... which is rather odd, because most mammals synthesise their own. Yet although we humans cannot; we do have the same gene for this that they do... but it is broken! And it is rendered non-functional by precisely the same mutation in all the great apes. Coincidence? And how loving of the creator to give people without adequate diets scurvy!

sorry! I can't resist!!! I know some people don't click
not everything I mentioned is in there though.
and did I mention the beetle which has the upper wings (you know how they have to open the upper wings to get the bottom wings out?) fused so it cannot open them and therefore can't use it's perfectly made lower wings. that are obviously useless. Not even for protection.

 

[Bugweed]

Sacred Cow!! (Drop the Holy.) I have just been vestiged to death. An avalance of useless body parts! All it would have taken was a different chromosome to awaken different DNA and be someone different from who I am. (I am liking this thread more and more.)

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

Quote[/b] ]Sacred Cow!! (Drop the Holy.) I have just been vestiged to death. An avalance of useless body parts! All it would have taken was a different chromosome to awaken different DNA and be someone different from who I am. (I am liking this thread more and more.)

LOL!!! and there are more!!! did I mention... (LOL fine... I'll stop... it's just so hard!!!)
I have no idea what you're talking about... chromosomes? DNA? awakening? huh??

 

[Bugweed]

You are right. I am thinking of the hormone bath it produces that will turn what was maybe female, male. Never mind, I am laughing too hard.

 

[Amateur_Expert]

Quote[/b] (Bugweed @ Jan. 02 2005,6:19)]Sacred Cow!! (Drop the Holy.) I have just been vestiged to death. An avalance of useless body parts! All it would have taken was a different chromosome to awaken different DNA and be someone different from who I am. (I am liking this thread more and more.)

Do you mean that in order for you to have vestigal structures all you need is "a chromosome to awaken different DNA" . Alot of things have to happen in order for you to have a vestigial organ or structure.

 

[Amateur_Expert]

Quote[/b] (Bugweed @ Jan. 02 2005,6:24)]You are right. I am thinking of the hormone bath it produces that will turn what was maybe female, male. Never mind, I am laughing too hard.

You've lost me.

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

LOL me too. I am clueless.
so ... what's the next question?
I'm hyper right now

I need to ramble some more LOL

 

[Nflytrap]

LOL vestiged to death.

Many times things come out missing useful organs too...or otherwise whatever it is is misshapen...missing gill plates, fins, bent spines, etc. etc.(in fish)

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

well yeah and if missing that is bad, then they die. If it's good (as in missing wisdom teeth or something) then you are more likely to survive and pass those genes to your offspring. When more of the DNA is changed, you become different enough to be a subspecies, and when enough of the DNA is changed, wouldn't be able to have (fertile) offspring with the "parent species" (lol... did I just "coin" a term?) and TA-DA! you're a new species!  and evolution has occured!
But of course wisdom teeth aren't enough to drive evolution because it doesn't really affect how many offsprings you have.
or if it' does, it's so slightly that you can dismiss it completely.

 

[Nflytrap]

Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Jan. 02 2005,6:44)]well yeah and if missing that is bad, then they die. If it's good (as in missing wisdom teeth or something) then you are more likely to survive and pass those genes to your offspring. When more of the DNA is changed, you become different enough to be a subspecies, and when enough of the DNA is changed, wouldn't be able to have (fertile) offspring with the "parent species" (lol... did I just "coin" a term?) and TA-DA! you're a new species! and evolution has occured!
But of course wisdom teeth aren't enough to drive evolution because it doesn't really affect how many offsprings you have.

Not neccessarily. You could raise most of these oddities to full grown fish if you wished. So theoretically, gill plates/pelvic fins would become vestigal organs...eh?

I don't see how missing, say, chemoreceptors...would be considered *good*.

The hardest part for people to accept of course(even scientists have trouble with classifying species-so I don't consider that much evidence of evolution, it would be smart to make creation slightly elastic to adapt to change that is certain to occur) would be the first cell Fish-amphibian amphibian-reptile reptile-bird reptile-mammal and of course "ape"-human being.

Edit: hopefully this brain picking and researching(and my attempt to think like a creationist...did I do well? LOL) will help solve your hyperactivity

....hey, would extra energy be considered a "vestigal trait"? Perhaps in the oncoming generations humans will turn into some kind of vegetable with well developed typing appendages

Sorry couldn't resist

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

Quote[/b] ]You could raise most of these oddities to full grown fish if you wished. So theoretically, gill plates/pelvic fins would become vestigal organs...eh?
I don't see how missing, say, chemoreceptors...would be considered *good*.

oh... I guess missing chemoreceptors aren't vestigial LOL. I got a little off track (same as the vitamin C thing... OOPPSS! that's not vestigial!)
well, YOU could rasie those fish like that. If they were in the wild, they wouldn't survive. You can also rasie albino animals in captivity but in the wild most of them die very soon. (but that's an example of how mutations are either good or bad depending on the environment... If you have an albino ... ehh.... luna moth in captivity, it would be good for them because humans would raise them and care for them and TRY to get more albino lunas or pythons or whatever they happen to be) so they wouldn't become vestigial structures because they're missing (again... my fault )

Quote[/b] ]even scientists have trouble with classifying species

well... that's mostly with plants that are very... frustrating... because different genera and I think even some families can hybridize. Every scientist I know agrees that if two populations cannot interbreed and have fertile offspring, they cannot possibly be the same species.

Quote[/b] ]The hardest part for people to accept of course(even scientists have trouble with classifying species-so I don't consider that much evidence of evolution, it would be smart to make creation slightly elastic to adapt to change that is certain to occur) would be the first cell Fish-amphibian amphibian-reptile reptile-bird reptile-mammal and of course "ape"-human being.

what do you mean by that? You mean like in fossils?

hopefully this brain picking and researching(and my attempt to think like a creationist...did I do well? LOL) will help solve your hyperactivity ....hey, would extra energy be considered a "vestigal trait"? Perhaps in the oncoming generations humans will turn into some kind of vegetable with well developed typing appendages

LOL!!! I'm half way there