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Where does everyone stand in regards to...

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  • #481
I personally think it's a little pointless to be asking for proof of God too. If something is allegedly above the system, proving it within the system wouldn't make any sense to me. Like bending the spoon in the Matrix... you can't bend the spoon from the level in which the spoon exists. You can come up with some pretty solid conclusions about God philosophically, but that isn't proof. The word proof gets misused a lot.

There are some claims that have been made about some of this particular God's actions that I think have been sufficiently disproven, however.

Anyway, what I'm bothered by is people A) trying to prove creationism scientifically by using awful pseudoscience that no real scientist ever stood behind, and B) stating beliefs coming from little more than faith as factual information, and encouraging those listening to treat them as such. Having beliefs and calling them beliefs doesn't bother me.

I do implore theists to ask themselves some serious questions about what they think God really is. There is a huge difference between what we and what people in biblical times can conceive of. Even as a child you learned very complex things about the world (i.e. germs, solar systems, atoms, etc.) those people never dreamed of. More information flows through your brain in a year than they experienced in entire lifetimes. I'm probably even being conservative here. Limiting yourselves to a God envisioned by those people is a little like graduating 2nd grade in school and saying, "That's it for me... I know all I need to know now." I'm personally not an athiest, but the "God" I envision is so completely unlike anything ever suggested to me by old school religions that I can't even bring myself to call it that... that word has too many connotations I just don't want to deal with. I have more in common with athiests than I do with the typical believers of western religions.
 
  • #482
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I do implore theists to ask themselves some serious questions about what they think God really is. There is a huge difference between what we and what people in biblical times can conceive of. Even as a child you learned very complex things about the world (i.e. germs, solar systems, atoms, etc.) those people never dreamed of. More information flows through your brain in a year than they experienced in entire lifetimes. I'm probably even being conservative here. Limiting yourselves to a God envisioned by those people is a little like graduating 2nd grade in school and saying, "That's it for me... I know all I need to know now." I'm personally not an athiest, but the "God" I envision is so completely unlike anything ever suggested to me by old school religions that I can't even bring myself to call it that... that word has too many connotations I just don't want to deal with. I have more in common with athiests than I do with the typical believers of western religions.

Let's see, what do I think God really is... my best friend, and the guy who gives me meaning, and joy beyond anything I ever experienced before a came to know him.

All knowledge fits within the framework of Christianity. There is not one thing, neither scientific or spiritual, that can't be explained by Scripture. However how will all the knowledge in the world help when we die?

Peter
 
  • #483
All the knowledge in the world will be meaningless when we die, but it would sure help alot before then. I also think that the appendix assisted in the digestion of the sinew in meat - I don't believe that humans ever ate "woody" plant parts.
 
  • #484
[b said:
Quote[/b] (buster1 @ Jan. 03 2005,10:57)]I also think that the appendix assisted in the digestion of the sinew in meat - I don't believe that humans ever ate "woody" plant parts.
I don't think we were human yet when the organ was functional.
 
  • #485
Knowlege may help us in many ways, but two thousand years ago Jesus was healing paralytics, which no medical discoveries have yet managed, and it only took God's power and a little bit of faith.

As for the appendix, that was probably made for vegetarians
biggrin.gif


Peter
 
  • #486
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Was it Luis who said he wanted proof of God's existence first? I WAS where you were at! I can't give ya proof. Nobody can. Any evidence that can be provided - can also be rationalized away
well, Like I said, "god" made me HAVE to have proof. If I'm going to base my beliefs on and go to church every sunday and pray and stuff, I'm not going to EVER be satisfied with just faith. Otherwise it wouldn't be ME. I don't know who the heck that would be but it wouldn't be ME. I HAVE to ask why. like I've said before, I was raised a catholic and even went to a catholic school from grades 1 to 5 but It's just my personality to ask "too many questions". I can't help it.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I would challenge you all to read the Bible, from cover to cover, and ask the very God that you don't believe or are not sure about, to show you the truth.
whoa! that would take FOREVER (well... I would anyway), I can't understand 90% of their language and metaphors and stuff. I'm not very poetic and it would be pure suffering trying to read something with as many metaphors and poetic language and language from I don't know where :p and besides, I still wouldn't know if it was just a work of fiction or the real truth (maybe I would because I'd be wishing it was true and I hadn't just wasted so much time of my life)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I personally think it's a little pointless to be asking for proof of God too. If something is allegedly above the system, proving it within the system wouldn't make any sense to me. Like bending the spoon in the Matrix... you can't bend the spoon from the level in which the spoon exists. You can come up with some pretty solid conclusions about God philosophically, but that isn't proof.
You can't bend the spoon because of worldly limitations. God has none. It would be very, VERY simple for him (if he created the whole universe, why not save us from ETERNAL suffering [that still boggles my mind... ETERNAL! infinite! never ending! Just like the duracell rabbit- it just keeps going and going] and come and TELL us once again) We're talking about an omnipotent god that knows exactly what it would take me to believe and hasn't given it to me.

I'm an agnostic which means I don't know if there really is a god or not. I do believe, however, that If there is a god, it's not like the bible or any other descriptions of god I've heard. Those just don't make sense to me. A perfect being that punishes people by ETERNAL suffering for what they did in their short and ignorant life spans? A perfect being that punishes the babies and the babies of the babies and the babies of the babies, etc of the parents that sinned? that just doesn't make sense. I don't think nice PEOPLE (I know I wouldn't!) would do that, let alone a perfect being!
and I'm not satisfied with the answers I'm sometimes given.
"have faith", "god works in mysterious ways", "it's a metaphor", etc.
You can use that to "prove" the lord of the rings is the one true book. (well, if the author had meant it to be one and written in a couple of simple sentences saying that that book was inspired by god, that it was true, etc)
It's like I've said before... when you ask people why you should believe in the bible-
"because it's inspired by god"
-how do I know it's inspired by god?
"because it says so in the bible"
-ok, but why do I believe the bible when it says that?
"because it was inspired by god"
... right.

on a totally unrelated note, I still don't know what "facts" we were ignoring... (lol... is me asking for them getting annoying?)
 
  • #487
I can't help but be rational :p
besides, I'm happy enough as I am.
smile.gif
I don't need religion to be happier.
 
  • #488
Waitaminit!!!!! Alpha! I thought this about the evolution of the species. That didn't have a lot to do with evlolution. Focus, Grasshopper! A Shaolin Alpha can walk through the Chain Of Life! And evolute!!!!!!!
 
  • #489
well, I need people to ask something about evolution to get back on track :p... or do you want me to do homologous and analogous structures? (he he he...)
 
  • #490
Whoa there,

We totally deserve eternal punishment. A judge who condemns the guilty would be far from perfect. He is a rightious and just god, not a politically correct God. The only reason we still have a chance at salvation is because Jesus, who was 100% man and yet 100% God, died to redeem us. He was perfect in every way, and for that reason he was an acceptable payment for our sins.

God does not punish people just because of what Adam did. Adam sinned, and we inherited the sinful nature. None of us are perfect. However, if we confess and repent our sins, we are justified through the ultimate sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

I dunno if this makes sense to y'all but I'd be happy to explain if it doesn't.

Peter
 
  • #491
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] The only reason we still have a chance at salvation is because Jesus, who was 100% man and yet 100% God, died to redeem us.
so the people that came before jesus all went to hell just because they were born? that is one fair god! talk about all men being born equal. (even nowdays some people have never even heard of the teachings of chrisitanity so are they going to hell too? how can you choose if you don't know you can?)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]God does not punish people just because of what Adam did. Adam sinned, and we inherited the sinful nature.
do you see paradise around here? I don't know about you but I certainly don't live in paradise.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]We totally deserve eternal punishment. A judge who condemns the guilty would be far from perfect. He is a rightious and just god, not a politically correct God.
so because I'm inquisitive I will be ETERNALLY punished? What about those tribes in rainforests that have never heard of christianity?
 
  • #492
Actually, Alpha, there is a scripture that covers that. But, since you do not believe anyway, and this is still about evolution, not an argument about God, get back to vestigal rambling. It was more fun then. Remember, Focus, Alphahopper! Don't get lost in the stuff that does not have to do with evolution. It detracts.
 
  • #493
Before Jesus, you had to be Jewish and follow a ton of rules, and whenever you sinned you had to offer animal sacrifices.

This is not paradise because when Adam sinned, sin entered the world.

And nobody will be held accountable for what they do not know.

Peter
 
  • #494
Alpha wolf,
No one is perfect enough or good enough to deserve God's free gift of etenal life, but he gives it to those choese to follow him.. freely. The slate is wiped clean.
Once you looked at those study notes, you can see that its OK to 'believe in' evolution, but it can offer you nothing in comparison to what Jesus Christ has for you.
 
  • #495
lol... bugweed is right. Let's stop tourturing poor latecomers with this. If you want to talk about religion I'll be glad to tell you why I don't have one but you have to PM/e-mail/AIM/MSN me.
now... we can tourture them about evolution! LOL
as I said, structures are my favorite. I already covered vestigial structures (and I didn't even cover the ones that aren't completely useless!
smile_k_ani_32.gif
) so homologous and analogous structures are up next.
homologous structures are structures that ... (searches for better explanation)... are characteristics which are shared by related species because they have been inherited in some way from a common ancestor.
analogous structures are those structures with similar/same functions but with different... eh... structures? (examples are better)
now that you all know what they are... here come the examples.
Homologous structures-
bat wings and our arms have the exact same bones. Some may be longer/shorter/thicker/etc but they're all there. They could be made like insect wings or have feathers or something, but because bats didn't evolve from insects/birds they don't look like that.
same with whale fins. They have all the bones and everything that our hands have. They could be made like fish fins but no, whales are and evolved from mammals.
Dog feet also have 5 fingers (dew claw) and everything we have. same as cat feet, horse feet (well, they have the same bones), elephant feet, etc.
 
  • #496
umm... I'm not sure if this qualifies as homologous structures but I'll throw it in anyway
Most mammals.. and I THINK birds too... (except for manatees which I believe have 8?) have exactly 7 neck vertebrae. From little tiny bee bats to giraffes (sp? that looks horrible!) ALL have 7 neck nertebrae.
also every single mammal that we know of has hairs. No other group of anything has hairs like mammals (how they grow from the skin, made of keratin, etc). From humans to whales to guineapigs to bats, to whatever.
No mammal has feathers either, and unless you count pangolin's scales (which are not like reptile scales which are their skin... pangolins have scales growing ON the skin) no mammal has scales either.
also no mammal has multiple rows of teeth (one behind the other) like some reptiles and fish have,...
and I'm getting off track... so I'll skip to analogous structures. analogous structures evolved from different "kinds" of organism to suit the same environment (homologous structures evolved from the same "kinds" of organism to suit different environments).
For example fins. Fish fins (sharks, etc) and whale fins look alike but they are made differently. You will not find hand bones inside fishes.
bat wings, bird wings, and insect wings are all for flying but they're all different.
feathers and hair (which evolved from scales... all made of keratin, etc) I guess would sort of maybe be analogous structures because they serve the same functions (keep warm, keep water out, etc) but are different.
... ok, enough!
 
  • #497
Going back to whale pelvic bones...did anyone offer an explanation of why the exist other than whales evolved from a terrestrial ancestor? Here is my evolution question: Is everyone ok with the peppered moths and industrial melanism as an example of natural selection? If so, couldn't this eventually lead to the "dying out" of one specific set of melanism genes, and couldn't this eventually (through environmental isolation) lead to a new species? I know the conditions have changed and the 2 colored populations have basically reached equilibrium - I'm just asking couldn't that happen.
 
  • #498
Just to address a couple things you (Luis) raised, before you go back to homology & analogy, before Jesus arrived on the scene, people did NOT automatically go to hell. The New Testament points out several notable individuls whose faith in God was commended and accepted by God. The requirements of faith and expressions of faith by loving God and people were exactly the same.

What Bible do you have at home? Is it in King James? Middle English? Please get a modern translation! Don't make it harder on yourself!

Peter: Welcome aboard!
smile.gif
 
  • #499
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The requirements of faith and expressions of faith by loving God and people were exactly the same.
so... if it was exactly the same then how did Jesus redeem us?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Once you looked at those study notes, you can see that its OK to 'believe in' evolution, but it can offer you nothing in comparison to what Jesus Christ has for you.
I'm on page 8 :p
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Before Jesus, you had to be Jewish and follow a ton of rules, and whenever you sinned you had to offer animal sacrifices.
Jesus was jewish
smile_n_32.gif
 I've never heard of jews offering animal sacrifices.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]What Bible do you have at home?
none... but when I've been shown the bible (I had a discussion in school, etc) and when people quote the bible I don't understand it :p
 
  • #500
Maybe animals evolved to be so fast because all the slow ones became animal sacrifices. And the whales escaped to sea.
 
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