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Ethical question

  • #41
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I personally don't see cows or for that matter, any animal as being 'like us' I don't consider man to be 'just an animal' I see humankind as being slightly more special than that, but I will freely admit that falls into my religious beliefs and that is totally off topic.

Aah,well that's usually the crux of any discussion like this, I find.
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  • #42
[b said:
Quote[/b] (0zzy @ Jan. 17 2005,11:21)]If you had a coworker and that coworker is not as smart or as well equipped for the job as you. Do you think it would be fair for your boss to take some of your pay and give it to your coworker?
I think that's the way things actually work hehe.
 
  • #43
[b said:
Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Jan. 19 2005,5:15)]yeah ... oranges annoy me too. I like orange juice, but the actual orange itself is too much work. you end up all sticky and nasty. lol... at least I do :p
Mmmmm... sticky and nasty... mangoes.
 
  • #44
[b said:
Quote[/b] (RamPuppy @ Jan. 25 2005,3:10)](I do have a problem with veal).
Why?

Sorry about the three posts by the way. Should have read the entire thread before posting.
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  • #45
no biggie about the posts.

AS far as veal, again, it all comes down to where you arbitrarily draw the line. ONe would think if I have a problem with the way veal calfs are treated, I would have a problem with the way dairy cows are treated... well, I do buy milk from a local dairy that is supposed to be better than the beg milk factories...

Let's just say I draw a distinction between eating a cow that has had a life where it can run around and eat grass, play with the herd and so on, and a calf that has spent it's entire life chained to the floor of a box so it can't move.

OH, and on the main point, if I wasn't clear, I have no feelings what so ever about taking bugs from one plant and giving them to another, the plant is incapable of caring, so it's mute in my point, I do not think it is neccessary in this case however.
 
  • #46
I draw the line at anything taste delicious. I have no morals prohibiting me from eating veal, cow, pig (did I mention I love pork) Panda's etc. To me if it tates good I'll try it.
 
  • #47
The only meat I've had in several years is bits of quail & pheasant from a friend. I'm a pro-hunting vegetarian. And, even though I used to spend more time fishing than doing anything else, now I think catch-and-release fishing is pretty twisted. Big human torments little fish for pleasure.
 
  • #48
I feel that you should have respect for all living things. Whether it's a gnat, cow or even a plant. In nature there are hunters and the hunted. Some animals and plant must die so that life will go on. There is no reason to be cruel to an animal, for any reason. There are not put on this earth for our entertainment. Cows, chickens, pigs, ect, are going to die so that we can eat. I've worked in two slaughter houses. One (Lundy's) was very cruel to the animals. They had no concern for the animals pain. I saw things there that I will remember until I die. I still refuse to eat meat if I know that it was killed there. The other was more humane and I have would buy meat from them. I've talked to people about what I saw there and I always got the same response, "So, they were going to die anyway."
 
  • #49
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Where do you draw your ethical line how relative is it?
my hypocritical position is don't kill or make anything suffer unless you have to. the hypocracy comes in because i sometimes eat hotdogs and chicken sandwiches... but frankly if I lived alone (not w/ my mom) I probably wouldn't eat meat. It's easy enough not to.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I think it's pretty wrong to eat something that is basically like you, but with a smaller brain.
do cows and pigs have smaller brains?
the size of the brain doesn't have anything to do with how smart they are... if that's what you meant.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] most do exist in a stunning symbiotic relationship with not only algae, but bacteria as well.
oh oh oh ... let me see if I can remember the name... zoxanthelle?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]People seem to thing we are a way way higher than any 'animal', whereas we're just apes with big brains that have evolved a thing called 'self awareness' which doesn't reach out beyond our own species.
IT DOES TOO!!! chimps, dolphins, and others. People alwyas underestimate other animals and we're always finding out they're much smarter than we think.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]AS far as veal, again, it all comes down to where you arbitrarily draw the line. ONe would think if I have a problem with the way veal calfs are treated
something kind of random... why do we value new life with no experience and not fully developed yet more than we do mature life that has more experience, thinks better, etc?
why is killing a baby worse than killing an adult? a (human) baby can't even see very well, etc.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Let's just say I draw a distinction between eating a cow that has had a life where it can run around and eat grass, play with the herd and so on, and a calf that has spent it's entire life chained to the floor of a box so it can't move.
most cows haven't had a life like that. They're kept in grassless/dusty places and are fed ground up cows, etc. Even pigs... which are smarter than dogs... or so I'm told... many times don't even get to mate. They artificially inceminate them and the babies never even get to feel grass beneath their hooves, are kept in huge places with artificial lights, etc.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]now I think catch-and-release fishing is pretty twisted. Big human torments little fish for pleasure.
me too. not to mention many of those fish die afterwards.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I feel that you should have respect for all living things. Whether it's a gnat, cow or even a plant. In nature there are hunters and the hunted. Some animals and plant must die so that life will go on. There is no reason to be cruel to an animal, for any reason. There are not put on this earth for our entertainment. Cows, chickens, pigs, ect, are going to die so that we can eat. I've worked in two slaughter houses.
I think you should respect life too.
but... nowdays we don't need to eat meat. I have no problem ith sharks stuff that have to eat meat to live, but we don't have to and we're just making animals suffer for our pleasure.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I've talked to people about what I saw there and I always got the same response, "So, they were going to die anyway."
I think that's messed up. So we should tourture people because they're going to die anyway? who cares what happens when we're alive since we're going to die anyway.
 
  • #50
I don't think the reason we're so significantly different from animals is because we're smarter, more self-aware, or whatever. I mean, we may be those things, but if that were all we'd only be in a slightly better position than they are. I think the real reason is our ability to store and transfer knowledge (of course intelligence and awareness are very helpful here, but those aren't the sole sources).

Since all that knowledge had to be gathered in the first place, it took a very long time for this ability to become so useful. There are some monkeys that teach each other better ways of catching food... but it doesn't make them look incredibly unique. We started out the same way. As we developed languages, our knowledge-transfer abilities skyrocketed. And again with the written word. And again with long-distance communication. It snowballs. When knowledge can be stored, it grows exponentially as it's continually built upon. So of course we look impressively advanced compared to those other species now... we've been compounding our knowledge for millennia. And teaching it more and more diligently to new generations.

Our whole lives we've had a constant stream of this knowledge flowing into us... since before we can remember, really, so it's very easy to take for granted. There are so many things we know that we haven't had to figure out for ourselves. We're exposed to more knowledge in a week than most early tribal people encountered in a lifetime. As a quick example I just looked at Yahoo News. I learned that whales and hippos appear to have a common ancestor (not to drag people into that whole discussion again). Do you know how much hard work and time went into humanity's discovery of that little tidbit of knowledge? I learned about it in like 8 seconds. This is happening to us all the time. In a sense it's as if we've all lived thousands of lifetimes already.

If any of us had somehow grown up without the benefits of all of this learning, we'd be sitting naked in a field somewhere eating ants off a stick with the rest of the animals. There really wouldn't appear to be much of a difference.

Good thing to remember when one starts feeling especially superior I guess.
 
  • #51
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] very dilute fertilizer solution
and tell me the reason yoy have carnivorus plants?

really i dont like the taste of most meats. when you ask if a shellfish is fresh, see if its alive by tapping its shell. of it closes its alive. i mentiond that i tought that was kind of crule but the redneck males predominating in my area immideatly pounced, calling me a 'bleeding heart'.

oh and those males response to the crises in the middle east? theys ay: "just nuke 'em. nuke 'em all"
 
  • #52
although the plants arent going to cry or anything I dont think you should just because It's "rightfully" theirs
 
  • #53
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I think the real reason is our ability to store and transfer knowledge (of course intelligence and awareness are very helpful here, but those aren't the sole sources).
many animals do that. elephants, chimps, orangutans, birds, etc...
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Do you know how much hard work and time went into humanity's discovery of that little tidbit of knowledge?
THAT'S what makes us unique. we care about other things (well... we can care about other things because we aren't somewhere in africa with lions trying to eat us) They care about what's under the stone (grubs to eat, etc) and we care what's IN the rock (elements, etc)
 
  • #54
[b said:
Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Jan. 25 2005,11:00)]many animals do that. elephants, chimps, orangutans, birds, etc...
That's what I mean... not remotely to the extent we do.
 
  • #55
I have released insects that were trapped on/in my plants thereby changing the future of the universe... or was it all meant to be?
 
  • #56
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I dont think you should just because It's "rightfully" theirs

is it? is it your place to deside whats right and whats wrong?

In short, yes. But, the long answer, just because you sez its rightfully theirs doesnt make it so. My D. Capenses seem to get all the goodies. left one out one cool summer night with some others and it was bllack with bugs. Its not going to miss a few and, anyway, inst sharing a virtue. No, you cant have that crayon. its mine. MINE!
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