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Thread: News alert regarding pres. bush

  1. #25

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Evanston, IL
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (RamPuppy @ Feb. 25 2005,12:52)]That was a pretty funny joke, and I am a bushie.

    Alpha_Wolf, why would you ever believe that seperation is implied when the vast majority of the founding fathers were christian? if ANYTHING, you must interporet their works with a pro-christian slant.

    In addition, It is widely held that the founding fathers most likely never concieved that there would be Islam, poopoism, Budhism and so on in this country, their freedome of religion was more likely 'freedom to practice your religion within a christian perspective, i.e. calvanists, catholics, baptists and puritains can all get along together." granted, that is not the way it turned out, and our constitutions verbage is broad enough to allow such wonderful diversity.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
    Means that congress will NOT establish a state religion, nothing more, nothing less. that one line has been warped so much it disgusts me. I have no problem with the government giving money to organizations of ANY faith, those moneys are usually spend to help people in their community, and I believe by and large, the community knows what to do with that money far better than a huge governmental juggernaught.

    As for only christian groups getting the money, certainly that bears investigation, but one wonders if any other group has even applied for monies? (I have no idea) and what if a few have and have recieved funding, this country is by far more christian in it's religious leanings than anything else, it is no small wonder that christian groups would get more money in that situation.

    In the end, who cares who gets the money as long as the money is used to give out blankets, help a single mom fix her car, provide shelter and sustenance for the homeless? A church with a 100% volunteer based labour force and an incentive to help others (it is part of their core belief system) will spend every dollar with far more effectiveness than a government agency that will have to blow most of that money on employee costs...

    my two cents.
    Actually, our founding fathers were by and large NOT christians. They were Unitarians, Deists, and Free-Thinkers.

    Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

    -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

    Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

    -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

    I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

    Thomas Jefferson was not a fan of christianity. You should read some of the stuff the other founding fathers had to say.

    It infuriates me that even one penny of my tax dollars are going to support churches of ANY stripe. I wish I could opt out of that portion of my taxes. I'm NOT a Bushie.

    To quote Frank Zappa "Tax the churches. Tax the businesses owned by the churches."

    \"People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution; they don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible,\" Jamie Raskin, to Senator Nancy Jacobs.

  2. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    San Antonio, Texas; USA
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    Well Aprihl, I guess we agree on something, I would be willing to bet that the very programs you like your taxes being spend on, are the ones I would love to opt out of to. If you can get the government to stop supporting programs I believe in, and I can get them to stop supporting programs YOU believe in, then perhaps we will both have more money and we can spend it on those programs by writing out a check and doing it ourselves... oh wait... that makes to much sense.

    BTW, I haven't read the biography you reference, and I do know there were deists and so on accounted for in our founding fathers, but the fact remains, there are a number of them, and many of them, (and many of the big names) were christian.

    You are right to point out that an act to introduce the name "Jesus Christ" into the preamble would be exclusitory to other beliefs, you perhaps miss that that is an embracing manuver, welcoming all religions.

    Seperation of Church and State is not an argument that can be won, it is as nebulous as arguing the origins, neither party will back down, I think we can agree to disagree.
    \"Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: \"Mankind\". Basically, it\'s made up of two separate words - \"mank\" and \"ind\". What do these words mean ? It\'s a mystery, and that\'s why so is mankind.\" ~ Jack Handey

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