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Thread: Animals

  1. #33

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    many animlas make artificial structures. bees, termites, orangutans, beavers, birds that make nests, caddisfly larvae, prairy dogs, etc.
    who says that conciousness makes you want to make wars, nest building, etc? you can be aware of yourself but not want to do that...
    the thought processes we have isn't the only type of thought processes there are.

    on a kind of unrelated subject that doesn't really have anything to do with what we're talking about, plants can feel and yet they don't have nerves. They respond to touch, know where up and down is, wrap themselves around things, etc.... yet they don't have nerve cells or inner ears. who knows.. maybe they even feel pain just in a different way that we do.
    because what are nerves but just a way for two parts of the body to communicate with each other? plants obviously do that. you touch a VFT's trigger hair and the hair doesn't move, the trap does.
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
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  2. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I bet you could make a super-complex computer that could interact just like a human does. would it be concious?
    Good question. A lot of people are hoping to find the answer to it someday. I have a feeling this issue is going to be this century's hit to the human ego (evolution being last century's hit). Expect at least as much controversy and resistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]a chess playing computer isn't concious. it has no sense of self, because ... it's hard to put this into words... it doesn't plan ahead for IT. the spider knows IT is going to be above the spiderweb and be able to pounce on the spider.
    Does the spider have to be aware of itself in order to have a goal? If instinct is providing the goal (survival), and the spider is drawing from an arsenal of behaviors in order to accomplish that goal, and using a selection process to determine which behavior is most useful at any given point... then isn't the chess program kind of doing the same thing? Even though it is much less advanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]another question... what IS a sense of self? is it knowing you exist? is it thinking about yourself as separate from your body (like humans do... this is me, that's my brain, that's my body. You don't think you are your brain.)? is it realizing that those hands you see are yours?
    I think it's the thing behind your eyes looking out... that's the best way I can think of to describe how I see it. It's not just existing, but being. Why or how consciousness exists is in the top 5 of my list of the most interesting questions in life. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif[/img]

    And like Zongyi said, there's unfortunately no such thing as proof of consciousness. Consciousness is a solely internal, subjective experience, as it stands.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The thing I would like to know is that if most animals have a conciousness, wouldn't they develop speach by now, and for the whales, monkies, cuttlefish, etc that do communicate, why havn't they built up something artificial (other than monkies, but it doesn't help them survive much). If hands and thumbs are an excuse, couln't they have at least learned war, nest building, etc.?
    Somewhere in the evolution thread I was rambling (I ramble a lot) about why I think this is. Learning progresses exponentially. New information is assimilated based on old information. So the more you already know, the faster you can learn new things. I think the main reason human society is so much more advanced than animal societies is the fact that we're so much better at retaining and transferring information. Each of us has a library of information in our heads that took thousands of lifetimes to acquire, so in a way we're living as if we've lived thousands of lives, whereas even the smartest animals are living as if they've lived two, three, five lives maybe.

    When things grow exponentially, the curve at first is almost flat, then very gradually slopes upward more and more, and accelerates until it's almost vertical. I'm not sure how to describe it best, but what I'm trying to say is, when you're in the slow part of the slope, seemingly tiny achievements take a great deal of time and work. So for a chimp, going from a hand to a spear might be an advancement proportional to a human going from seacraft to spacecraft. If that makes any sense... probably not. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/confused.gif[/img]

    Maybe dolphins and whales think this whole tool-building thing is silly... why try to manipulate your environment when it will provide everything you need it you know how to take advantage of it? [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif[/img]

  3. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Does the spider have to be aware of itself in order to have a goal? If instinct is providing the goal (survival), and the spider is drawing from an arsenal of behaviors in order to accomplish that goal, and using a selection process to determine which behavior is most useful at any given point... then isn't the chess program kind of doing the same thing?
    isn't that what WE'RE doing? (except not everything is for survival... it's also for happiness/pleasure/other good feelings... which could be a kind of mental survival :P)
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]It's not just existing, but being.
    lol.... ok, fine. I'll stop asking. we'll just go in circles. lol
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]When things grow exponentially, the curve at first is almost flat, then very gradually slopes upward more and more, and accelerates until it's almost vertical.
    my US. history teacher said something today about our knowledge about the world doubling every year? I know exactly what you mean.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Maybe dolphins and whales think this whole tool-building thing is silly... why try to manipulate your environment when it will provide everything you need it you know how to take advantage of it?
    heck, there are different ways of thinking with humans too. and we are all the same species! although sometimes you can't understand how those idiots out there are the same species as you! LOL [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_n_32.gif[/img]
    freedom fries... wow!
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
    wikipedia rocks! (except for species info)(CPers-add your vast knowledge of CPs to wikipedia&#33
    A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it
    Get all the fools on your side and you can be elected to anything

  4. #36

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    Well, consiousness (i can never spell that) in my opinion will involve some greed, jelosy or a sence of unfairness. If one is to be aware of itself, it must know that it is treated unfairly. This, again in my opinion, will result in wars. Wars may be the best example of animal inteligience because the one with the most sophisticated tool wins (otherwise, the one with more soldiers). So consiousness develops, self understanding starts, jealosy starts, war starts, and then scientific achievements starts. Since no other animal has activly engaged in a technological war, it can be argued that they dont have a consience. But then again, I am only being a greedy resorce grabbing human like we all are, other animals might be smart enough to think otherwise [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_n_32.gif[/img] .

    I agree with you endparenthesis about your idea of that slope thing (kinda hard to say it all over again [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/img] ). Perhaps if we left earth, something will emerge from the shadows over time to fill in the nitch.

    I also agree that inteligence is based on a need. Dolphins can live perfictly well without a consiousness or tools, so why get it. Why havn't tigers ruled the world? Perhaps animals that have some sort of defence will never get a consiousness or a high level of inteligence because there is no need. Humans that came down from the trees were defenceless aganinst one ton cats, so we used consiousness as a defence to get higher levels of technology that can defend us.

    But if a high level of inteligence almost garentees imortality for a species, why hasn't all of the creatures on earth developed the way we did? Even without the need for tools, isn't evolution's goal to perserve a gene? Our race is practically undestructable now, but no other animal has taken our path. Zongyi
    What you want to do is illeagle here in Canada.
    Email does not work! Use PM or yangzongyi@hotmail.com instead.

  5. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]isn't that what WE'RE doing?
    Possibly. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif[/img]

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]lol.... ok, fine. I'll stop asking. we'll just go in circles. lol
    I just doesn't lend itself to words, or I'm just not eloquent enough to attempt it, or I don't understand it enough in the first place. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif[/img]

    There are whole books written just in trying to define it.

  6. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Well, consiousness (i can never spell that) in my opinion will involve some greed, jelosy or a sence of unfairness.
    hey, animals have that too :P
    yet I still disagree. I think you can have consciousness (I was spelling it wrong too! lol. Just checked with spellchecker) without greed, jealousy, and a sense of unfairness. I think they came separately.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Dolphins can live perfictly well without a consiousness or tools, so why get it.
    they do have conciousness.
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
    wikipedia rocks! (except for species info)(CPers-add your vast knowledge of CPs to wikipedia&#33
    A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it
    Get all the fools on your side and you can be elected to anything

  7. #39
    endparenthesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Perhaps if we left earth, something will emerge from the shadows over time to fill in the nitch.
    I hope it's cephalopods. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif[/img]

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]But if a high level of inteligence almost garentees imortality for a species, why hasn't all of the creatures on earth developed the way we did? Even without the need for tools, isn't evolution's goal to perserve a gene? Our race is practically undestructable now, but no other animal has taken our path.
    Evolution doesn't produce what's best, it produces what's good enough.

    And I think we've become a 'force' that animals are adapting too, but we're moving too fast. I think we'd see a lot of them evolving in response rather than being wiped out completely if humans were progressing much more slowly.

    My uncle once told me that animals just have to evolve if they want to share the planet with us. I remember thinking, "Well, I hope you don't mind being lonely... nothing is 'fit' enough to withstand what we're doing, maybe not even us."

  8. #40

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    Oh, and with the artificial tools like beehives and dams, I can also argue that its instinct [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_n_32.gif[/img] . Zongyi

    Edit, im going to sleep now
    What you want to do is illeagle here in Canada.
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