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I may lose all my plants

  • #101
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Trapper7 @ Mar. 22 2005,8:28)]Ok I don't get this.The judge asked you if you have any dangerous plants or animals,you said no.Then she asked if you have any plants or animals,you said yes.Ok then at the end you wrote that you asked for this case to be dismissed and she said denied,then she said that you addmitted to having may be hazzardous plants or animals...NO YOU DIDN'T!!!You said NO to that part,You said yes to the part where she asked if you have just regular plain old plants and animals.You never addmitted to having possibly hazzardous animals!Am I right?Or did I misunderstand?
No, of course ozzy didn't say his plants are dangerous, he addmitted to having non-hazardous plants on his property, it was the judge who then said these plants may be considered hazardous to the general community. He probably suspected this because ozzy said he had plants in his house though, lol.

I say give the judge a friggin lecture about the trapping mechanisms of cps, then at the end..."Now, do you believe that these plants can harm people, your honour?" *No answer...snore*...Or you could send the judge saying the town will be invaded by cps if he/she does not comply with your wishes...

Well I suppose the best thing to do is like Treaqum said, be aggressive but not too aggressive. They want you to MOVE just becuz of that? Man...

Wait, wait, so the prosecutor really is your landlord? Sorry if I missed that - slightly put off by 10 pages to slog through (man this topic is going off the scale). Heck no, don't invite them to your house, seeing the real stuff might be more 'terrifying' than pictures (things with teeth). And what *if* your dog tried to bite one of them? Then you'l be screwed.
 
  • #102
Ozzy, I'd seriously recommend at this point getting a lawyer.  I can't stress this enough.

GET A LAWYER, OR FIND YOUR PLANTS NEW HOMES NOW.

Somebody said this is a civil (contract) case -- it is not, from my understanding.  Ozzy is accused of violating a town ordinance, and faces fines and property seizure.  That is a criminal case.

The criminal justice system is set up in such a way that it chews up naive, innocent people.  Never trust a judge or prosecutor.  Never talk to them without your own lawyer.

From your description of the proceedings and your behavior, you did exactly the wrong things.

YOU NEED TO GET YOURSELF A LAWYER.  For what should be a cut-and-dried case like this, you don't need a high rate one; somebody who normally does assembly-line traffic cases should be fine.  You just need somebody to argue your case who is not emotionally vested in it, who understands court procedure and decorum, and who understands the law, and how to defend against BS charges.

The charges may be bogus, but your situation is serious.

* Make a complete list of your plants.

* Find somebody with expert credentials to write you a letter testifying to the non-dangerous, non-toxic nature of these plants.  Barry Rice or Peter D'Amato might do, but a research botanist specialising in CPs with a Ph.D. would be best; perhaps somebody here, or Barry or Peter might know of somebody.

* Try to find a doctor who can testify that none of your plants are toxic.

* AND FOR FRACK'S SAKE, PLEASE GET YOURSELF A LAWYER!
 
  • #103
Hey Ozzy,
I have a powerpoint presentation that I can send you that was done by WildBill (or, I'm sure he has loads of copies). It might help your case. LMK.
 
  • #104
Sarracenia Scott is right on what would work the best. The thing is, a lawyer's fee is about $250/hr, which includes research, ect. A lawyer might feel compelled to research the case a bit, rather than just show up and defend you.
As many of you know, I ate a $2500 fine from the USDA two years ago for importing some plants(which had bugs and were destroyed). The exporter did not wait for my permit and mailed them as "Children's Toys". But according to the USDA, I was at fault for ordering them in the first place. I talked to my lawyer, and he said that by the time anyone did the research to be ready for this case, it would be already that amount in legal fees. I could have defended myself, and possibly won, but if the Judge was humourless(as yours seems to be) and did not believe me, the fine could be up to $10,000!!! I decided to cut my losses, which may not be what some others would do.
You do need some people with credentials for verifying that cp are not dangerous. Barry meyers-Rice is one, but I also have(if it's still active) Dr. Charles Clarke's email, and I will forward him this thread and see if he will respond. He may be in Asia on one of his excursions, though.

Cheers,

Joe
 
  • #105
Well...I can't wait to hear the results of this one. Its one for the recordbooks, Ozzy.

Personally, I think you'd make a great lawyer for yourself. You're very dedicated and convincing with your arguements.
smile.gif


And this part of what you said is quite true:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]There was a report that they could be a treat to the public

Yes, carnivorous plants ARE a "treat" to the public.
smile_n_32.gif
laugh.gif
 
  • #106
[b said:
Quote[/b] (The Griffin @ Mar. 23 2005,12:11)]Sarracenia Scott is right on what would work the best. The thing is, a lawyer's fee is about $250/hr, which includes research, ect. A lawyer might feel compelled to research the case a bit, rather than just show up and defend you.
Ozzy could do pretty much all his own research, and provide it to the lawyer. The only additional research the lawyer would really need to do is to verify that any expert sources Ozzy obtained are, in fact, experts.

I'd be surprised if the lawyer needed more than 4 hours total research time.
 
  • #107
Hey Ozzy,

This is truly mad. Steve Lawarre pointed this thread out to me.

Would a letter from the Director of Conservation of the ICPS, or the president (Carl Mazur), on ICPS letterhead, saying that carnivorous plants are no more harmful to humans or human pets than any other houseplant be useful? If so, tell me when you'd need it by. I could FedEx something to you. Contact me via regular email, at bamrice@ucdavis.edu

Barry
 
  • #108
With a case like this, thats about as big of a gun you could come with.
smile_m_32.gif
 Bringin out the 'Big Gunz'

Joe

I just realised his name is a fruit and a vegetable. Barry (fruit) Rice (vegetable/grain)
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  • #109
Thanks Barry, I'll send you an email with all the details of this case. I think an expert opinion from you and Steve would really be all I need. I think this is still a case where the burden of proof is on them. I present my case, show all the evidence from books and from you and Steve and then see what happens. Thank you so much for your help.

Now about the laywer, I have represented myself in court before and I know it's an uphill battle, but at this point I don't have much of a choice.

I also want to thank everybody that has sent me a PM offering their help, I haven't had much time to answer with all that has been going on with the fourms in the last few days. I'll try to get back to everybody.
Thanks
 
  • #110
Hi Mark, I just saw this. This is most unfortunate indeed.
 
  • #111
Ozzy,

Hey, this is crazy, but when you were joking with your landlord, I think he was missing his humor button that day. YOU really need a lawyer involved with this case, especially since the judge cut you off when you were attempting to explain.

In Oklahoma, we call this "railroading" in the justice system. Your landlord knows someone in the court system and he wants you out because he believes he has a liability now.

A letter may help, but because of the ignorance already shown in this case, I think you won't be given much leeway. Seems also that the prosecutor is out of line too. If you were to do some digging I think there would be some "personal" links back to your landlord of family member.

Long term, vacating would be the best deal because "ignorance" is self induced and extremely difficult to battle. But short term, a lawyer would be able to let you keep your plants and maybe even be able to build a better case for a counter civil suit against the landlord and the prosecutor.

You tried once. Don't let them bully you. Even without money, you can plead can't afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. Not all court appointed attorneys are bad, like the TV points out.

Don't give up, we are here to support you however we can!
 
  • #112
I think I agree with finding a pro bono lawyer who's just itching for an easy case where they can tear their opponents a new one.
 
  • #113
Oh I forgot to list the animals I have for whoever it was that asked.

I have a golden retriever, my wife has a Brussels Griffin.

Reptiles
western hognose
king snake
baby viper gecko
2 golden geckos
2 adult black bear hamsters and 7 babies.
Does anybody what a hamster?
 
  • #115
Some people use the enzymes for medicinal properties too, don't they? Good way to show how benign they are.
 
  • #116
Ummm, I have a pet rat already. Ozzy, I would take every animal in your home to include your wife's little dog if need be.  I would however need direction in the care of some of the reptiles. Now mind you, I have boys here and you might come up missing one of those baby hamsters.  
 
  • #117
[b said:
Quote[/b] (endparenthesis @ Mar. 23 2005,3:02)]Some people use the enzymes for medicinal properties too, don't they? Good way to show how benign they are.
I think unopened nepenthes fluid has been used as a laxative as well as an eye wash. I think people have also put it on burns, since when its in an unopened pitcher its sterile.
 
  • #118
Ozzy when you submit your list of plants and animals as you will probibly be defending yourself (or if your really luck get a lawer) ask what plnats/animals the landlord was concered about.
 
  • #119
Oh yeah leave out all the medical parts of Neps and stuff. That just would confirm the suspetion that the plants are "drugs" which of course is not true.
 
  • #120
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]it's up to you to prove that you're not.
that's right! can't you make the argument that THEY should prove your plants are dangerous? if they say they don't know what plants you have, then they'll look like idiots. If they do know what plants you have, they'll have to do all the work and you just have to fight the arguments they make instead of going through every single plant and animal you have and explaining how there is no possible way they could be dangerous.
"Innocent until proven guilty honor! This isn't the salem witch trials where I should prove I'm innocent. They are making the charge so they should prove I'm guilty."
 
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