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Thread: Lets discuss beliefs

  1. #289
    God must have an interesting sense of humor Wesley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Finch @ Mar. 28 2005,7:21)]the only real problem i have with christianity is that harcore christians= hardcore republicans, wich wouldnt be a big deal at all exept hardcore republicans= bad for the enviorment
    Not nescarily(sp), I'm not as hardcore Christian as some but I would definately love to be hardcore(not a fanatic, but on fire for Jesus so to speak). When I am elgible to vote I will definately be Republican, but I definately care about the environment. I do this because the Bible told US(everyone, Christian or not) to do what we like with the earth, it also told us to be wise stewards with what we have been given.

    Just so we can clarify, the Bible is either ALL fiction or ALL truth. I say this because it is 98.5 percent textually pure. The other 1 1/2% does not even affect the meaning. They are things like spelling error(the didn't have spellcheck) and grammatical error like periods or commas. The Bible we have now was written by over forty men in a range of about 1600yrs. It was in 3 languages; Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. It was also written on 3 continents; Africa, Asia, and Europe. There have been over 5000 DIFFERENT Greek manuscripts with which to compare with.
    The council of Jamnia recongnized the 39 books of the Old Testimate as correct according to canon. Josephus(Jewish historian) also indicated the 39 books were recognized.
    The Council of Athenasius and the Council of Carthage recognized the 27 books of the New Testament as being canon. Both sections of the Bible refer to the other.
    Hope you enjoyed all this stuff, and if you have questions you may have to wait a while cause I'd have to ask my pastor.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Quote
    True. We get bombarded from early childhood with certain ideas; the whole public school system has had all religion taken out of it.

    since when is public school your whole life?

    (darn I'm tired)
    In my part of the country it is! When I was in a private school, my life consited of this:Up at 6:30, school starts at 8:30 and ends at 3:00, go home do homework till bedtime.... I was/am a GOOD student and some of my friends would stay up till like 12. Someo of my friends from different schools said it was for the most part the same(unless you rode the bus, then you'd have to be up even earlier!). Anyway that was off the subject!!!! RANDOMNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!! I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(hmm you could blame that on some of my friends! LOL)
    ~Wes~

    My plants are going green to save the environment

    My Growlist

  2. #290
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (endparenthesis @ Mar. 28 2005,11:58)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    Quote Originally Posted by scottychaos,Mar. 28 2005,5:20
    So she asked me to read a few books that were written with skeptics in mind. so I said "sure"! because im open-minded right?
    Out of curiosity (and playing devil's advocate again), have you read any similar books "for skeptics and people on the fence" describing other major religions? If so, how did they sound to you? If not, what happens if they're equally convincing?
    yes I have..
    im a huge fan of the Dali Lama,
    his religion's ideas are amazing, and I can believe them fully..
    I dont think any one religion has to flatly oppose all others..
    they all SAY they do, but I think thats only because you have to believe your religion is right and the others are wrong..otherwise you would have to admit your religion *might not* be true..thats a leap no religion can afford to make, and Christianity is especially against "allowing" other religions to maybe be right too..
    but im not.
    im part Scottish and part Seneca Indian..very different cultures. I can believe in aspects of several different religions.
    they all have bits of truth in them..some have more truth than others probably.
    and yes, Im more likely to be a Christian just because I was born into a christian culture..but so what?
    if I was born in Pakistan I would very likely be Muslim..
    I dont really see the problem with that idea..
    its just logic..people born into Jewish familys are likely to become Jewish..so what?
    I dont see the point to arguing that..



    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]so it follows that the bible is partly fiction..no problem, I can accept that.
    I can't. If I'm going to base my spiritual beliefs on something, I want it to be real and not fiction. If one part is fiction, how much else is fiction? Why would a book inspired by god have any fiction in it?
    thats my big "problem" with the bible too..
    but I have accepted that some of it myth, story, allagory..
    Noah's ark and creationism being the biggies.
    I dont think the entire bible is MEANT to be the literal words of God..we already know that much of it was WRITTEN by humans already..some of the things in there are human's attempting to explain some big mysteries..and they got it wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]basically giving a simple theory that proves the existance of God!
    its very convincing..I cant find anything to dispute it.
    Since I don't have that book anywhere close and since it's so simple... can you tell us what the theory is? maybe we can find something to dispute it [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_m_32.gif[/img]
    well rather than try to explain it myself, it would be far better to just have Mr. Lewis explain it in his own words.

    "Everyone has heard people quarrelling. Sometimes it sounds funny and sometimes it sounds merely unpleasant; but however it sounds, I believe we can learn something very important from listening to the kind of things they say. They say things like this:

    "How'd you like it if anyone did the same to you?" - "That's my seat, I was there first" - "Leave him alone, he isn't doing you any harm" - "Why should you shove in first?" - "Give me a bit of your orange; I gave you a bit of mine" - "Come on, you promised." People say things like that every day, educated people as well as uneducated, and children as well as grown-ups.

    Now what interests me about all these remarks is that the man who makes them is not merely saying that the other man's behaviour does not happen to please him. He is appealing to some kind of standard of behaviour which he expects the other man to know about. And the other man very seldom replies: "To hell with your standard." Nearly always he tries to make out what he has been doing does not really go against the standard, or that if it does there is some special excuse. He pretends there is some special reason in this particular case why the person who took the seat first should not keep it, or that things were quite different when he was given the piece of orange, or that something has turned up which lets him off keeping his promise. It looks, in fact, very much as if both parties had in mind some kind of Law or Rule of fair play or decent behaviour or morality or whatever you like to call it, about which they really agreed. And they have. If they had not, they might, of course, fight like animals, but they could not quarrel in the human sense of the word. Quarrelling means trying to show the other man is in the wrong. And there would be no sense in trying to do that unless you and he had some sort of agreement as to what Right and Wrong are; just as there would be no sense in saying that a footballer had committed a foul unless there was some agreement about the rules of football.

    Each man is at every moment subjected to several different sets of laws but there is only one which he is free to disobey. As a body, he is subjected to gravitation and cannot disobey it; if you leave him unsupported in mid-air, he has no more choice about falling than a stone has... That is, he cannot disobey those laws which he shares with other things; but the law which... he does not share with animals or vegetables or inorganic things is the one he can disobey if he chooses.

    I know that some people say that the idea of a Law of nature or decent behaviour known to all men is unsound, because different civilisations and different ages have had quite different moralities.

    But this is not true... If anyone will take the trouble to compare the moral teaching of say, the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Hindus, Chinese, Greeks and Romans, what will strike him will be how very alike they are to each other and to our own.
    Some of the evidence for this I have put together in the appendix of another book called The Abolition of Man; but for our present purpose I need only ask the reader to think what a totally different morality would mean. Think of a country where people were admired for running away in battle, or where a man felt proud of double-crossing all the people who had been kindest to him. You might just as well try to imagine a country where two and two made five. Men have differed as regards what people you ought to be unselfish to-whether it was only your own family, or your fellow countrymen, or every one. But they have always agreed that you ought not to put yourself first. Selfishness has never been admired. Men have differed as to whether you should have one wife or four. But they have always agreed that you must not simply have any woman you liked. "But the most remarkable thing is this. Whenever you find a man who says he does not believe in a real Right and Wrong, you will find the same man going back on this a moment later. He may break his promise to you, but if you try breaking one to him he will be complaining "It's not fair" before you can say Jack Robinson. A nation may say treaties do not matter; but then, next minute, they spoil their case by saying that the particular treaty they want to break was an unfair one. But if treaties do not matter, and if there is no such thing as Right and Wrong -- in other words, if there is no Law of Nature -- what is the difference between a fair treaty and an unfair one? Have they not let the cat out of the bag and shown that, whatever they say, they really know the Law of Nature just like anyone else?

    "It seems, then, we are forced to believe in a real Right and Wrong. People may be sometimes mistaken about them, just as people sometimes get their sums wrong; but they are not just a matter of taste or opinion any more than the multiplication table. Now if we are agreed about that, I go on to my next point, which is this. None of us are really keeping the Law of Nature. If there are any exceptions among you, I apologize to them. They had much better read some other work, for nothing I am going to say concerns them. And now, turning to the ordinary human beings who are left:

    "I hope you will not misunderstand what I am going to say. I am not preaching, and Heaven knows I do not pretend to be better than anyone else. I am only trying to call attention to a fact; the fact that this year, or this month, or more likely, this very day, we have failed to practice ourselves the kind of behavior we expect from other people. There may be all sorts of excuses for us.

    "That time you were so unfair to the children was when you were very tired. That slightly shady business about the money -- the one you have almost forgotten -- came when you were very hard up. ... And as for your behavior to your wife (or husband) or sister (or brother) if I knew how irritating they could be, I would not wonder at it -- and who the dickens am I , anyway? I am just the same. That is to say, I do not succeed in keeping the Law of Nature very well, and the moment anyone tells me I am not keeping it, there starts up in my mind a string of excuses as long as your arm.

    "The question at the moment is not whether they are good excuses. The point is that they are one more proof of how deeply, whether we like it or not, we believe in the Law of Nature. If we do not believe in decent behavior, why should we be so anxious to make excuses for not having behaved decently? The truth is, we believe in decency so much -- we feel the Rule of Law pressing on us so -- that we cannot bear to face the fact that we are breaking it, and consequently we try to shift the responsibility. For you notice it is only for our bad behavior that we find all these explanations. It is only our bad temper that we put down to being tired or worried or hungry; we put our good temper down to ourselves.

    "These, then, are the two points I wanted to make. First, that human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it. These two facts are the foundation of all clear thinking about ourselves and the universe we live in."

    -C.S. Lewis

    more here:
    http://washington.uwc.edu/about/facu...%20article.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]it's not about disagreeing with someone else's, it's about disagreeing with the bible. The bible says adam was created from dust and eve was created from his rib. it also says noah built an ark and got all the land animals there.
    yeah, I know..I dont believe any of that either..
    you dont have to. you dont HAVE to believe the bible is 100% fact. you are thinking too literally..

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I think there is FAR more to learn over on this side..
    like?
    like all of creation beyond just the little bit of this planet we can see..
    like all of creation beyond our puny 80 years.
    like what everything means.
    like what happens after we die.
    those are very interesting topics, and everyone who has ever lived wants to know the answers..
    religions claim they can give you those answers..
    and I am starting to belive that maybe they actually can.

  3. #291
    endparenthesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Mar. 28 2005,6:54)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]True. We get bombarded from early childhood with certain ideas; the whole public school system has had all religion taken out of it.
    since when is public school your whole life?

    (darn I'm tired)
    Every day I go out I pass multiple churches, christian bookstores, etc. My parents used to take me to church as a kid, but luckily they grew tied of it.

    Half the restaurants I go to that aren't part of a chain have christian/patriotic (the two are the same, apparently) items on the walls.

    The TV news talks about christianity quite frequently... the newspaper has a section devoted to religion (christian matters, sprinkled lightly with other religions so no one complains).

    I've had strangers come up to me out of nowhere intending to convert me. The last time I went to a county fair I walked by a place where kids (part of a church) were doing skits from the bible. The person running the show practically harassed the person I was with.

    I go to a forum or two where almost all of the members are christian and they make it quite known in a lot of their posts.

    Etc etc.

    Oddly public school was one of the few havens I had from it. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif[/img]

    Never in my life have I felt like Judaism, Islam, Buddhism (not a religion, yada yada), Hinduism, or anything else have been pushed on me. Any time I wanted to learn about them I had to seek them out. They were never thrown at me without my consent.

    http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

    This is absolutely a Christian society.

  4. #292

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]some of the things in there are human's attempting to explain some big mysteries..and they got it wrong.
    and the big difference between us is that I think the whole bible is just that.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]But the most remarkable thing is this. Whenever you find a man who says he does not believe in a real Right and Wrong, you will find the same man going back on this a moment later. He may break his promise to you, but if you try breaking one to him he will be complaining "It's not fair" before you can say Jack Robinson.
    that's what kids do.
    Right and wrong are culturally imposed. for it to be culturally imposed, there has to be a culture. for there to be a culture, there has to be right and wrong. it's very simple actually.
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
    wikipedia rocks! (except for species info)(CPers-add your vast knowledge of CPs to wikipedia&#33
    A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it
    Get all the fools on your side and you can be elected to anything

  5. #293
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=[b]Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Mar. 28 2005,2:44)]
    that's what kids do.
    Right and wrong are culturally imposed. for it to be culturally imposed, there has to be a culture. for there to be a culture, there has to be right and wrong. it's very simple actually.
    Lewis's point is that it is not culturally imposed..
    it comes from more than culture..
    its something ALL humans understand on a primal level, outside of culture..
    its something that is not taught.
    there probably wasnt enough in what I quoted to really get the gist of that..you would have to read more to really get the idea..
    Scot

  6. #294

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    I don't know where you live, here in the Los Angeles area things are the opposite in a way.

    Seems like all the "Christian" ideas you have come across came from people who are missing the whole point of the faith. The link between Christianity and Patriotism is in the idea of the "Good American Citizen" who has Sunday School morals, and always supports whatever the country is currently doing.

    I agree that these "Christian" ideas get tiring, but don't be judging the whole faith by what a few weak willed apathetic people do.

    While it may not seem like Public School is bombarding you with anything, by eliminating any "religion", you introduce atheism or some alternative. Since we are taught certain things as fact, many people accept these things as fact without thought.

    Peter
    the cellist

  7. #295
    endparenthesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (scottychaos @ Mar. 28 2005,7:52)]and yes, Im more likely to be a Christian just because I was born into a christian culture..but so what?
    if I was born in Pakistan I would very likely be Muslim..
    I dont really see the problem with that idea..
    its just logic..people born into Jewish familys are likely to become Jewish..so what?
    I dont see the point to arguing that..
    If one religion teaches eternity in hell and another teaches reincarnation... that's a pretty important detail. One that should be decided on based on more than where you live and who your parents are.

    I guess when you define yourself as a Christian you use the term loosely? Or you're a Christian in that you believe Christ is the savior, and the rest you have your own conclusions about? And I'm not saying this disparagingly... I'm somewhat the same way. I can't give my beliefs a label, because I'd rather just say what they are, rather than say "Well, I'm [insert religion], except for this long list of things I don't agree with." It seems like using the label in that case is just asking for confusion more than anything else.

    Anyway, about the C.S. Lewis quote.

    There's Right and Wrong, and there's right and wrong. Right and Wrong (capitalized) would be a set of morals cosmically enforced that are universal and concrete. Whereas right and wrong (lowercase) would be tools that people use in order to function successfully as a society... ways to gain comfort, trustability, strong personal connections, etc. Confusing the two is a big mistake. Yes, right and wrong must exist if Right and Wrong exist, but Right and Wrong don't have to exist for right and wrong to exist (that may be the most confusing sentence I've ever typed). And if Right and Wrong don't exist, then chances are right and wrong will be mercurial and in some ways arbitrary. Whether expecting fairness is inherent, or if it's just something very useful for coexisting that we've passed on through the generations, there's really no way of knowing. He doesn't seem to be cognisant of this... maybe he is elsewhere in the book.

    And I think his views on how humans interact (and the laws of nature and such) are a little naive. Take away everybody's electricity and running water someday and we'll see how interested people are in fairness. If I were to follow the "Laws of Nature", I'd be in prison within a month... he must be talking about a different nature than the one I'm thinking of.

    I can't say if selfishness has ever been admired (some "philosophers" like Ayn Rand encourage it)... but it's certainly been rewarded time and time again.

    Morality may be one of those chicken/egg scenarios. Nobody really knows if people want to be "right" because it's in their nature, or because they've grown up having it expected of them, and fear the shame that comes with failing to do so.

    But I suspect if we found someone who somehow survived in the wild on their own with no real contact with any human beings or other social animals in their lives, we'd see some huge discrepencies in their behavior, and what Lewis claims is universal.

  8. #296
    Tropical Fish Enthusiast jimscott's Avatar
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    Luis, you have read Flavius Josephus / Antiquities of the Jews? I'm impressed! I've got that book and haven't completed yet. Mine is in Middle English, soit;s kinda annoying to get through. One of these days...

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