Lets discuss beliefs

[Wesley]

Quote[/b] (JustLikeAPill @ Mar. 26 2005,8:46)]lmao

you mean aren't

ooops, I was in a hurry cause some of my friends got on IM... at least you knew what I meant! LOL

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Quote (jimscott @ Mar. 26 2005,9:08)
He has. When He said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." he was referring to the people who crucified Him. Taking that concept into consideraion, it is consistent and logical that He would do likewise with Hitler.

Shouldn't we forgive him too? Isn't learning to become like Jesus what we should all be aspiring to?

I've never really heard of needing to forgive a dead person... much forgiving someone you've never met and hasn't affected(or is it effect... I always forget) your life. But then again if he did a(e)ffect your life then yea it would be a good idea to forgive him... as hard as it would be.

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

Quote[/b] ]much forgiving someone you've never met and hasn't affected(or is it effect... I always forget) your life

yeah that's fine.
and he did affect everyone although not directly.

 

[endparenthesis]

Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Mar. 26 2005,10:06)]so... didn't anyone read my post about souls?

I have more questions than answers on the subject (which is probably the way it should be).

If you want to look into the scientific study of reincarnation you should google Ian Stevenson.

 

[aprilh]

Quote[/b] (Rubra @ Mar. 23 2005,3:22)]

Quote[/b] ]Each group is equally convinced they're that group. This can go on forever.

Actually only people in one group actually know him.  Every other monotheist group I know of considers God as some remote being, who's good will you have to earn.

Yes, isn't that why Christians invented Jesus?  To humanise your remote and angry god?

 

[Finch]

it all seems like a sucky and clunky syestem to me, lets all revamp and streamline it

 

[aprilh]

Quote[/b] (JustLikeAPill @ Mar. 25 2005,1:35)]looks like we're all set then laura. your religion is definately more fair and believable than "christianity".  

I'd have to agree..

the thing I have always loved about Judaism is it's intellectual quality and curiosity..as opposed to the blind sheep-esque faith of christianity.  

I still think both of them are deluded, though.

Tomorrow I'm going to Lowe's and Home Despot in search of cp's.

 

[droseradude]

crap..i guess i didnt check on this for a while..
well the universe expanded slow enough so that gases and dust could contract, forming stars, etc. It also expanded fast enough so that it didn't form a premature "big crunch" before it could really expand enough to form stars, I'll get the exact uhm..."chance" of that happening, except its midnight here so im kinda tired..
as for feelings, if designed by nature naturally it would be to
A. have the stronger humans survive or...
B. have human race as a whole survive

AS an opening statement, if feelings, etc. were made for humans to thrive, it certainly is working pretty poorly, people are getting killed all over the world, millions are depressed, angry, etc.

Well I agree with you that rage is useful for getting revenge on people, or getting stuff back.
So rage favors one human over another. Is that logical? Not really. It isn't helping the human race survive as a whole, its only causing dispute among it, weakening it.
Now if nature designed rage to eliminate weaker humans, it would work like this.
causing dispute causes the death of one of the humans, which obviously the stronger will win.
Well humans who know they are weaker than another just don't attack them, unless they're extremely immature. Nobody fights to lose.
So lets say this kid who's mad at another goes with a bunch of friends and beats up a stronger kid, or kills him.
How does this benifit the stronger kid, or human race?
At any rate, rage was a bad example.
Pride is a better one. If you are proud, what does that do? it hurts you, unable to accept assistance when it would actually strengthen you.
Also, pride makes people hate you, who may choose to attack you. You may lose, or you may win. Seems a little random.
How does sadness help? Some kid is sad because he cant get a toy? Doesn't seem to benifit him or the human race.
Also...I've given how nature would use these different emotions to help humans survive if it was just nature. It uses rage to cause dispute, then death of weaker (sometimes). It uses pride to destroy weaker humans (sometimes). It gives people consiences, very strange...to have an idea of "right and wrong" in your head, (i.e. if I kill someone in rage it eliminates a weaker human lets say, but I feel guilty. Why? Nature dusnt kno.) It uses love (not romantic, brotherly love or what not) for what? To make people happy? Why would nature want people to be happy, in fact why would it have happiness, or humor, or what not at all? Why make life? Logic is about reason, and life has no reason thru science. It seems like nature has a mind, like nature has some sort of purpose. Extremely complex, some without a plausible reason. Maybe there is a mind behind all these complex un-understandable things...too complex to have developed from nothing at all, except matter. Maybe that would be God.....
And also, I'd like to point out..you hear all sorts of stuff about supernatural things happening all over the world. Theres a little truth in every legend, and there has to be a little truth in at least one of them. And if there's a little, it holds all the other ideas obsolete.
ugh..

Quote[/b] ]Yes, isn't that why Christians invented Jesus? To humanise your remote and angry god?

Even scientists will agree Jesus existed.We didn't just look back in our history books and say..hey this guy seems like a good scapegoat and then write it up, especially since we believe deceit is a sin. Also, if I were an atheist I'd be quite content. No point in making up a religion, live life to the fullest!

 

[jimscott]

Quote[/b] (aprilh @ Mar. 26 2005,10:58)]the thing I have always loved about Judaism is it's intellectual quality and curiosity..as opposed to the blind sheep-esque faith of christianity.  

I still think both of them are deluded, though.

I've had the benefit of seeing religion form a few different perspectives. I was born a NYC/ LI Jew and did the bar Mitvah thing at age 13, as well as having 5 years of learning Hebrew. In all that time, I learned about the histor, language, and culture. Some how I missed anuything assocaited with faith. by the time I was 15, I was a self-described atheist. I lierally called Christians and other deity believing people, "poor, deluded fools, with a need to believe in something, to satisfy their weakness" - a crutch. I'll skip the long story, but I became a Christian in college. Anybody who knows me - knows that I am not a sheep. I absolutely despise phrases like, "We've always done it this way" or "We've never done it this way". If there is anything I CAN'T stand is going along, without questioning. I see anything and everything up for grabs - in the search for truth.

For the vast majority of the "sheep", who don't question anything - they ARE pretty much deluded.

Loved your cats!

 

[Treaqum]

This is totally irrelivent but why did Tony leave the forums?

Bcak to subject: Yes, Alpha of course beleveing in a god changes your genes. Isn't that obvous now. Since of cousrse genes make personallity
(Jk of course).

 

[Treaqum]

Religion is just around to describe the icompreshensable or unexplained. The Ancients did not know what caoused weather so they had their gods have different moods. Now we know about weather so gods don't control it anymore. Eventually when we know what happens after death (the next grea adventure) we will be able to eliminate god(s) all together. I see a pattern (and I'm not the only one) where as the world because less comlicated with more understanding we need fewer and fewer gods.

 

[Clint]

do what you will and have fun is what i say!

i'm not a slave to a god that doesn't exist!

do one to others as you'd have then do unto you (or something like that)

live life to the fullest with no regrets!!

go down in a burning flame of glory!!!!!

when people think of you after your gone, make them think "I wish i could have partied with that guy!"

 

[jimscott]

Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Mar. 26 2005,9:54)]

Quote[/b] ]Luis, you are getting hung up on the "trees". You are missing the "forest". The analogy provided, several pages ago, illustrates illustrates that God can "wear 3 hats" at the same time.

I get how he can be three at once but would you call yourself father and son? that's just weird. lol.

Quote[/b] ]Hitler was unrepentent. He will be in a place worse than Camden, NJ

are you not allowed to say hell? I know some people don't want to say God either.

But I AM a father to my 4 kids. I am also my father's son. I also have a brother. Here's a weird one for ya: My oldest son became a Christian a few years ago. That would make him a "brother in Christ".

The reference to Camden, NJ was my subtle attempt at dry humor. I have heard Camden referred to as such. I don't necessarily have to use a particular word and still communicate. You understood it, without me needding to spell it out.

 

[jimscott]

Quote[/b] (endparenthesis @ Mar. 26 2005,10:01)]

Quote[/b] (jimscott @ Mar. 26 2005,9:08)]He has. When He said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." he was referring to the people who crucified Him. Taking that concept into consideraion, it is consistent and logical that He would do likewise with Hitler.

Shouldn't we forgive him too? Isn't learning to become like Jesus what we should all be aspiring to?

As difficult and ridiculous as it may seem, Jesus set the example of forgiveness. Yes, we are to forgive Hitler. That does NOTmean we forget or don't learn from it or subscribe to it. Bringing it closer to our generation, Saddam Hussein is another one. Forgiveness, like the concept of the faithful remnant, is another major theme of the Bible.

Yes, we ARE supposed to be aspiring to become like Jesus. All Christians are intending to do so, in spite of our natural tendencies to sin. Jesus set the example of how to live. Jesus gave an example of a guy who challenged him as to how many times he was supposed to fogive another person. The guy asked if it was supposed to be up to 7 times. Jesus told him that it was to be 7 -> 70 times. Now some people look at that and say it should read 77 times or 490. But if you are married, even the 490 times gets exceeded in no time flat. what Jesus was trying to get across is that forgiveness is to be perpetual, ongoing, without ceasing.

 

[Rubra]

All right, here I am again. Seems like a missed a lot just by not being here Saturday.

Quote[/b] ]remember god is ALL POWERFUL. he could make anything possible. he could make people's personalities not have anything to do with genes... or at least bypass the genes somehow. yet... he makes it unfair and unjust by giving some people a rotten apple while others a nice juicy apple.

What matters is what people do with the apple they are given.

 

[Wesley]

Quote[/b] (JustLikeAPill @ Mar. 26 2005,10:55)]do what you will and have fun is what i say!

i'm not a slave to a god that doesn't exist!

do one to others as you'd have then do unto you (or something like that)

live life to the fullest with no regrets!!

go down in a burning flame of glory!!!!!

when people think of you after your gone, make them think "I wish i could have partied with that guy!"

I will be a bold witness for the Lord Jesus Christ and have fun doing it, that's what I say.

I'm a friend and child to the Most High God, that created all mankind.

Do unto others as you would have done unto you.

Live and die for Christ and be rewarded forever and ever, with NO regrets!!!!

Go up burning for JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When people think of you after youre gone, make them think "That was man who who would do anything for God, I want his passion and the realtationship he had!!!!"

Quote[/b] ]Religion is just around to describe the icompreshensable or unexplained. The Ancients did not know what caoused weather so they had their gods have different moods. Now we know about weather so gods don't control it anymore. Eventually when we know what happens after death (the next grea adventure) we will be able to eliminate god(s) all together. I see a pattern (and I'm not the only one) where as the world because less comlicated with more understanding we need fewer and fewer gods.

We will ALL know what happens after death... Some will like what happens, and others... well they won't. But since we don't believe in heaven and hell... well we can keep wondering what will happen. We can never really know what happens unless you die and then return to life. But even then you may not believe it cause you will pass it off as a dream. No one can know what happens after death without dieing. We know about weather because we can see it while we live. Death is a whole different thing.

Quote[/b] ]All right, here I am again. Seems like a missed a lot just by not being here Saturday.

Quote[/b] ]Quote
remember god is ALL POWERFUL. he could make anything possible. he could make people's personalities not have anything to do with genes... or at least bypass the genes somehow. yet... he makes it unfair and unjust by giving some people a rotten apple while others a nice juicy apple.

What matters is what people do with the apple they are given.

It is all dependent on us. He gave us a sayso on our personalities. He gave us CHOICES. He doesn't want us to be mindless zombie slaves, He created us to fellowship with Him, but our choice was to be separated from him. He thus, gave up his son that we could join Him in fellowship with him again. I've heard a lot about him not loving us. Giving up your son for someone else is the ultimate show of love it seems to me. Giving up your life as completely pure and powerful to become a human so that the human could join you in glory for all eternity.... If this is hate I can't wait to see love!!!!!

Edit: daggumit.... I wrote a novel....

 

[Treaqum]

Quote[/b] (jimscott @ Mar. 27 2005,12:16)]example of forgiveness. Yes, we are to forgive ... Saddam Hussein

Easy for you to say. Who was killed that was related to you because of what he did?

 

[jimscott]

Quote[/b] (Treaqum @ Mar. 27 2005,2:32)]

Quote[/b] (jimscott @ Mar. 27 2005,12:16)]example of forgiveness. Yes, we are to forgive ... Saddam Hussein

Easy for you to say. Who was killed that was related to you because of what he did?

I have no relatives from WW2 that I knew, but my parents did. No it isn't easy. It is a loving act - a choice. Life carries with it enough personal hurt to make things difficult for us all to forgive. Nevertheless, forgiving heals wounds. No marriage can possibly survive without conscious choice to humble ourselves, put aside our pride, show mercy, and forgive one another. Same with co-workers and friends.

 

[Clint]

sounds like tons of fun, wesley

 

[endparenthesis]

Quote[/b] (droseradude @ Mar. 27 2005,3:32)]AS an opening statement, if feelings, etc. were made for humans to thrive, it certainly is working pretty poorly, people are getting killed all over the world, millions are depressed, angry, etc.

Evolution isn't about perfection. It's about what's good enough. Life is far from ideal for us, but we're also breeding the world into oblivion and crushing all other species around us. So technically we're a "successful" species, even though sometimes I'd prefer that we get wiped off the planet completely.

I do believe in a lot of "supernatural" things (natural things that aren't explained yet)... but it's been demonstrated over and over again that evolution doesn't have and doesn't need a brain behind it. The fact that things are so imperfect supports that notion more than it supports a designer.

What you said about the various emotions can pretty easily be attributed to empathy, selfish genes, etc, but I don't want to make this an evolution thread either. It was futile last time and would be again.

And about the universe's expansion... yes, it seems we've avoided a crunch, but what if the universe goes on expanding forever? After the big bang, the various forces of the universe split into separate forces as the universe "cooled". Most of this happened within nanoseconds. Then only two forces that are still integrated are in the electro-magnetism pair. When the universe "cools" to the point where that pair splits, presumably light won't even exist, among other things. I can't remember all of the science off the top of my head, but the point is the universe may eventually be a barren, lifeless wasteland where everything is at or just above absolute zero, and could be that way for eternity.

So it's easy to say that everything had perfect timing right now. But if you were observing a universe that had been dead for 1,000,000 billion years (and still going), having only contained life for maybe 50 billion years if that, would it look so perfect?

 

[endparenthesis]

Quote[/b] (jimscott @ Mar. 27 2005,12:16)]As difficult and ridiculous as it may seem, Jesus set the example of forgiveness. Yes, we are to forgive Hitler. That does NOTmean we forget or don't learn from it or subscribe to it. Bringing it closer to our generation, Saddam Hussein is another one. Forgiveness, like the concept of the faithful remnant, is another major theme of the Bible.

Yes, we ARE supposed to be aspiring to become like Jesus. All Christians are intending to do so, in spite of our natural tendencies to sin. Jesus set the example of how to live. Jesus gave an example of a guy who challenged him as to how many times he was supposed to fogive another person. The guy asked if it was supposed to be up to 7 times. Jesus told him that it was to be 7 -> 70 times. Now some people look at that and say it should read 77 times or 490. But if you are married, even the 490 times gets exceeded in no time flat. what Jesus was trying to get across is that forgiveness is to be perpetual, ongoing, without ceasing.

That's good, that's what I was hoping the answer would be.

The big question is, would you even aspire to perform miracles? Jesus didn't want followers in the end, he wanted peers, wouldn't you say? "This you too can do."

The historical church of course didn't want you to stand next to Jesus, they wanted you to grovel. They couldn't get rich off of empowered people.

So pushing the church's manipulation out of your mind completely (and much of it is still around, not because people intend to manipulate, but because they don't know the difference... what they were taught is true as far as they're concerned) and following Jesus completely... why not believe you can be capable of what he was capable of? Could Son of God and Children of God be the same thing?