no your not doing any research for me, however if you do not believe what i say, as you seem not to, and you would like to check it out it is in The Annals(its a book) written by the roman Tacitus. What more do you want, would you like me to raise him from the dead and have him proffess it to you? i mean i am giving you all the information you should need, your ignorance(not meant in a degrading way) on the subject of Roman history is not my fault, the fact that you dont know what The Annals is isnt my fault, you wanted documents and there is one, i dont see what you want. its not that i cant find, there isnt a complete copy of The Annals online like i said in my last post, its not my fault.[b said:
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Lets discuss beliefs
- Thread starter Treaqum
- Start date
yes i found it too, its in Annals 15.44, its not that its hard i just didnt have all the info infront of me[b said:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin....c=15.44
there is a link to a complete set of it and to the right section
http://www.probe.org/docs/ancient.html
here there are a few more listed here one more roman and two jewish documents that mention jesus, and i think the jews hated jesus more than the romans did, so their mention of him should make it pretty clear that he did at some point exist, now if he was divine or not that is up for interpretation.
here there are a few more listed here one more roman and two jewish documents that mention jesus, and i think the jews hated jesus more than the romans did, so their mention of him should make it pretty clear that he did at some point exist, now if he was divine or not that is up for interpretation.
Luis,
when you are at a website, go up to your tool bar and left click on Edit. You will get a drop down menu. From here left click on Find (on This Page). A window will open. Type the key word or words you are looking for in the field next to Find What and press the Enter key.
This is a neat trick someone shared with me to locate appropriate text on a page. Make sure you are at the top of the page before searching as this search works downward.
This should speed up looking for what you want. It sure did for me.
when you are at a website, go up to your tool bar and left click on Edit. You will get a drop down menu. From here left click on Find (on This Page). A window will open. Type the key word or words you are looking for in the field next to Find What and press the Enter key.
This is a neat trick someone shared with me to locate appropriate text on a page. Make sure you are at the top of the page before searching as this search works downward.
This should speed up looking for what you want. It sure did for me.
superimposedhope
Somewhat Unstable
How many times are you going to ask someone to prove Jesus or God exists just so you can argue it? Haven't you figured out that NONE of you are going to be persuaded and will not give the other a fair shot because you set out to prove others wrong instead of learning any real truth. You argue this over and over with no intention but to argue being right and dissuade others from their own belief systems. These Evo VS. Religion threads get old and annoying, they were at ONE time fun and a learning experience - not anymore.
$uperimposedhope
$uperimposedhope
Ktulu,
No, the jews didn't hate jesus any more than the Romans did. The romans knew jesus and his sheeplings were a threat, 'cuz nothing is has sharper teeth than an evangelical christian. The romans knew that intolerance for other's beliefs is a basic tenet of christianity, and they knew the christians would stop at nothing to destroy their way of life.
Next, you'll be trying to tell me that the jews killed jesus, which is obviously and patently incorrect. April
No, the jews didn't hate jesus any more than the Romans did. The romans knew jesus and his sheeplings were a threat, 'cuz nothing is has sharper teeth than an evangelical christian. The romans knew that intolerance for other's beliefs is a basic tenet of christianity, and they knew the christians would stop at nothing to destroy their way of life.
Next, you'll be trying to tell me that the jews killed jesus, which is obviously and patently incorrect. April
jimscott
Tropical Fish Enthusiast
jimscott
Tropical Fish Enthusiast
Joe, funny you shoul say that! I was just telling someone essentially the same thing. As you remember, last year we had the "Passion of Christ" topic, immediately followed by the "Religious Preferences" topic, with pretty much the same cast of participants. It would have been better had their been like 6 months in between. A year later, we have the same scenario. And no one is convinced.[b said:Quote[/b] (superimposedhope @ Mar. 27 2005,11:11)]How many times are you going to ask someone to prove Jesus or God exists just so you can argue it? Haven't you figured out that NONE of you are going to be persuaded and will not give the other a fair shot because you set out to prove others wrong instead of learning any real truth. You argue this over and over with no intention but to argue being right and dissuade others from their own belief systems. These Evo VS. Religion threads get old and annoying, they were at ONE time fun and a learning experience - not anymore.
$uperimposedhope
However, I find these topic fun and they have als resulted in some very positive things. Personally, I have found more Christians and made new friends. Even the one whose theological beliefs are at odds with mine, resulted in a side debate on the PM's, which resulted in an ongoing friendship. S that's pretty cool!
Wesley
God must have an interesting sense of humor
I would have to agree with Jim on that one, and I was(or one of the ones) you were talking to about that. Though these do get old(for both sides I'm sure), they do seem to help you make more friends. Sure, some of us(even me at times) can probably sound pretty cruel but we aren't trying to(I think).[b said:Quote[/b] (jimscott @ Mar. 27 2005,7:15)][b said:Quote[/b] (superimposedhope @ Mar. 27 2005,11:11)]How many times are you going to ask someone to prove Jesus or God exists just so you can argue it? Haven't you figured out that NONE of you are going to be persuaded and will not give the other a fair shot because you set out to prove others wrong instead of learning any real truth. You argue this over and over with no intention but to argue being right and dissuade others from their own belief systems. These Evo VS. Religion threads get old and annoying, they were at ONE time fun and a learning experience - not anymore.
$uperimposedhope
Joe, funny you shoul say that! I was just telling someone essentially the same thing. As you remember, last year we had the "Passion of Christ" topic, immediately followed by the "Religious Preferences" topic, with pretty much the same cast of participants. It would have been better had their been like 6 months in between. A year later, we have the same scenario. And no one is convinced.
However, I find these topic fun and they have als resulted in some very positive things. Personally, I have found more Christians and made new friends. Even the one whose theological beliefs are at odds with mine, resulted in a side debate on the PM's, which resulted in an ongoing friendship. S that's pretty cool!
[b said:
uh..... I've always read and heard that the Jews(not the Romans) chose to crucify Jesus in place of a murderer.......
[b said:
I thought you didn't care? It's great that you want them and all but if you don't care, that's just a waste of our time researching something. If youre gonna use it then we will be all the more happy to look it up though. Just seeing which course youre gonna take cause you keep switching on us, dude.
Whoa calm down there, i never said anything about jews killing jesus, nor would i have, i know the romans killed jesus, unless you are a die hard christian in which case the sins of the people killed jesus but anyways.[b said:
The jews were the first to bring accusations against jesus for blasphemy(sp?) after his outburst at the temple. If you read jewish sources like the one in that link you would see the jews were going to stone jesus, however roman authority stepped in and crucified him, likely first to show who was in charge (romans hated anyone superceding their power) and secondly because they were afraid this was the jewish messiah who was supposed to lead judea in a revolt against roman authority. The roman motivations were completely political, without malice, do you really think jesus was the only person to every have new religious ideas in the roman empire? Oh and trying to mention that romans were afraid of evengelical christians is a joke at that time jesus had at most ~50 followers and plus techincally christianity did not exist yet since the resurecction is one of the principal teachings of it.
Wesley
God must have an interesting sense of humor
[b said:
For all practical purposes, the Jews did kill Jesus. Sure the Romans were the ones who actually crucified him, but only because the Jews wanted it. The Pharisees weren't allow to kill Jesus themselves, so they brought the case before Pilate. Pilate didn't find him guilty, but he finally handed him over to be crucified because he wanted to keep peace.
That being said it really doesn't matter who killed Jesus; what matters is that he rose from the dead and is alive today.
lol. here's an easier one: ctrl + F. that's how I knew that the word "christus" wasn't in there.[b said:
I like them. I didn't ask about the documents just to argue. I want to know if there was any historical jesus. The annals one wasn't very good at all, so I asked for more. I wasn't out to prove jesus didn't exist, but if I'm NOT going to believe anything they tell me. I want GOOD sources. If you research, there is credibility issues about the annals guy, and that passing sentence doesn't prove jesus was historical. (reading the site he gave me, I still don't think jesus is a historical fact. like I said before... I think he probably did exist but I don't think he's a historical fact)[b said:
You know what people don't like? people don't like it when other people that aren't interested in the thread come in and bash the thread. That becomes very annoying to everyone.
by me not caring I meant that it's not going to change my view on christianity or religion, not that I didn't care to know.[b said:
I guess these are your quotes... it seems that post had a quoting mishap.[b said:
That's what I was curious about. I'm wondering how many people think the power came from Jesus, and how many think it came through Jesus (or both).[b said:
I'm aware of that... I agree with you on it. What concerns me is who really had the power back then. Like what I said earlier about whether the bible has had things taken out of it or not. Of course the bible isn't in danger from the honest and faithful... but were they the ones in power at the time? And I believe some of the common contemporary Christian beliefs, maybe even the core ones, have developed from (or at least smell of) those disingenuous faithless people's various manipulations. I guess some examples of that might be the idea that God doesn't talk to people anymore (especially when that new information speaks of self-empowerment)... the idea that prophets that came after Jesus can't possibly be of divine origin... the idea that you can't tap into your own divine power, that it's either God or Satan working through you whenever you accomplish something seemingly extraordinary, and you're just a vehicle. Many of these ideas still stink of fear and control to me, which makes me suspicious.[b said:
In all seriousness, I think if someone appeared today who was capable of exactly what Jesus was allegedly capable of, but denied that he was Jesus (a brand spanking new 'son of God' I guess, or maybe just someone who figured out how the supernatural becomes natural), no matter how benign he seemed and how interested he was in the well-being of the planet, I think he would be hunted down like a dog, possibly by people who considered themselves the truly faithful, because of the echos of those historical fradulent teachings. 'Crucified' all over again.
I'm not really sure what my point is. I think I'm just rambling now. I'm glad part of your mission is seeing through the corruption.
You answered that question already. I was basically asking whether the whole WWJD thing is lip service or if there are people out there who think they can genuinely follow in his footsteps.[b said:
Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate a lot here... I'm just trying to get inside the heads of people and see where some of these beliefs come from. I actually hold you in high regard, so you know.
i didnt say the romans did not want jesus dead, i just said it was for political reasons, the jews on the other hand wanted jesus dead for political, religous, and many of them personal reasons. It sounds to me like you have been influnced by some bad christian propoganda, the roman religion did not fear christianity. If the romans feared every cult that came about in their empire they would have had little time for anything other than destorying the cults. As long as the people would sacrifice to jupiter the romans did not care what religion or cult practices they had, the jews however refused to so they were seen as possible problem. Jesus was number one a jew, secondly he was a trouble maker and with Judeas history of revolts the romans likely felt that he would make a good example of what they would do to people(romans were all about propoganda). The roman religion however did not fear christianity, what did the roman empire have to fear from some guy cliaming to be god and his small number of followers, NOTHING. Romans exicuted jesus for solely political reasons, nothing else.[b said:
ok no offense alpha but if thats the way you think then constantine, julius ceasar, tiberius, nero, the assiarians, confucius, the tokogawa clan, etc... are all not historical facts, you might believe they existed but they are not facts. If you are not going to believe written documents, even when there are several that all point to one event or person, then your history can go back no further than your first memory. you can not believe all you want but if you will not believe the written documents then you will never find evidence that will statisfy you.[b said:
