oh lol... sorry![b said:Quote[/b] ]He's talking about C.S. Lewis, I think.
dang I need to sleep. I'm pooped!
oh lol... sorry![b said:Quote[/b] ]He's talking about C.S. Lewis, I think.
yes, I was referring to C.S. Lewis![b said:Quote[/b] (endparenthesis @ Mar. 28 2005,3:54)]He's talking about C.S. Lewis, I think.[b said:Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Mar. 28 2005,9:48)]@#$%$#@#$![b said:Quote[/b] ]Lewis's point is that it is not culturally imposed
L-U-I-S! grr... (lol... no I'm not mad at you, everyone confuses it too)
[b said:Quote[/b] (scottychaos @ Mar. 29 2005,2:57)]i have to disagree first off he mentions only old world nations and only large civilizations, not a single small foraging group. Secondly i belive his law should be the law of society not nature, because you will never find a human who is not part of a culture which has estabilshed a set of right or wrong rules of conduct. The idea of fairness is something that is totally cultural. there are groups who do have unequal reciprosity systems and people do not feel cheated by them. There are groups that would feel that when i gave you part of my orange you are not required nor expected to give me part of your orange later. There are cultures who do not believe in combat at all so running on the battle field is acceptable. Nothing he (C.S. Lewis) has shown is something that is outside of cultural context. Unfortunately you can not find any people who do not have cultural influnce so "proving" it is cultural is very difficult but the fact that there are no universals in what is seen as right and wrong is a pretty good indication that there is not a instinctive basis for conscience.Lewis's point is that it is not culturally imposed..[b said:Quote[/b] ]that's what kids do.
Right and wrong are culturally imposed. for it to be culturally imposed, there has to be a culture. for there to be a culture, there has to be right and wrong. it's very simple actually.
it comes from more than culture..
its something ALL humans understand on a primal level, outside of culture..
its something that is not taught.
there probably wasnt enough in what I quoted to really get the gist of that..you would have to read more to really get the idea..
Scot
[b said:Quote[/b] ]In school I learned history, math, science, english, art, a few other things. Never atheism. By definition, atheism is still a stance on the state of the spiritual world... I wouldn't give it a place in public schools either. Agnosticism might find its way in there, but I don't think there's really anything harmful about saying, "I don't know."
so you'd rather it bow to something that offends millions of people and has absolutely NO basis in real life? something you can't see, test, etc? What religion would that be anyway? what makes you think YOU can dominate over the rest of the country? and what sect of that religion would that be?[b said:Quote[/b] ]In this country, public schools teach from a worldview that bows to science and political correctness.
[b said:Quote[/b] ]so you'd rather it bow to something that offends millions of people and has absolutely NO basis in real life?
The notion that there might not be a supreme being never even occurred to me until high school maybe... and it wasn't inspired by anything I learned there.[b said:Quote[/b] (Rubra @ Mar. 29 2005,1:09)]I'm only saying that you can't be complaining about being bombarded with Christian ideas, when we have to spend the first 18 years of our life being bombarded with atheism.
How quickly would the average Christian start demanding separation of church and state if teachers started subtly inserting Hindu beliefs into all their lessons? "One nation, under Brahma" maybe?[b said:Quote[/b] ]Maybe Christianity offends people, but these are the same people who are all for tolerance.
[b said:Quote[/b] ]The notion that there might not be a supreme being never even occurred to me until high school maybe... and it wasn't inspired by anything I learned there.
[b said:Quote[/b] ]Should we conclude that church is anti-education because they don't spend their time teaching math, science, etc? Wouldn't that be absurd?
[b said:Quote[/b] ]How quickly would the average Christian start demanding separation of church and state if teachers started subtly inserting Hindu beliefs into all their lessons?
with out reading the book, just form that passage you posted i can tell what his point is, that there is a universal set of morals that all humans posses, which is inherently flawed. No offense to Mr. Lewis but he is an expert of literature and as much as i enjoyed his books as a child i think he is working outside of his area of expertise. I would agree that what he said is true for all western cultures, i just think he has too narrow of a background of differnt cultures to say something is truely based in human nature and not created by culture.[b said:Quote[/b] (scottychaos @ Mar. 29 2005,1:58)]well..like I said, there is more to it than the little excerpt I posted..
I cant post the entire book in this thread!
if you still disagree after reading the book, then fine..
but you cant really discard the theory if you havent heard the WHOLE theory..
sorry..I guess I probably shouldnt have tried to explain it, because im not able to explain it fully without posting 3 or 4 entire chapters..it would be far better to simply say "read the book"!
Scot
This atheist propaganda that's apparently floating around must not have made it to my school, because I certainly was never taught it. What I learned about it I had to seek out, just like the other non-christian religious stances. The general assumption in my school/family/life environment was that God was a given, and it was most likely the christian God.[b said:Quote[/b] ]If that was the case, it was probably because you never though about it. Wether you thought about it conciously or not, what you learned, you learned from an atheist viewpoint.
One of the huge complaints school teachers have (my sister is one) is that they just don't have the time to teach all the material they're required to teach for each grade. Comparitive religion was taught in history sometimes (I don't know if it still is), but public school barely has time to teach you about the physical world, let alone the spiritual. There are other places you're free to go to learn about the spiritual... they don't disuade you from doing so in the slightest.[b said:Quote[/b] ]That would be absurd. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with that.
nobody's been bombarded with atheism. when have you been bombarded by "there is no god" in school or anywhere else? one thing is having NO religion in publich schools (how it should be) and another is schools DENYING religion.[b said:Quote[/b] ]I'm only saying that you can't be complaining about being bombarded with Christian ideas, when we have to spend the first 18 years of our life being bombarded with atheism.
obviously not if you want to push your religion into public schools.[b said:Quote[/b] ]Maybe Christianity offends people, but these are the same people who are all for tolerance.
examples?[b said:Quote[/b] ]And as for basis in real life, God has more basis in real life than anything or anyone else I know.
exactly.[b said:Quote[/b] ]Maybe this is that christian-atheist polarity I mentioned surfacing again... if they aren't teaching christianity it must be concluded that they're teaching atheism?
that it's absurd to think that because schools don't teach one religion that they are bombarding you with atheism.[b said:Quote[/b] ]That would be absurd. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with that.
Fewer words in your explanation... I need to practice that.[b said:Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Mar. 29 2005,7:01)]that it's absurd to think that because schools don't teach one religion that they are bombarding you with atheism.
(in the example, the church isn't teaching something. that doesn't mean they're against it. in real life, the school isn't teaching religion. that doesn't mean they're against it)
[b said:Quote[/b] ]How quickly would the average Christian start demanding separation of church and state if teachers started subtly inserting Hindu beliefs into all their lessons? "One nation, under Brahma" maybe?
[b said:Quote[/b] ][b said:Quote[/b] ]Quote
Maybe Christianity offends people, but these are the same people who are all for tolerance.
obviously not if you want to push your religion into public schools.
I don't mind learning about religion and stuff, since it's a huge part of history. What I don't like is people assuming that I even have a religion, let alone believe what they believe, or a government supporting one religion over another. I don't care if the phrase is "under god", "under allah", "under brahma", the ten amendments, the five pillars, etc.[b said:Quote[/b] ]I'd quite enjoy it actually, I wouldn't accept it but it would be a chance to learn about another religion. Same goes for evo/atheism,
that was meant as a general statement about the people who do but sorry for making it sound like it was YOU as in Wesley.[b said:Quote[/b] ]I don't want to push it into school systems... unconstitutional.
how is creationism a science? it has no more of a basis in modern science than the flat earth society (which is an extreme form of creationism... should we teach both theories too? one saying the world is round and the other that it is flat?)[b said:Quote[/b] ] I say that because you do not have to teach a religion but a science
I can't tell you that because I don't believe teaching half-science is open minded... but creationism isn't a science so you're not teaching half-science.[b said:Quote[/b] ]when you can tell my why it is open-minded to only teach half-science I'll believe you.
[b said:Quote[/b] ]Quote
I say that because you do not have to teach a religion but a science
how is creationism a science? it has no more of a basis in modern science than the flat earth society (which is an extreme form of creationism... should we teach both theories too? one saying the world is round and the other that it is flat?)
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when you can tell my why it is open-minded to only teach half-science I'll believe you.
I can't tell you that because I don't believe teaching half-science is open minded... but creationism isn't a science so you're not teaching half-science.