What's new
TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Homo sapiens zoo exhibit

  • #41
you were right an anthropology major is going to correct it, altough you did a pretty good job, just some very controverital and some have little evidence to show they were our ancestors.  Frist there is alot of controversy with ardipithecus ramidus as to if it falls in our ancestors or is an offshoot.  the same with A. anamensis, though A. anamensis is better accepted.  THe only other major problem is that the robust forms of Australophithecus(A. boisei and A. robustus) are pretty well accepted as an offshoot of the human linage based on skull shape and size.  Also the lived concurtently with H. habilis and have very differnt body types (look at their jaw size and the sagital crest they have.   H. heidelbergensis and H. ergaster are usally classed as Homo erectus and people fight about weather they are just two groups of variation or if they are their own speices. Also almost all of these speices at one time or another lived concurently with a speices that was there before it. THere is alot of overlap in their time lines, so the old speices does not necessarily die out as soon as a new one comes along.


Also you forgot archaic homo sapiens, which differ from modern Homo sapiens in some anatomical freature (im not going to list them all here but if intrested let me know).  Neaderthals are controvertal as to weather or not they are very specialized archaic Homo sapiens (I think they are) or if they are their own speices, so we are going to leave that one alone.

As for diverging from other apes the last human ancestor we shared with another ape was about ~5.5 million years ago.  The living ape that also had the same ancestor was the chimpanzee.

And for the reason that apes are still around even the older ones, they are here because they explioted a differnt enviromental niche in nature.  A new speices can evolve as an offshoot of an old one and the orginal speices can survive if they exploit differnt niches in nature or if there is selective presure that gives neither an advantage.  Evolution does not care how old a speices is, only if it is addapted to its enviroment.  Thats why some reptile speices have change very little in millions of years.
 
  • #42
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Outsiders71 @ Aug. 31 2005,11:08)]If we evolved from Apes then where is the specie link between ape and human?  Also usually during evolution doesn't the older specie die out, and the new evolved specie survive (since it was naturally selected for evolution).  So why are there still Apes here today?

My belief is the one that is written in the book of truth.  We were created by God.  God created the other animals/beasts/life and set  humans above them all.  Whether or not evolution does exist, it's just another creation of God.  As for the spiritual/soul discussion:  It says in the bible that our bodies are temples that house our soul.  If you do not believe you have a soul, then chances are you do not believe in God/Christ, and the devil is winning you  
confused.gif
.
The Bible is made up of 67 individual books......why dont you ask for individual versions of each one and read them individually? Youll realise then that the facts in the Bible arnt all that seems
Thats why I dont agree witht he Bible being 'one book', because its not, and many facts from the original books have been left out
If you read some of them individually youll realise this

And as for it being the book of truth.....well, thats your opinion
 
  • #44
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Sep. 01 2005,12:12)]you were right an anthropology major is going to correct it
Thank you... that's the info I was looking for.

I forgot to add that another thing people forget is that there's really a gradient between species on a branch as far as their differences... the only thing that's abrupt is our labels for them. It's a bit like looking at the visible spectrum of light. One color gets labeled "blue" and another color gets labeled "green". But where does the transition really happen? You could identify hundreds of different shades of "blue-green" in between. We include groups of colors/organisms under the same label to keep things somewhat manageable in our heads. Some differences aren't as significant as others.
 
  • #45
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If we evolved from Apes then where is the specie link between ape and human?
what endparenthesis said. Scientists also debate which ones are apes, and which are human. How much more "missing link" can you get? PS. "specie" is some coin term. Species as in biology is both singular and plural.
Oh, and one more thing... all the fossils are in chronological order.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]then chances are you do not believe in God/Christ, and the devil is winning you
I guess I'll go to ETERNAL suffering just because I believe in something there is no evidence for. Oh well. I guess that's "just" and "merciful".... but that's another debate.
 
  • #46
[b said:
Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Sep. 01 2005,7:38)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If we evolved from Apes then where is the specie link between ape and human?
what endparenthesis said. Scientists also debate which ones are apes, and which are human. How much more "missing link" can you get? PS. "specie" is some coin term. Species as in biology is both singular and plural.
Oh, and one more thing... all the fossils are in chronological order.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]then chances are you do not believe in God/Christ, and the devil is winning you
I guess I'll go to ETERNAL suffering just because I believe in something there is no evidence for. Oh well. I guess that's "just" and "merciful".... but that's another debate.
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">
How much more "missing link" can you get?
[/QUOTE]

That's where the theory of evolution has its flaws. Sure in the last 150 years lots of people have challenged Darwins theory and could not prove falsification. But you know what, can you prove to me that we evolved from Apes? No. Fossils... ok you have some clues, but it is not concrete. You can only hypothesize with these fossils. You can not say you were there to witness the first specie to what we are now, humans. Speaking of which in order to have evolution don't you need a specie to start from? Where does this specie come from? You're trying to tell me we evolved from a single celled organism that was in the ocean billions of years ago?

Could it be that some Intelligent Design (ex: God) created the first specie link that later became the specie we are today? Could it be that some kind of Intelligent Design (ex: God) created evolution, to change us to what we are today? I'm not so sure about evolution to be honest, but if it did exist it would to me just be another magnificant thing God created. You scientists keep trying to ride on Darwins coat tails and claim that it's all natural. Hey man it just happened, nature did it! You would think with all the intelligence and knowledge of these scientists that they would be even more compelled in the complexity of this world, that it would just seem way to complex, way to random, way to out of this world for it to just happen. That maybe there is a higher being out there.

You want to talk science and theories, explain the big bang. Scientists claim that it happened 20-40 billion years ago or w/e. This is what led to the creation of the planets and the sun and all the other galaxies. Ok what created this big bang. There was NOTHING then all the sudden BANG and here comes all this Hydrogen to create the Sun? Come on. I appreciate what science is doing, how far we've come and all but they need to layoff on stuff they cannot explain. A theory that can't be proven or disproven true should not be even in the question of being taught in schools. It's just not science!
 
  • #47
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]But you know what, can you prove to me that we evolved from Apes? No. Fossils... ok you have some clues, but it is not concrete
fossils are very strong evidence, homologies, all the things we have in common (anatomically and behaviorally), things like the coccyx, we originate from the same place, things like the fact that almost every animal out there can synthesize their own vitamin C, but apes (humans, chimps, gorillas) ALL have the EXACT SAME mutation (in exactly the same place, etc) that doesn't let them/us synthesize vitamin c. That is VERY strong evidence for common descent.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] Speaking of which in order to have evolution don't you need a specie to start from? Where does this specie come from? You're trying to tell me we evolved from a single celled organism that was in the ocean billions of years ago?
SPECIES.
that doesn't involve evolution, but basically yes. It didn't have to be in the ocean, etc. but all life has common ancestors which have common ancestors, etc. until you go back far enough and there's only one celled organisms in the earth.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Could it be that some Intelligent Design (ex: God) created the first specie link that later became the specie we are today?
Sure, God could have created a bacterium and then let it evolve. That doesn't threaten evolution or anything.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] I'm not so sure about evolution to be honest, but if it did exist it would to me just be another magnificant thing God created.
*shrugs* as long as you accept evolution lol.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You scientists keep trying to ride on Darwins coat tails and claim that it's all natural.
of course. otherwise if it's not natural you could not study it in order to find evidenfe for-against it. Go into the supernatural and you can't say ANYTHING about it.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You would think with all the intelligence and knowledge of these scientists that they would be even more compelled in the complexity of this world, that it would just seem way to complex, way to random, way to out of this world for it to just happen. That maybe there is a higher being out there.
maybe there is, but that's irrelevant (to science) since you can't find evidence either way. Science works by finding evidence about how/when/why/what/etc. natural things. And that's what it's finding out. Whether there is a superior being or not is irrelevant to whether gravity exists, evolution occurs, etc.
And no, the universe isn't random. That's the whole point. Things happen because of other things, things happen for a reason, etc. Natural things are not random. Sure, we can't predict exactly where a hurricane will go, but that's only because we don't have all the information there is to know that could affect how it "behaves". It doesn't mean it's random.
and scientists (or should I say the "institution" of science...) IS "smart", etc. That's exactly why supernatural things are out of the question, and why scientists can see how the complexity might have come about. Regular people might see a snowflake and be baffled how it came about, why, etc, and then attribute it to some omnipotent being that loves us and "created" snowflakes so we would be all happy and we would see evidence of his existance, etc... but a scientist is smart enough to study the snowflake, do research, etc. and find out... well, everything about it. That H20 atoms naturally form hexagonal structures as they cool down because the ... blah blah blah.
Science is also smart because it's not narrowminded. You might say the world is "just right" for us, but of course if we evolved here then it's right for us because WE changed because to fit IT. It sees other explanations, it's not bound to religious teachings and ideas. The big bang... maybe it's one of millions, maybe universes are being created every day, etc. (although I think that's more of philosophy... since you can't prove it... but my point is that one must be open minded and that's why you need science, because we aren't gods and we can't think of all possibilities. Science just says ok, here's what's there and so from what we know this is true)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Ok what created this big bang. There was NOTHING then all the sudden BANG and here comes all this Hydrogen to create the Sun? Come on.
that's a hypothesis... but like endparenthesis said, "It isn't reality's job to satisfy our egos". The evidence (and there is a lot) points that all the galaxies are moving away from each other and if you go back in time far enough, they would all be in one place. A little common sense and knowledge of physics and stuff (which I've heard but don't really get... lol) would tell you that an explosion happened (because the forces were negative and gravity and energy and...beats me...) in order for all the galaxies to be moving at this speed and be this far away. What happened before? I don't know, and unless there is physical evidence, we'll never know.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] A theory that can't be proven or disproven true should not be even in the question of being taught in schools. It's just not science!
it can be proven or disproven. a very simple example (and there are many many more ways to falsify evolution): find a monkey with reptile scales, that lays eggs like amphibians, and with bird wings, and evolution is out the drain.
and how it has been proven, not only have bacteria evolved resistance to antibiotics, etc... but speciation has been observed. There are quite a lot of instances where one population of a certain species has been observed to become another species. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
And you can't say we aren't sure how to define species because the examples there are of times when the new population can't mate and have fertile offspring with the old population. Ask ANY biologist and they'll tell you that when that happens, the two different populations are different species.


whew... I need a drink. and some food... maybe a shower... lol... by the time you're done reading this you'll probably need them too... sorry :p (just remember I typed this)
 
  • #48
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]But you know what, can you prove to me that we evolved from Apes?  No.  Fossils... ok you have some clues, but it is not concrete.  You can only hypothesize with these fossils.
Exactly. Everything in life is odds. If you study the bizarreness of quantum physics where reality itself seems to exist in these fluxes of probability, you become even surer of it. There's no way of proving it outright, but with mountains of evidence (not just "some clues") that support it, and every new discovery just happening to naturally fall right in line with it (certainly not the case with most religions when it comes to new discoveries), I'd say we're in 80% chance of accuracy territory at this point. Maybe more. That's enough for me at the moment.

In your position I really don't think you want to start playing the "not enough proof" game.

You also can't prove to me that we aren't all 10 minutes old with lifetimes of memories implanted into our heads and a meticulously fabricated old-looking world for us to play in... but since it seems so unproductive and counter-intuitive to create such a thing, we can both come to the consensus that it probably (probabilities) isn't true. Even though neither of us can be certain... we're both pretty comfortable with where we stand on it.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Speaking of which in order to have evolution don't you need a specie to start from? Where does this specie come from?
That would be the theory of abiogenesis, not evolution, which I don't know as much about, but I don't think it has nearly as much research behind it as evolution does. Evolution's validity isn't hinged on it however it originally happened. But it certainly didn't start with a cell. It took tens or hundreds of millions of years just to go from organic compounds to cells. That's a freaking long time.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You're trying to tell me we evolved from a single celled organism that was in the ocean billions of years ago?
Yes. If you're trying to appeal to "common sense", it's also common sense that the earth is flat.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Could it be that some Intelligent Design (ex: God) created the first specie link that later became the specie we are today?  Could it be that some kind of Intelligent Design (ex: God) created evolution, to change us to what we are today?
So now you're asking if it's possible that we do have apes for ancestors? Um... yes, possibly.

If God did this, why does Genesis say it happened completely differently? In the "Book of Truth" of all places.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You would think with all the intelligence and knowledge of these scientists that they would be even more compelled in the complexity of this world, that it would just seem way to complex, way to random, way to out of this world for it to just happen.  That maybe there is a higher being out there.
I think I've figured out the big difference between the two "sides" of discussions like this.

Some people just can't seem to wrap their minds around the concept of purposelessness... the idea that productive things can happen without being planned. Once again, "common sense" is getting in the way. There are demonstrations of this "unintelligent intelligence" everywhere, and most of us barely seem to notice.

This concept is often referred to as "emergent behavior". I'm going to try not to get into it too much, because no one cares and it won't impress you anyway (you can always read about it if you want to). The gist is that very simple microbehaviors can escalate (often just creating positive feedback loops) into seemingly intelligent macrobehaviors in large enough communities. The individuals are absolutely oblivious to the process... they're just following their own simple rules. Ant colonies do very intelligent things, yet ants themselves are extremely stupid. But the rules that they follow when interacting with each other (and keep in mind they can only perceive their immediate surroundings, if it can even be called perception... the global state is totally above them) faciliate those macrobehaviors, when there are enough of them interacting. Bigger colonies are actually much more effective than small ones. The ants are almost like bits in a computer... the more you have the more you can do with them.

We watch an ant colony and "common sense" would tell us that they're driven by something. Somewhere there's purpose. Somewhere there's intelligence. How could there not be? But as a feedback loop it does just fine without it.

And I don't call it unintelligent to demean it. It's incredible. It's awe-inspiring.

Similarly, complex results can emerge from simple rules of survival (this mutation contributes to survival, this one doesn't). Especially when feedback loops enter the mix (arms races between organisms competing for survival).

Scientists aren't ignoring complexity... they're seeing more complexity. The complexity they're seeing includes not just the complexity of the world, but the complexity of complexity emerging from simplicity.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]There was NOTHING then all the sudden BANG and here comes all this Hydrogen to create the Sun?  Come on.  I appreciate what science is doing, how far we've come and all but they need to layoff on stuff they cannot explain.  A theory that can't be proven or disproven true should not be even in the question of being taught in schools.
To be honest, if you'd paid more attention to these concepts in school, you wouldn't have these cartoonish, simplistic versions of them in your head. Only creationists teach that before the big bang there was "nothing". I don't want to get on your case here... I just wish more people who were trying to evict things like this from schools actually knew what they were evicting in the first place.

Well, there's another long-winded post out of me. I'm always curious if more than 5 people actually read these things.
smile.gif
 
  • #49
Since you know the answers and my views are cartoonish feel free to explain to me how the universe began. Also since you believe in evolution and don't have "common sense" getting in the way please explain to me how we humans today have come from the great apes of long ago.

While you are listing the incomplete fossil record, could you please also explain to me where the first fossil came from? I mean did it just appear out of thin air? Or did that evolve from something? I'm confused.

Lastly could you tell us what evolution means to you? Do you and other people believe in it because you are scientific people who only believe in what they can see? Is it some kind of crutch for not believing in some kind of higher being that you have to put faith in? Or is evolution to you something that exists like gravity? Thanks!

P.S.
God doesn't have to answer to anyone about his will.
 
  • #50
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Since you know the answers and my views are cartoonish feel free to explain to me how the universe began.  Also since you believe in evolution and don't have "common sense" getting in the way please explain to me how we humans today have come from the great apes of long ago.
I don't have all the answers. You asked a bunch of questions about evolution and people gave you responses. Did you want those responses? Were you expecting people not to have responses? Did those responses mean anything to you? Could you think of reasons those responses were flawed?

That's one of the things that really makes threads like this so futile (I say after dumbly letting myself get tempted into one). I keep seeing creationists ask for details and facts. They'll get them in spades. And then they won't speak of them again. If you find any of the things I brought up fundamentally flawed, you're more than welcome to point out why. People will be overflowing with statements about how God made it all happen... and then when we ask questions they should have considered a hundred times before, they always seem to clam up. Even after the easy questions that shouldn't pose a problem. I don't know.
confused.gif


Do you want me to copy/paste all the books/articles/etc I've read on the subject? You can read the 70-some page thread from a while back that I contributed a lot to if you want. And I'm not even the most qualified person here to talk about it. How evolution works isn't a 1000 words or less kind of question... if it was the public debate would be over. You've already been given a ton of information, but it didn't seem to make much of an impression. If you're content to say evolution/the big bang are bunk without having much of a grasp on them in the first place, that's completely your decision. I probably shouldn't have answered in the first place... the idea of these things getting pulled out of schools (suggested by someone who keeps getting confused on the basics of the concepts) just bugs me, and I apologize if I got overly harsh.

If you actually do have more specific questions or want some book suggestions you probably won't have to wait long for an answer.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]While you are listing the incomplete fossil record, could you please also explain to me where the first fossil came from?  I mean did it just appear out of thin air?  Or did that evolve from something?  I'm confused.
Since soft-bodied organisms don't typically make it to fossil form, yes, the first fossil would have been an organism that evolved from something. That probably isn't really what you were asking, but I already mentioned abiogenesis.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Lastly could you tell us what evolution means to you?  Do you and other people believe in it because you are scientific people who only believe in what they can see?  Is it some kind of crutch for not believing in some kind of higher being that you have to put faith in?  Or is evolution to you something that exists like gravity?
I'm technically a theist. But what I believe in is so unlike the typical definition of a deity I tend to have more in common with the atheists than the religious. There's too much evidence out there for past lives (in research by people like Ian Stevenson), psychic ability (I've seen people do things most of the world thinks is impossible, but the attention people attract when that sort of thing is made public is usually not pleasant, so I don't plan on giving details), and that sort of thing for me to not believe in other facets of existence. I can't presume to tell people exactly how they work, though.

Evolution doesn't "mean" something to me... I don't believe it because it gives me some kind of satisfaction and I don't have to want it to be true for it to hold up. Given what we understand about life so far, I honestly can't think of what would stop evolution. Seriously... in a world with genetic variation, sexual reproduction, harsh environments, and competition, what stops evolution? Why would a species stay the same? It isn't speciation, but we've turned wolves into toy poodles in less than 100,000 years, here. Without staying dynamic, why wouldn't life on earth be completely wiped out after an ice age or a massive meteor strike? I literally cannot find a creationist anywhere who can explain to me what prevents the extinction of virtually all life on a non-evolving, young earth after time. The only answer I can get is that the earthly balance isn't meant to last that long anyway... just until judgment day. If they believe in an old earth, life should all be wiped out by now. Especially after five mass extinctions (which I guess they assume never happened).

For me to believe something it has to at least hold up to basic scrutiny. That's just a given... everyone should expect that much at least. Anything that's for real should hold up easily and gracefully. Anything that's manufactured often won't (and will require band aids, backpedaling, suspending reason, yada yada). If we were talking about a completely different, more mundane subject, you would probably agree with me completely on that. As an example for this topic... if there were some fossil (like AlphaWolf said) that came from a date that didn't fit into the progression whatsoever (like a large mammal 350 million years old), it would do serious damage to evolution. But nothing like that has been found. Why not? If it was all bunk, it would be astronomically difficult not to find an incriminating fossil. This would be an example of something holding up easily and gracefully. And don't bother saying it would be covered up by someone... that would be nobel prize go-down-in-history material. Scientists everywhere would love to get their hands on it. Creationists too.

And even if something can't be physically tested, it can be philosophically tested using thought experiments, searching for unconsidered perspectives, and questions questions questions.

Incidentally, for someone who hasn't yet answered one of my questions, you're getting a lot of accommodation here.

EDIT: I can't believe how long these posts look after I submit them... must learn brevity too...
 
  • #51
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] please explain to me how we humans today have come from the great apes of long ago.
greately simplified- there were apes (pre-humans), some of them had mutations (the offspring I should say). Some were bad, they died out. some were good, they lived. The ones that lived had offspring with mutations. same thing. fast forward, and now those tiny little changes accumulate and it's a totally different thing (not different enough that we're not apes though) that you started out with.  (remember the man to machine err... hypothetical situation earlier?)
Humans and chimps share 98%-99.4% of their genome.... and remember that both chimps and humans came from a common ancestor... humans did NOT evolve from chimps, so BOTH chimps and humans diverged from the same common ancestor, which means at most only 1% and as little as .3 % of both of our genomes had to change in order for us to be as closely related as we are right now.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Since soft-bodied organisms don't typically make it to fossil form
true, although sometimes soft-bodied/microscopic organisms do leave clues behind. Worms leave tunnels, some bacteria make huge colonies in the ocean that fossilize, etc.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Lastly could you tell us what evolution means to you?
Evolution explains the both unity and diversity found in life (for example... a cilia in a single celled protozoan and a cilia in our throat has the same structure and function... yet we're totally different. I mean, one is a single cell, the other is an aggregation of trillions of cells working together that forms an organism capable of building things that allow us to look at places invisible to the naked eye that are millions of lightyears away from here), fossils, homologous structures, analogous structures, mutations, geographical distributions, vestigial structures, etc.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] It isn't speciation, but we've turned wolves into toy poodles in less than 100,000 years, here.
If it had happened naturally, dog breeds would probably be considered different species. I mean, a chihuahua and a great dan can't physically reproduce and have fertile offspring can they?
laugh.gif

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I literally cannot find a creationist anywhere who can explain to me what prevents the extinction of virtually all life on a non-evolving, young earth after time
I can. This guy said that there were many "creations" in the history of the world. suddenly some species just pop out of thin air to replace the ones that are extinct/going extinct.
What people will do because they're so darn self-centered ego maniacs.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Do you and other people believe in it because you are scientific people who only believe in what they can see?
as EP said, we believe it because we HAVE to believe it. Just like people back in the dark ages (I guess? middle ages? I don't know much about world history), they just believed the sun was the "center" (I use that term loosely... of course it's not smack in the middle) of the solar system because they HAD to believe it. Same thing with evolution. There's no escaping it (besides being irrational/illogical/ignorant/whatever). Or find me ANYONE who is a creationist agnostic/atheist. Heck, find me a creationist biologist. That's an oxymoron! I'm not talking about self-proclaimed scientists (there ARE some people like that), I'm talking about a respected biologist that's also a creationist.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] Is it some kind of crutch for not believing in some kind of higher being that you have to put faith in?
no. Having to put faith in it is reason enough for me not to believe in it.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] Or is evolution to you something that exists like gravity?
Exactly. Technically you can't PROVE anything in science, technically there are no scientific facts besides that something exists, but for all intents and purposes evolution is a fact.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]EDIT: I can't believe how long these posts look after I submit them... must learn brevity too...
lol... that's a hard thing to learn! but saying all you want to say is impossible as it is, trying to make it shorter would just make it worse.
 
  • #52
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If it had happened naturally, dog breeds would probably be considered different species. I mean, a chihuahua and a great dan can't physically reproduce and have fertile offspring can they?
I think they can as long as the mother is the great dane.
smile_n_32.gif
There's a good chance of health problems though.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I can. This guy said that there were many "creations" in the history of the world. suddenly some species just pop out of thin air to replace the ones that are extinct/going extinct.
Oh yeah, I remember that one. Seems weird to defend Genesis by directly contradicting Genesis (humans being the last/greatest creation).

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]lol... that's a hard thing to learn! but saying all you want to say is impossible as it is, trying to make it shorter would just make it worse.
Look! This one was less than one screen!
smile_m_32.gif
 
Back
Top