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Okay- so I bought a heater

  • Thread starter adnedarn
  • Start date

adnedarn

I'm growing CPs in the Desert of Tucson, Az
Admin
I've purchased a propane heater and it should be here soon. My next question is this....
Do I need to divide off the g/h to give the tropical planets (mainly neps) heat.
Should the tropical plants also get additional morning light (i have a MHlamp) to extend their days?
Should I just heat the side where these plants are... And if the heat does happen to warm the other side with the temperate planets, they'll be okay?

Thanks
smile.gif

Andrew
 
wait...why would you devide it? the only thing i can answer is the light thing...basically you dont need it... cant neps and other plants survive with increasing and decreasing photoperiods??
Alex
 
My goal is to provide the appropriate conditions for both... Letting the temperates go dormant- while keeping the tropicals very happy and in active vigerous growth.
 
Well, normally you have cold spots in your GH unless you good at circulating the air.  How big is your GH again?  Normally greenhouses have different temp zones.  Thats why multiple thermometers come in handy.  Now it may not be enough to achieve what your looking to do though.  Have it cold enough to keep some things dormant and others warm enough for vigorous growth.  So if the variation in zones is not enough then yeah you could partition the GH.  You would want air circulation on both sides and have a few holes in the partition to allow some of the heat to cross over easy.  This would allow one side to be warmer than the other, but still keeping both sides above freezing.  Now as to the amount of holes and all that jazz your going to have to figure out for yourself on a trial and error basis.  It is going to depend on what you use for the partition, and its insulation factor.  I am sure you can figure that part out.
 
the green house is 10ft tall at peak, 8 ft wide and 16ft long. I don't have to worry about keeping it from freezing since outside hits freezing maybe once or thress times for an hour or two each winter. Although, the cooler does need to be able to cool the whole g/h. Our days are still warm enough that without the cooler running it could get well over 100 or 110.
 
Does your GH have any exhaust fans in it Andrew?  What are your daily temps outside?  Are you running any shade cloth?  You say your running a cooler is it an air conditioner or an evaporative cooler?  If it is an evaporative cooler why didn't you just go with a wet wall?  They are simple to make, cost less, cool more, and run in the same principal as a small evaporative cooler.  You have the same type of pads only more of them and your either pushing or pulling air through them into the GH and pulling out the hot air.  How Humid are you trying to keep the GH?  I realize your in AZ, but there is no reason your GH should be still getting into the 100's.  Mine did that before I connected the vents and exhaust fan, but since then it barely gets over 90 if that in the GH.  I have the exhaust fan and cyclone fan set to come on at 80 and I have 3 other fans running constantly.

OK back to the question at hand.  You could setup a permanent partition with the heater on one side and a fan build into the partition to pull colder air from the side with the cooler to the side without the cooler.  You set this fan to come on when the cooler comes on so you effectively get cooling on both sides and have the vents for heat to passively leak out into the cold side when the heater is on.  If you don't want to go that rout then get yourself another cooler for the one side or install a wet wall to one side and use the cooler to the other.  Many different variations and no wrong way to do it.  The question is how much do you want to spend.
 
I have no exhaust fans. But I do run a circulation fan. And the "auto open" roof vents are shut so they do not open... Otherwise, they'd never close in my climate
smile.gif
Yes, there is shade cloth
Master cool evaporative cooler, ran by thermostat
Didn't do a wet wall, cause that wall faces the east, so I'd lose morning sun. I dont' believe a wet wall would do better than my mastercool... It is rated for 1000sq ft. And since it's master cool- it's different pads- these are about 5" thick and made of a cardboard type material. It doesn't get over 100 when the cooler is on. I'm saying in the winter, with no cooler, it will get that hot no probelm.
I want the humidity in the 60s or so- But so far I havn't found the right settings on my cycle timmer to get that... my min max meter after 24hrs of running shows "hi" for the high and the low is about 30... Still working on that, i just got this cycle timmer a week ago.


I dont' play on running circulation at night. Lets say I move all the tropical plants to one side and temperates to the other. And set the heater to run at night at about 55-60f I figure the other side of the g/h will be 45-50 (winter lows here are about 40) That should be fine for the temperates to go to sleep.. Should it not?
 
I don't know about the temps being low enough for the plants to go to sleep. I thoguht they needed to go down into the 40's, but I haven't been growing dorment plants long enough to be accurate with that.  

Is your GH a lean to?  If it is not then you don't have to put the wetwall on the east side if it is a free standing. Put it on the north side wall. Then again I don;t know how your GH is positioned either.  Your auto vents should close at night and open during the day. If it is open all day thats not going to hurt anything thats what they are suposed to do, but I don;t like the autovents anyway.  You can get wetwall pads that are 6 inches think if you wanted, and made from the same material as your coolmaster. The wetwall also helps increase the humidity as well.  But it is not my GH and these are just sujestions.  

You could just do a trial run this year and at the begining of winter if the temps are not getting to your likeing you can adjust it then.  I am just a fan of a wetwall because you can have an entire wall of wet wall versus just the small surface area of the cooler.  

I always run circ fans 24/7 because at night is when you would get rot set in if it is going too.  That is when the temp are cooler and humidity is higher.  That is why they say to water orchids in the morning so they are dry by night.  I don't nessisarily buy into that because I will water in the evening if I need too since it rains at night in the wild, but I do keep my fans on 24/7.  No sence to me to keep the air stagnent at night in my opinion.  

When I install my wetwall next spring it is going on the north facing wall and I will be pushing air into a laminar flow ttpe setup that will in turn push through the pads. This should increase the humidity too. I may end up turning off the exhaust fan during the summer and just let the air push out because the air is being pushed though by the wetwall. That way the exhaust fan doesn't suck out the extra humidity. That can tend to be a problem if your sucking air through the pads with an exhaust fan. A friend of mine has that problem so she runs a fogger to try to increase humidity.

Have you had this GH running in the peak summer yet? I can see a problem with the sun convecting more heat in the GH than the cooler can cool. It is like running the heater and AC at the same time in your house and your heater is bigger than your AC. Smaller GHs are harder to keep in check with temps than larger GHs since the air inside them heats up faster than a in a larger GH.

So I hope someone else chimes in because your setup is nothing like I would do it, and nothing like I have seen.  Even the big conservatory in ATL vented their GH to the outside to exhaust the heat in the peak.  They didn't in the highland area, but they had an elaborate underground wetwall type system to keep it cool.  But that goes back to the two setup option too and how much do you plan on spending.
 
My green house DOES keep cool with my cooler. I said if i split the g/h in half the cooler would have too cool that side too cause it'd get too hot, even in the winter.
Yes, i had plants in here last year and they went dormant, no problem.
My g/h is NOT a lean-to it is a typical g/h. This is the inside, the back wall where the cooler is, is east and the wall that most the plants are on is the north:
ghinside8_2006.JPG

And this is how it sits out in the full sun, all day long with the shade cloth on it:
donewshade.jpg


I'm not really sure where this topic has gone though. LOL Between my master cool and my 1000PSI fogging system (on timmer) and aquafogger (on humidistat) i've got cooling and humidity taken care of. What I'm trying to figure out is care for my Tropical plants this winter. I have 1 green house that holds tropical and temperate plants. Now that winter is here, I assume I need some heat and extra light for the tropical plants (mainly lowland neps) And if they do need heat and additional light to grow their best... sugestions as to how.


EDIT: as far as the vents go... Those are made to open and release hot air out the top and bring cool air in the bottom.. That doesn't work when it is 110 outside. That's why they are dissabled. I think they are fully closed at 75f Thats darn near night time temps in the winter here (ok- a little exagerated) But they would darn near be fully open all the time except nightime in the winter. That's why i dont' use them.
 
  • #10
OK andrew, heating is an adventure! First of all, I didn't read anywhere but is the heater vented? That is a must!

Secondly, you should be venting, fresh air intake into the greenhouse is a must. I know your cooler brings some in but convective cooling would be a good idea, even if humdity will drop.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]This should increase the humidity too. I may end up turning off the exhaust fan during the summer and just let the air push out because the air is being pushed though by the wetwall. That way the exhaust fan doesn't suck out the extra humidity. That can tend to be a problem if your sucking air through the pads with an exhaust fan. A friend of mine has that problem so she runs a fogger to try to increase humidity.

In Georgia you have trouble with humidity? I'm surprised you're worried about the little extra percentage that will be sucked out. Mike Catalani had a wetwall in his greenhouse run by his exhaust fan, thats how mine works too, dual stage stat 1st kicks on cooler, second kicks on fan, done deal. You wouldn't want to just push air through it and not exhaust it...wouldn't get a good air exchange plus it wouldn't cool that well.

Andrew, your cooler is fine for your greenhouse, a wet wall would be impractical for your ghouse. Not enough room.

As for the partitioning deal, I think it would be a good idea! Save your money! Save heat! The temperate plants should do just fine, perhaps increase shading in the winter so the photoperiod is a little more "natural" for them.

Up here i grow everything together all the time. The only difference I do for the Sarracenia is place them on the ground where it is colder. Water them 1 time a month approx....some even dry out...thats about it!

Any other questions?
 
  • #11
hmmm OK. Well, unless you totally separate the greenhouse and put independent systems in the greenhouse then I don;t think your going to be able to accomplish what your looking for. You can solve the lighting issue by removing the shade cloth during winter. I will more than likely remove mine. That will increase the lighting. What is wrong with keeping the plants that go dormant outdoors. Then you only have to worry about the ones you want to keep growing? You would be able to keep the temps right for growth and with the shade cloth removed they should get enough light. It is going to be less than sumer, but would save from having to use lights. The only time growers use lights here is when they are getting an orchid to flower perfect for a show or picture. They use a HO light to get the plant to turn all its flowers to the light. That is how they get the phals in magazines to have all the blooms facing one direction on an arching spike. I don't think you should need the extra light just for growth, and since you say that you rarely freeze then what is wrong with building a small cold frame outside for your dormant plants? Then you can use those vent openers to lift the lid on the cold frame, but it would close at night or when it got real cold? I dunno these are just suggestions. I leave my sarrs and things that go dormant outside year round with no cover, but that is me too.

What is the min temp you want to run? I stay around 55 to 60 with mine.

I hope I gave you some suggestion anyway. Dunno how much good though. To achive everything you want though I think your going to have to run two setups set to different things. Since your trying to accomidate for two different growing conditions. Now you may be able to do it if your willing to compromise on cooler temps for the nepenthes so your temperates can still go to sleep. Other than that I am out of ideas.
 
  • #12
Nepg- Sounds pretty basic, thanks. I've done some talking with Tony too and I think I've got a pretty good idea as of what needs to go on here, with what I've read here and talking with him.
As far as the heater goes- NO it is not vented. The heater runs on propane and is rated for inside your home use. So I dont' see where there will be a problem. More than enough air should be exchanging. If it does start to get low on oxygen, it will shut off as a human safety. But i really really doubt that will ever happen. Since air is always comming in the swamp cooler and exiting the top of the g/h through some small openings.

Jb- you may be confused by what I ment for using the light... I was talking about extending the day length... Not adding more light. Even with the shade cloth, the g/h gets plenty of light, for the length of the day. I was asking if the tropical plants would be happier with a longer photo period. It seems most people don't bother with that.. So I may skip it this winter and mess with it in a future season when I don't have heating to figure out :0)

So at this point here are the 2 options in my head (dont' know which i'll try first)
1) leave temperate plants outside since the weather is right, and they dont' nessasaraly require the humidity levels that they require while in growth.
2) partition the g/h with plastic. Temperate plants will be on the side with the swamp cooler, a few slits cut in this plastic so air can reach the tropical side for cooling durring the days when it still gets hot. But at night with no circulation, the plastic should "close" making most of the heat stay on the tropical side. My fogging system is overhead, so that will automatically humidify both sides. This devision I think will also alow the tropical side to be warmer durring the day, since it will not be directly open to the side with the swamp cooler. (Thermostat for the cooler is set to it's lowest posistion in the winter to help plants go dormant)

So thanks to everyone that have given their views (here and in IM/PM)
Andrew
 
  • #13
Good luck. I am glad you have some different situations to try.
 
  • #14
Regarding your question of photoperiod, how far north are you? We have several members from the SF area and further south that report success growing tropicals in windows, so I imagine that the light in Arizona is probably adequate. As for your temperate plants, I understand that you can maintain dormancy by providing less water, if the seasonal variation in temperature and photoperiod isn't dramatic enough, but it might not hurt to curtain off the tropicals with the heater anyways. What's a roll of polyvinyl tarp, anyways - like $6? I think it's worth doing if you don't mind the trip to the hardware store. I don't have a big, well-equipped greenhouse myself so it's not like I have much experience in this area, but the way I see it, you have a perfectly good greenhouse that's nowhere near full; you might as well put it to good use.
~Joe
 
  • #15
Well thats ok as long as you have a convective venting situation going on.
 
  • #16
Jb- you may be confused by what I ment for using the light... I was talking about extending the day length...

Hooray! Andrew has achieved diety status and can change the length of daylight itself!!! We must lavish him with gifts of plants or we will anger him and he will shorten our photo-periods!

smile_n_32.gif


Sorry , couldn't resist!
Happy Halloween!
 
  • #17
Just like using my 1000psi fogger I have the ability to change the humidity level and hurricane frequency in the northern hemisphere. ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY ADNEDARN!!!! hehehe
 
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