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Temperate bog soil

Lil Stinkpot

Lucky Greenhorn
I have quite an infestation of earthworms, so once all my Sarrs go dormant, I'm re-bogging my bog. It's HUGE, let me tell you, @ approximately 100 gallons. Erm, probably plus some.

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While I am at it, I'd like some input on what I should put in the soil. I would like to add more sand this time, more than 60%, if advisable. I also would like to find some things to add in to more closely replicate the soil found under wild Sarracenia and Dionaea. What kind of soil is out there? What's in it? CAN I replicate it? Should I?

I also need to pay very close attention to the bottom two feet (yes, TWO FEET) of soil. I currently have a simple 50/50 mix of sand & peat down there. Should I change it? To what? I think mostly sand ought to do it. Someone brought up the question about the soil going anoxic. Is that a problem, and how can I prevent it? Would adding lots of lava rock, pumice or perlite help?



What's in YOUR soil?

Any and ALL input is welcome, and appreciated!
 
I think that a top layer of LFS, followed by peat, followed by sand & peat would mimic nature, somewhat. I'm just not sure what thickness of each. Maybe your local USDA or USGS has a profile of soils?
 
Hi Lil Stinkpot
If you are changing the medium I would go for either a 50/50 mix of peat and sand and or perlite, I tend to use perlite as it keeps the mix 'open' and allows air into the roots, but I know a lot of people dont like perlite because of its whiteness. Having said that you could always put a layer of sphagnum or pure peat over it to cover it. otherwise if you can get lots of sphagnum, mix that with sand and peat to give a good useable mix.
It will be difficult to replicate 'wild' soils in small containers such as this, but Sarrs are found in bogs frequently populated by pine trees, so some pine needles or pine bark may be advantageous, and will keep the acidity high.
How deep is the container? if its well over sixtteen inches, I would consider putting inverted buckets with holes in, or old plastic pots or other inert things in the bottom, to create a resevoir of water for the medium to absorb when the season gets dry.
If the medium isn't too old and knackered, you could always seive it to get the worms out and re use it
either to mix in with the new mix or for potting other plants.
Have you got and drain holes anywhere in the container? These will help from reducing your mix to a mush.

Hope this helps
Cheers
Steve
 
Would a CA USGS office have the files on East Coast soils? I guess I can go find an office and ask. I was hoping someone here who's been out there would be able to give a few pointers.



The container is over two feet deep. I can try adding a couple inverted 1gal terra cotta pots. At the very least, they'll save me a couple bags worth of soil.

There are two drain holes; one at the "high water mark", the highest I'll allow the water to be, and one big threaded drain at the bottom. I won't use that one unless I absolutely must- it's recessed, and very near impossible to get sand out of the threads once it gets in. Right now, it's clean. I can drill another drain a few inches down and cork it during the summer, when it's hard to keep the water IN. Will that help?

The worms are red wrigglers, and while sifting may remove most of the adults, it won't remove the babies and eggs. The soil that's in there right now is new, mixed last fall, but now contaminated by worms, their eggs and their *ahem* nutrients. The soil is ruined, and it stinks. I will put it in the next batch of compost, and use it to "fluff" up the veggie garden.

The use of pine needles is attractive, I've been toying with the idea for quite some time. We have lots of pine trees around, getting some needles won't be a problem.
 
You should talk to Ozzy or Phil since they've restored or relocated plants from natural habitat.

There are plenty of in situ photos of Dionaea growing in Sphagnum moss.
 
The CP around where I live seem to grow in almost pure sand, the rest of the soil seems to consist of broken down plant matter.


Keep in mind though, that the bog here doesn't seem to have and sphag in it at all.
 
A little birdie flew in with some secret messages, and gave me a few pointers. :jester:
He has the same tub I have, and suggested I try filling the bottom with a coarse inert media, leaving only the top third filled with a premium mix. I will also try to utilize the drain that comes with the tub, and empty the tub periodically.

We were up in the hills visiting a friend, and I was able to acquire a huge bag of free pine needles. I'll try chopping some up and adding them to the mix.

I think I want a 1 to 2 inch top layer of sand to help with rain splattering. It may also help keep the carpet moss away.



But first I gotta BUY The stuff! :-O
 
What's this inert stuff you talk about? ;)
 
another easy idea for filling up space: fill a bunch of plastic containers/bottles (1 gallon H2O or whatever) with water, seal them and just set them in the bottom of the tub.
Are the earthworms a bad thing in the bog? they don't harm the CPs in anyway as far as I know do they?
I have found for my bogs that a soil made up of peat, LFS, perlite, sand & small bark works great--heavy on the peat & sand. I go by the idea that in the wild, bog soil is made up of a lot of different things.
 
  • #10
Is there anyway you could relocate the bog? Seems to me worms will just crawl up and infest it again. Could you elevate it on bricks? Maybe this would help?
 
  • #11
I find that worms don't like mixes that contain alot of coarse sand....they do like mixes that have LFS in them though.
 
  • #12
Is there anyway you could relocate the bog? Seems to me worms will just crawl up and infest it again. Could you elevate it on bricks? Maybe this would help?

*Ahem.* ;) The bog is almost three feet high, counting the layer of giant bricks. :p The worms got in because I wasn't being careful with what I put in. The worms were in the potted plants, and I failed to rinse each completely before putting them in the bog. All it takes is one bad apple, blech!

We can't move it, anyways. Completely filled, it weighs approximately a ton, or so we calculated. Besides, it's in a GREAT spot, right in the middle of the patio. Nuh uh, not budging. :-O





8bug4fun, worms put nutrients into the soil, that's why they're revered by gardeners around the world-- except us! You can tell a worm infested pot- it smells rank, powerfully rank, and the peat is all blobbed at the soil surface where the worms leave it. The added nutrients poison most CPs, though there are a couple exceptions I've seen. Don't let them in your Sarrs! Or Dionaea, or Drosera, or Utricularia, or....
 
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  • #13
Ok. I've got a solution for you: Flood your bog. Dispose of the worms, and leave it like that for a few days to kill the eggs!

Naughty Naughty Naughty! How...why! Oh well. Now we know!

*Ahem.* ;) The bog is almost three feet high, counting the layer of giant bricks. :p The worms got in because I wasn't being careful with what I put in. The worms were in the potted plants, and I failed to rinse each completely before putting them in the bog. All it takes is one bad apple, blech!

We can't move it, anyways. Completely filled, it weighs approximately a ton, or so we calculated. Besides, it's in a GREAT spot, right in the middle of the patio. Nuh uh, not budging. :-O





8bug4fun, worms put nutrients into the soil, that's why they're revered by gardeners around the world-- except us! You can tell a worm infested pot- it smells rank, powerfully rank, and the peat is all blobbed at the soil surface where the worms leave it. The added nutrients poison most CPs, though there are a couple exceptions I've seen. Don't let them in your Sarrs! Or Dionaea, or Drosera, or Utricularia, or....
 
  • #14
:-D Oh, if only it were that easy! Worms don't need to breathe, not like we do. Oh, they come up when it rains, but only long enough to mate, then they go back under. They do it that way 'cause they won't dry out when it's raining. ;)

I've had it flooded for about a month now, and the whole rainy season last year; they're still here. Blech!

I will be using more sand this time, with about an inch or two of nearly pure sand on top, depending on location within the bog. I'll be using play sand, not quite as sharp as I'd like, but certainly not soft! We get good sand here. :-D

---------- Post added at 01:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 AM ----------

Oh, yeah. While I'm "re-bogging," I'm go na have a "blast" washing off ALL the plants. Even the climber, the creepers and the branchy-rhizomy spreaders. Oh, what fun, out in 'da gar-dun!
 
  • #15
sometimes u can find a metal rod to hook up to a car battery wich will zap them bringing them to surface, not sure if it will hurt plants or not but its an idea
 
  • #16
sometimes u can find a metal rod to hook up to a car battery wich will zap them bringing them to surface, not sure if it will hurt plants or not but its an idea

Good idea! Metal rod? No problem! Where I work, we throw out (recycle) dozens each day. But you are right, I also don't know what effect that will have on my plants, or my battery.


:-O These are all great ideas on keeping worms out & removing the odd stray that sneaks in, but the peat has already been broken down, the soil is ruined. I will try these removal techniques if I find worm frass in the new mix. It ought to be much easier to spot, because I'll have a layer of sand on top. ;)



What I'm looking for, mostly, is ideas on additives, beyond sand, peat and perlite, that the plants might like. I still haven't gotten ahold of anyone who's been out digging/researching Sarrs, but I can only blame myself for being lazy there.
 
  • #17
Yeah you're right about flooding. I looked in some of my grow table pots today...found like 8 worms in 5 pots :-O. I just hope MY bog is not infected....LOL! It doesn't stink at all, however.

I came upon another idea. How about taking all the plants out and turning a bog into a desert for a while :-D That ought to do it. Tis what I'll need to do if I find worms in my bog. Easier than "re-bogging"

I'm already battling mealy bugs (which after cutting off all the sarra pitchers I now have the upper hand (they can hide in pitchers))

I guess I'll need to kill every worm I see...and move the pots around. Does anyone know how to kill worms BEFORE a serious infestation occurs leaving the soil useless? I can lower the water level till there is almost nothing, maybe the worms will creep under the pots (has happened before) and then I can get em easy?

I also (these are regular earthworms) found 2 egg cases and destroyed them. Looks like small pills. I also found a third empty one...rats.

Anyway, Some of my plants are in the same boat :blush: . How do you kill these critters?

---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 PM ----------

I was reading and found that earthworms don't like PH below 4.5, they inhabit wet places, and are killed by insecticides containing carbaryl.

Hmmm.
 
  • #18
Heres some links that you may find usefull, I've not tried them myself as I have never had a problem in my bogs. The Oxford croquet link suggests that worm dont like acid soil which is just what carnivorous plants love. Have you tried a PH test to see how acid the soil is? it could be that you may need to do nothing in your new bog if it is acid enough.
Also flooding should do the job according to the all about worms link.
Try some dilure vinegar in a pot of soil with a worm in, as a test to see if the worm runs away.
Let us know how it goes
Cheers
Steve
http://www.allaboutworms.com/how-to-repel-not-kill-earthworms
http://www.oxfordcroquet.com/care/worms/index.asp
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/lawns/msg0512593927540.html
 
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  • #19
I gotta change it, it's two years (or so) old, and is breaking down due to the digestive activities of the little buggers. Besides, I believe I do have a problem with the lower foot or two of the bog gone anoxic-- toxic to plants, I've read. In order to fix the problem, I need to dig it all up and put something else, some kind of inorganic filler, in the bottom. I have plans and recipes drawn out; once I re-draw them and make them look nice, I'll post them.


SDCPS, I wish I could! But where am I going to put all those plants? We have a tiny fridge. Being the beginning of winter, that soil won't dry out until spring, then I'd have to wait ages longer. Worms cam go dormant, too, if things get dry. They form a little chamber and wait it out. If you have worms under your pots, then you have even more in them. Letting it dry would encourage the worms in the tray to hide under the pots, but won't lure out the ones in the pots, and eventually the tray worms will join the potted worms.


Steve, I am taking steps to ensure the next batch is more acid. The batch in there now is messed up; it's no good now. None of the plants made a single pitcher, all the flytraps died, and most if the 'dews are gone.

---------- Post added at 08:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 AM ----------

I have it set up where I can install a small pump if I want. It'll be neat!
 
  • #20
I would expect to change the media every couple years anyway, as it will give the plants a new, fresh environment. Something nature does ...well... "naturally"! It cleans itself! You can't do that in a closed, micro environment you create, so you have to do it manually.

If nothing else, the worms brought attention to something that needed doing anyway. ???

Don't look at it as a bad thing, or a disgusting job to have to do. You are refreshing their environment, and giving them a new lease on life. This is a wonderful opportunity to show care and tending to their needs!

We vacuum, change the sheets on our beds, throw out the garbage, paint the siding or house trim, and even change the oil in our car. (Well, at least most of us do!) And redoing the "soil" in a pot or "bog garden" is no different.

This isn't a sewage pit or garbage dump, to ignore and neglect! It is an important part of the life-source for these plants! It takes work to provide plants with the environment they need. (Unless you are one of those here lucky enough to live where nature itself does most or all of the work for you!) But seeing as your bog is artificial and not one naturally occurring in your backyard, then it will need regular care to keep it in good shape.

Even without worms pooping in your bog, the peat and other materials in it will decompose, break down and/or produce "waste" products. As we water our plants regularly, give them light and possibly dormancy regularly, it is also good to replace your planting media regularly. Even though that "regular" period may be years apart, in a closed system it will need to be done.
Hey, it beats having to change a litter box or taking it out for a walk/dump every day! :-D

Good luck!

PS: You were right to ask about redoing the whole thing, as simply removing or killing off the worms won't make things right. It is time to "re-pot"! And I am betting your plants will show their gratitude after you do. (Just take your time, perhaps throw the plants into buckets of decent water/soaking wet peat while doing all the real "work", and take care with them to prevent much transplant shock, and it will be great!)

Be sure to post pics next spring!
 
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