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In ground bod garden?

  • #21
Many containers available.. Flowerpots should be UV stablized so if those 20gallon things were designed for plants, putting them in the sun should not be a problem. If they are the things I am thinking of with the rope handles and are simply a utility container. They will not handle the sun and will get brittle eventually. Whisky barrels would look nice ;> I still think though without rain and a bunch of big plants they will need watering more than once a week. Maybe one of those kiddie pools?? It would be big enough that it should go a week if you topped it up all the way with water (I think).

On the subject of wintering outdoors in a container above ground. Don't do it. The plants are highly unlikely to survive even if you piled the mulch on. IMO

Tony
 
  • #22
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] If they are the things I am thinking of with the rope handles and are simply a utility container.
 yep, that's what i was thinking about...
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] Whisky barrels would look nice
 agreed.  now to find some really large ones, not the little 14" ones i see at home depot.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]On the subject of wintering outdoors in a container above ground.  Don't do it.
 that's what i'm thinking too.  already starting to think about how i'd move them, lol!  

thanks for the insight tony.  everyone, if you have any ideas or thoughts or tips, post em up!

thanks,
tech...
 
  • #23
I think your only real viable option if your going to container garden them outside. And still have the size needed to hold sufficient water/soil so they can go extended periods without watering. And not deal with moving massive containers in the Fall. Is dig the plants up in the fall and fridge store them.

You MIGHT get away with one of those kidie pools sunken in the ground. That would at least give your bog some protection and thermal insulation around the sides and bottom during the Winter. You would still have to mulch but it would be much better protected from freezing/thawing and temperature extreames subjected to an above ground container.

Tony
 
  • #24
Inground bogs aren't for everybody. You can use planters. I get a brand from my local hardware store. They are the 8", 12", and 16" size and you can purchase relatively deep drip trays for them which is great or improvise. I have planters sitting in (new and unused) cat litter boxes to avoid having to water them everyday.  I have other small planters in oblong baking dishes and I have also used pyrex baking dishes as water trays. Your wife will probably hate me for this but you most probably have a myriad of "trays" right in your own kitchen.  The manufacturer of the planters I use is Duraco, http://www.duraco.com/ and I bet you can contact them and order bulk to get reduced pricing. I used a dolly to move my planters in the garage.  I am too small to physically move the larger ones myself.  I then had my husband hoist them up onto shelving placed in front of a huge window. The few plants I had in them seem as if they're going to make it but I could be wrong. The next 60 days will tell. There are many who have patio planters that move them in their garages in my region. One comment, a winter drought can be just as bad on plants as a summer drought. My garage temps are maintained at just under 40F throughout the season. Unfortunately, the air is very dry. If you decide to go this route, you will have to make sure the medium remains damp until the plants can be moved back outside the following spring.  I did this by touching the soil and if it was crispy, I added water to the drip tray and let it wick up. I am in Zone 5 and we are prone to extended periods of sub zero temps. I am relatively sure any CPs left in a planter out on a patio with or without mulch in this zone would be history. On the other hand, I think there are zones further south where CPs in planters might just make it by being left out.
 
  • #25
Ok, I have a question that fits in well in this topic, maybe.
Maybe someone that knows more about the soil requirements for CPs can let me know if this would works.
I have an area in my yard that consists of this soil type. Would it be possible I could plant CPs directly into it, and they would do well?

Ac – Adrian Mucky Peat, Deep

The Adrian series consists of deep, very poorly drained, organic soils that are underlain by sand. Ground water is at or near the surface throughout the year. These soils formed in sedges and marsh grasses that are encroached on in places by tamarack and shrubs.
In a representative profile the surface layer is black mucky peat 12 inches thick. Very dark brown and black muck is between depths of 12-36 inches. The substratum is olive-grey sand.
Adrian soils are moderately rapidly permeable. They have high available water capacity and low natural fertility.
 
  • #26
What is your potential hydrogen?
How many hours of sun does this site receive per day?
Do you or have you ever used any chemicals on your lawn?
What state are you in?  Do you know your Zone?

Edited to note that you are in central Wisconsin which is a Hardiness Zone 4B most probably.

Also, by any chance is that area denoted on your survey as being wetlands?
 
  • #27
What is your potential hydrogen?
-I have no clue. How would I find that out?

How many hours of sun does this site receive per day?
-It recieves full sun from sunrise till mid afternoon, and partial sun till sundown.

Do you or have you ever used any chemicals on your lawn?
-No, It is hardly a lawn tho, very sparse grass.
-*edit* Atleast not in the past 25 years

What state are you in? Do you know your Zone?
- Yep, Wisconsin, and 4B.

Also, by any chance is that area denoted on your survey as being wetlands?
- No. The circumstances surrounding the lake I live on are quite unique in Wisconsin. The Area is around 20' by 50'
 
  • #28
Plant. I recommend sarracenia purpurea ssp. purpurea. Drosera rotundifolia and d. anglica. For grins, throw in a few d. linearis too. They can all handle the cold well. For pinguicula, p. vulgaris can handle it, and p. villosa. I do believe pinguicula macroceras ssp. macroceras might be able to handle that kind of cold. You can only try, and it is better than doing nothing. I will be waiting to hear how it goes, and how it grows.
 
  • #29
I am not in Bugs' league but I think you are going to have problems with the underwater conditions regardless of the pH. You can get a basic pH test kit right here at JungleSupply.com above.

D. anglica (does have a very short growing season though)
D. intermedia
P. villosa (I want one of these so if you find it let me know)
P. vulgaris (I want one of these so if you find it let me know)
S. purpurea ssp. purpurea
S. psittacina
S. minor var. okee (other minor species would not be good)
S. flava (probably all of them)

I'm thinking some of these can not only survive but might do quite well in obscenely wet conditions.

From what I've learned, you'd probably want to stay away from rubra and most minor. I don't think they can handle a no drainage environment so their buds would most probably rot.
 
  • #30
The LauraZ5 might be right, but to know for sure, after the ph test, time to plant the locals. If they make it, experiment. You won't know if you don't try. I have had CP growing in situations vastly different from the norm, and they did well. (Suprised me!!!!!)
 
  • #31
S. rubra ssp is my "pace and wring hands plant". I seem to have many issues with transplanting those. I am learning they do not like a lot of water though. Probably damp not wet with a dousing every so often to flush. I don't know what my problem with those is but one of these days I am going to figure out why I have so many problems transplanting them. They hate me, I swear that's it.

You know Gawd_oOo, there are a few Utrics you could try in that type of an environment too. U. resupinata comes to mind and if you find where to buy one of those, let me know as that's one I'm looking for too. I'd also try U. macrorhiza as well as U. vulgaris.

This is going to sound somewhat outlandish but; if your area tests alkaline, you could raise the pH a tad by using vinegar. A Tblsp into a gallon of rainwater might make what ever CP you ultimately choose feel more at home. Hold at 6.5 and see how the plants you select fair. I know there are people out there who raise pH by using rhodo and azalea products but I'd much prefer to go the route of adding white pine needles and a sprinkle here and there of vinegar in rain water.
 
  • #32
Thanx for all the input. Soil is acidic, don't know to what extent. I am actually going to be bringing home a water sampling kit from school in the next 2 weeks, so I can do a pH test with that. And I have an entire line of white pine betwen the lot line so they shouldn't be a problem either.

The site is only very wet during spring, in summer and fall the water table is 2-4 inches below the surface, there are a few spots that dip down and have standing water year round.

It'll be fun, I'll snap some pics and show everything I do to prep the site, through to completion.
 
  • #33
Once you go soggy... you never go back!  

I've got some standing water around here in a clearing and am definitely deliberating over how I might be able to improve upon the existing vegetation.  I'm also planning a rain garden now.  I probably won't get to it for over a year as there are too many incomplete projects around here as it is but I see this gutter that is emptying out into an area where I could easily divert it just a few feet more to get it to go right where I want it. Now I wonder which CPs I could get going in a rain garden as opposed to an actual bog?  Gotta love soggy gardening!

Will you plant CPs exclusively or a mix in that area?  If you are going for a mix, send me your name and address as I have some native goodies for you. Can't wait to see your photos.
 
  • #34
I'll probably go for a mix. I'd like to dig out a small pond (frog pond) could throw some aquatic Utricularia in it.

I just brought the test kit home today, so I'll get to do my tests tomorrow.
What soil tests are important?
pH - what range am I looking for.
Also I was thinking of testing some of the water that is standing in the area to make sure it isn't to mineral rich.
 
  • #35
I am thinking the pH range in your bog would be best somewhere around 6.5-7.0 in my opinion however this varies considerably based on region and species planted so best to get more input from others. The pH range in a herp/fish pond should be more toward neutral. Nothing kills off herps and fish faster than rapid pH changes. pH fluctuates throughout the day and also based on other factors so if possible try hard to test at the same time of day when you do your tests. I find my wildest fluctuations occur in the fall because of oak leaves dropping in ponds and after a heavy rain. Sometimes I adjust the pH a tad, sometimes I leave it be. Depends on what the averages were the week before.  

I saw photos you posted of your property. Beautiful, absolutely beautiful and when can we all move in with you? Just teasing. If you dig/connect a herp pond to/in the area you are going to use as a bog, you will most assuredly have a logistical nightmare stabilizing the pH in the pond. I am pretty sure the water will never be clear which bothers many people.  No matter what type of hi-tech bio filters or skimmers you connect to a pond in that area, you will be very frustrated and I'm thinking you will rip all of your hair out within one season and be willing to accept that 4th corner over there at a funny farm with me, April, and Rattler.  Please check into positioning a pond at a higher elevation closer to your house and as a separate entity from that low area. Other than pH headaches, the big concern is that knock down gorgeous picture perfect lake back behind your home. I'll step right out on a limb and suggest that you really need to seriously consider going a 100% native.  I am relatively sure a probability for "seeding" your lake exists as well as any waters that flow downstream from your lake with any plant and animal material you might place in a pond or a bog regardless of where they are situated in your backyard. It's the proximity of that lake to the area in which you will be working that is sending up red flags. The potential for seasonal flooding may be very real. In a situation such as that which was described above and that which I saw in your photographs in the other thread, one might want to weigh the benefits of using native plants exclusively whether it be a CP, bog, woodland, prairie, or marginal species. I know you never mentioned adding fish but most people can’t pass up the pretty goldies and within a year or so, they’ve generally added fish from PetSmart or WalMart- I know I did. They always seem like such a natural to add to a herp pond.  Exotic carp and/or exotic turtles, as well as any other non indigenous fish or herps, really should not be used either as whatever would be stocked in a new pond would be quite capable of ending up in that lake. Point in context is what happened here by me the spring of '04. That was the second hundred year flood in 10 years and the third 100 year flood in 15 years. Contents of people's bogs and ponds were washing into the Des Plaines River as well as into naturally occurring wetlands. The Des Plaines River was spreading all that non indigenous flora and fauna into other bodies of water as it swelled and spread. The Des Plaines River is a natural waterway not so unlike the creek on my property that flows down and into the Des Plaines River. They are connected so they are one. In a perfect world; accidental discharges of pet goldfish/koi, red eared sliders, and non indigenous plant materials don't end up in natural waterways. Sadly, we don't live in a perfect world and rains from the heavens often thwart our best efforts to eliminate any and all possibilities of introducing exotic species to natural bodies of water.  Needless to say numerous species of both plants and animals were unintentionally introduced to an already taxed watershed because many people didn’t know any better.  

Building a pond from scratch in a different location and at a higher elevation with an EPDM liner and the right equipment will be considerably easier to maintain, more herp friendly, and will have less potential of negatively impacting the environment than taking what appears to be the path of least resistance. I'm writing from actual experience here and no need for you to get hit by a Mack truck like I did and have the Army Corps of Engineers crawling all over you while holding an aerial view of your property evidencing disturbances within 100' of water.  I have two natural ponds on my property and numerous others that I created either for herps or for my Wakins.  Wakins are a non indigenous fish but that particular pond is at an elevation of 786’ above sea level. If water gets to that area, my entire community will be nothing but chimneys poking up through waves as that would be a flood of Biblical proportions. That is my only pond that has non natives in it and it is right by my front door and the fish were gifts- ugh.

Here's a great book you might want to consider picking up at your local library- Lakescaping For Wildlife and Water Quality by Carrol L Henderson, Carolyn J Dindorf and Fred J Rozumalski. If you are interested and can’t get your hands on a copy, I will send you my copy and you can just return it when you are finished. I recently recommended this book to somebody else and it addresses many issues that will confront you.

You and I are within 100 miles of each other. It would be my pleasure to help you with both non CP plants and critters for your very worthwhile project. Plants I would be more than happy to mail to you- my treat. Critters you would have to come and pick up or meet me somewhere in Milwaukee to get as I can't bear to ship a live fish or critter.  And, 95% of what I have added here is native non CP species so that's what I have to share. Please take me up on this offer if you go the route of a pond as there is nobody out there with whom I can share anything as I pretty much have but only one CP of each listed on my grow list so those are out to share for a few years.
 
  • #36
My yard has very little elevation change to it, at most 2 feet other then the small hill that the house occupies. And yes the area does flood, last 2 years it was 1 foot under water after snow melt/spring storms, this year no flooding on the snow melt, and we haven't gotten much rain yet. Most years it doesn't flood that badly tho.

I wasn't thinking of a pond big enough for fish, just enough to keep standing water for a few aquatic Bladderworts.

With the harsh winters I was thinking I would need to go with native CPs anyway. Anything else would go in seasonally and be pulled for wintering in an area they could survive (indoors).

Here is a list of CP species that are native to my area.

Utricularia cornuta Michx
Utricularia geminiscapa Benj
Utricularia gibba L
Utricularia intermedia Hayne
Utricularia minor L.
Utricularia purpurea Walter
Utricularia resupinata B.D.Greene ex Bigelow
Utricularia vulgaris L.

Drosera intermedia Hayne
Drosera linearis Goldie
Drosera rotundifolia L.

Sarracenia purpurea L. subsp. purpurea

Now I have no Idea where I could go and buy any of those, but they are all native to the area, most within 10 miles of my house.

I would love help with any of those and with non cp native species.

Saw a really cool bog plant friday when I was out hiking, I thought they where Sarracenia purpurea, until I found one that was alittle more developed then the rest, and it had a yellow ball in what I thought was pitchers, and spade like leaves starting to form around the 'flower'(?). I am going to go back and snap some pictures as soon as I get home early enough one day.
 
  • #37
Looks as if you and I have a considerable amount in common.  Knock out the P. vulgaris for my area and add in D. filliformis and you've basically got my list of what is native. Good, this is very good. Please go and find a member named agughes and get her to give you some local genotype cardinal flower. Extremely showy and beneficial to wildlife. Ask her for some of her Virginia Waterleaf too as that is actually native to our area.  Then I will add some things in for that area. I have Lizard's Tail as well as Blue Flag Iris.  Those are nice staples particularly when one is going to fill in with CPs. I like the mix because those species will attract insects that your plants will find tasty. Yum yum!  

Yes, getting the plant material is difficult.  Many people trade but when you are just starting up like me and you, we almost have to purchase or we'll feel guilty as the people around here are ummm... more generous than you could ever imagine.  The other thing you can do is check the trade forums here and sometimes you can run into people offering plants you want for postage.  Go for it, I have and I have received gorgeous and healthy plants. I have sources I can share with you for fill in purchases. Does it have to be a local genotype?  If it doesn't, you'll have a better shot at finding species that will work for you.  Oh oh oh, join the ICPS.  They allow members to buy seed for $1 a pack and they have a decent selection. Most of my seed came from different sources though only because I know quite a few native plant people. That is how I am actually going at it for my property. I am germinating seed while keeping my eyes open to buy plants.

You can still do a pond. You would just need to increase the elevation. Don't give up, I didn't.
 
  • #38
I may not need help with plants after all. Going tomorrow morning to get a job working for a company that grows native wetland plants. A person from the same program as me works there and said that they are looking for one more person. Pay doesn't sound that good, but if I get an employee discount that will more then make up for it.
 
  • #39
Have you gone soggy yet?

Congrtulations on landing that job!  Good going!
 
  • #40
S. rubra certainly are the most temprapmental species but I do love my gulfensis
 
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