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U.S. National Sarracenia Collection

  • #161
Greetings one last time before the weekend. I couldn't wait till monday!

Casper, thanks for taking the lead here. It will really help focus the energy. Firstly there is one thing I'd like to address. I think the statments that I have to support the idea of a decentralized collection. The costs and work involved in such an endevor might be something to think about 7 -10 years down the line. For now, I think the proposal that Noah talked about is the route to go.

you asked for goals. Here goes some thoughts. Feel free to add timelines as you see fit.

1. Have all interested participants in this project submit an inventory of plants that they have in their collection that have accurate locality data. Site specific I think will be insane to track, because people are going to have plants from all sorts of places all within a few miles of eachother. Think of many of the roadside sites people have plants from. For instance I was given a plant that was collected back in the 70's from a road side bog in Brunswick Co. It was a purp. Is a purp from that site on Rt 130 worth any noteriety than a purp 5 miles up the road, not likely. So I really think that County resolution in this collection is all that is necessary for most plants. Appendix 1, well we'll cross that bridge when it comes.

2. A committe should be formed to evaluate, submissions, code and enter them into a data base and issue appropriate tags to the grower.

3. Then, a list of growers and what they are growing should be made available with contact info (email) so that growers can swap plants.

4. Each year, growers of NC (national collection plants) should be encouraged to properly created seed from these plants and submit them to a central center for distribution. I'd like to the ICPS do that, but we'll have to wait on that.

5. The person running the seed bank should submit each year a list of people and what seeds were given out. As each person has plants that reach maturity, the will have to make contact with the NC manager and register their plants.

4 more cents.

Carl
 
  • #162
Hi Carl, I am certianly willingly to provide growing and propagation space. Seems Sarracenia are weeds on the floor of my 22 ft long greenhouse, so I'm in.
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  • #163
Is it enough to only code species and county of origin?

I was taught (in classroom and in research) to code as much about samples as reasonably possible.  If someone knows exactly where a plant (or its predecessor) originated and can read latitude and longitude off a topo map or use GPS or whatever, such data are easy enough to code.  Maybe even decide how to code "ditch next to Rt 160, 3.2 miles south of Sarracenia Industrial Park Rd."  And it's easy enough to indicate when more detailed data aren't available and the plant is just from somewhere in Harrison County.

Two plants can be the same species from the same county, but one plant might turn out to be from an upland fen and the other from an a lowland marsh.  With the power of GIS and many data layers available to play with, someone could use more precise locational data to, for instance, identify and compare some upland-adapted S. leucophyllas or something.  But only if we code whatever data are available.

We also need to think about the basis for separating genotypes in the collection.  We're visual beasts and sub-divide Sarracenia species on the basis of color & shape.  Would we try to code those distinctions, using all the wonderful red-tube, copper top, heavily veined, giant, etc. kind of names?  If so, a list of approved names has to be developed up front and the naming rules specified.

In the end, there are different ways of describing differences within the Sarracenias.  Plants from three widely scattered populations, but maybe looking identical.  Different looking plants, but maybe originating from the same county.  Plants from habitats ranging from a near-Gulf marsh up to an upland fen, but maybe looking identical and originating in the same county.  Data to describe these differences might help in the future and the effort has to be made to define, compile, and code them.
 
  • #164
Valid points, everyone of them. This kind of thinking is what we are looking for everyone. We need others to come forward and share other ideas. We are moving along, but can always use fresh and new ideas. Keep'em coming!!
 
  • #165
In order to "preserve" the genetic material, perhaps the issue of seed production should be addressed. There are several ways to look at the issue. First, selfing a plant would be detrimental. By this I mean pollinating a flower with it's own pollen or crossing two flowers of the exact same clone. This leads to weaker plants and lower seed production. Consequently, plants have evolved to cross-pollinate with other plants, leading to more diverse and adaptive plants. Crossing two plants from the same location might be a better alternative. Not only would stronger, more diverse plants come from such a cross but, this is a cross that could have occurred in nature.
Some "purists" might argue that the seedlings that grow and reach maturity in cultivation, might not be the same seedlings that would grow and reach maturity in nature. The environmentally selective forces that influence these plants are different in both cases.
Someone has addressed the idea of centralizing all the plants from this effort. I'm not sure what resources are available but, as I've mentioned previously, finding natural habitat might be considered. Plants could be maintained at a location and the only efforts needed would be a yearly burn. The problems involve finding suitable habitat, purchasing it, and preparing it for introduction. If renting greenhouse space is potentially an alternative, the costs might compete with purchasing land.
Just a few ideas worth considering,
imduff
 
  • #166
I have been trying to follow the progress as best I can, trying to catch up on the latest posts, etc.  I am getting lost.  
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 It is great to see all the help that has come forward.  I am excited about this project.  I would like to see it a bit more concise, I guess.  The poll topic is good & the fundraising auction is pretty clear.  I am wondering if a vote has been taken on a coordinator for this or is one scheduled?  
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 (Casper seems to be the only candidate & that's ok with me.  He would have my vote.)  This seems to be mostly a brainstorming topic so that's why I chose to post this here.  
I would suggest a new topic - perhaps pinned - where one could go to see just what assignments have been made.  Who is doing what
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 I would like to help but am unsure where my efforts could best be used.  Others seem pretty clear on what they're doing.  I don't grow cp's but maybe I could write a letter, do some research.  Anyone else feeling like this?  
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"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW--What a Ride!"
 
  • #167
I don't know if this has already been brought up but... What kind of filing system is the collection going to use to document all the plants?

I think that each plant should have a tag on it's plant lable similar to that of the hybrid abreviations.

For example: A s. minor in the collection would be tagged SM01, a flava SF01, and so on.

Then each plant species would have it's own file and in the file would be a document for each plant of that type in the collection. The document would specify where the plant came from and who contributed the original plant material and all that. All this info could be put into a computer program to be very easily looked up.

When it came time to distribute a plant to a collector a copy of the plant's document would be sent with the plant for the collector's filing as well.

What do you think? I don't know a whole lot about plant documentation but I just thought I'd put in my 2 cents.
 
  • #168
Mijako, That is a great idea. If anyone out there has the wherewithal to get ahold of Mijako and get this together in planning phase, that would be fantastic. Good idea, Mijako, I told you you had something to say. Thanks!!
 
  • #169
Anyone else have anymore suggestions??
 
  • #170
Um not a suggestion but I am looking forward to this.
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BTW, if you guys want a topic pinned just make it and say what you want then type please pin and one of the mods will do it for you.
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  • #171
Hi all.

With apologies to those who know me, let me introduce myself and why I'm here. I've been collecting CP for more years than I can remember, specialising always, first in Utrics and then Pings. For the latter, until late 2003, I was the UK National Collection Holder for the Pinguicula National Collection. (I admit to being a member of ICPS and its listserver group, which despite the comments of some in this discussion is an organisation that welcomes pure amatures such as myself as well as professional. I count the experienced and inexperienced, as well as professionals and fellow amatures amoungst my CP friends.)

Ordinarily I wouldn't think it necessary or relevant, but in this case I'll add that I'm a Business Analyst (or more accurately a professional Problem Solver) who has worked in the public and private sectors and with not-for-profit organisations. I am also an author, including of the Royal Horticultural Society's Wisley Handbook titled "Carnivorous Plants" (now out of print). I spent several years helping people of various backgrounds start new enterprises (businesses, charities, etc.)

Most importantly (probably), I am here because BUGWEED asked me to join. In fact, he asked me to read everything here and then comment! So I suppose that I should also add that I talk plainly, though hopefully with no intention to offend.

So, I have at least read the first 17 pages (did I really read 17 pages!) and I see energy - tons of it. It's very positive and I will return to that point.

But I am very very muddled. I see people volunteering yet without an indication of a role to volunteer to do. I see people appointed to positions without a statement that describes the responsibilities of the roles. I see names being discussed without a clear indication that you know why you are naming something. I say "you", because I see no clear boundary that says when a person "belongs" or what the "belong" to, so I do not know when "I" become part of what it is you are creating or how to tell who belongs and who does not! The point I am trying to make is that this presents a large risk and this risk also relates back to the energy I spoke of.

Your energy is clear. It abounds. But there's an odd thing about energy that every successful sportsman knows. Timing is everything. Spend your energy too early and you will not win the race, you will tire and be overtaken by others who conserved their stregth until the right moment. My concern here is that there is a risk that this wonderful idea (and I sincerely mean that) will burn out most of the people who are hungry to volunteer. The opportunity to participate is attracting volunteers before they can be assigned to anything and it is almost inevitable that many will tire. I know because I have actually owned a National Collection. I know first hand how hard it is to start, get approved, maintain approval, build the colection, gain support, maintain PR, etc.

Some of the comments in the preceeding 17 pages point at the need to organise or structure. You've done the check to see if there is enthusiasm - clearly there is. It's time to realise that that task is over. Bank the enthusiasm and promise to call on it in a structured way so as to best facilitate the contributors effort while maximising the effect of their contribution. Logic dictates that it's time to take a deep breadth, control the emotions and build a skeleton that will allow you be clear about what you are doing and where you need help. What I believe you actually need is not just a "proposal" (as has been mentioned) but a Business Proposal. It has to be of that standard if there is to be any chance of securing or identifying funds, people's time and other support (e.g. from media who can help promote what is being done).

Even 17 pages later, I still cannot clearly (if at all) define what it is you intend to do. Create a National Collection? What does that mean? Every National Collection is unique and has its own aims and limits. When you talk about deciding on a name, are you naming the organisation that will own the National collection, an organisation that will do something other than own the National Collection or perhaps are you attempting to name the National Collection itself? I do not know and I suspect you do not either.

By now I may be rapidly being labelled negative. However, in business the primary cause of failure is too much action, too little planning. Here everyone is shouting to be heard (the enthusiasm is wonderful and infectious) but with too little guidance and structure for anyone to be able to make good use of what is said. If people do not see their contribution making a difference, they eventually tire of contributing.

I say pause a while, to decide on the few roles that need definition and then fill those roles with people who can best perform them. The single biggest task at this stage must be to create the Business Proposal and theregfore to decide what sections it needsto contain and, MORE importantly the purpose for which it is being written (is it to put to people needed as volunteers, to use as a basis for seeking charitable status, to seek financial support, or what?)

Use the same pause to decide your processes. How will you gather what you need efficiently and effectively? Using a discussion forum to gather data is not (in my experience) particularly effective unless part of a very well defined process (because dicsussion fora are almost impossible to control!).

Who can do this? Well BUGWEED was I think nominated and then accepted the presidency - strange in as much as I'm not sure exactly what it is he is now president of (but I do actually believe his being president would be and is logical and just, if not entirely democratic!), so BUGWEED should probably define his initial team. It needn't be permanent, it just needs to iron out what the first steps are and who should drive them. (And just in case I've guessed wrong, if BUGWEED isn't a "he", my apologies for the assumption that he is!)

To my mind it's too early to form a not-for-profit organisation as you've no definition of why you need one, what it will do or what/who for (so any attempt will be turned down by the authorities - the application would normally be rigorously tested).

I think it was Barry who asked if you want to be a rogue organisation or not. Do you realise how critical this question is? If you are an organisation dedicated to supporting a National Collecton you CANNOT collect plants or seed except with written permission from accredited authorities or owners of the plants/land. You CANNOT risk owning any pant of dubious origin. You cannot allow a plant to be imported into the collection illegally (e.g. without declaration to Customs of crossing a border). You cannot risk breaching CITES (even though, if my time permits, I may tell you why CITES should be ignored - oh how I hope someone from CITES will be reading!!!).

But most of all, I end with the same advice I give all people new to the hobby of plant growing:- do not let my thoughts be the cause of delay or failure. I offer my thougts as my own personal views, based on my experience. I will not be offended if they are rejected and I remind all that every experienced grower can remember discovering someone else's advice on plants was wrong!

I haven't commented on each of the 17 pages I've so far read - I've left that for later because if you buy into my advice now, there are higher priorities.

I may say more when I see what reaction this gets! But please do understand that I support the idea (as much as I can understand what it is) and hope it eventually succeeds.

Cheers

Paul

 
  • #172
You have made some good points Paul. There are several of us doing research and setting things up behind the scenes, so what you read on this post isn't everything.
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Right now Casper is heading this up, with help from Bugweed and others. We are doing some pre-structure work, if that makes sense. Once we have figured out exactly where we are going and approximetally how we are going to get there, then we can set about building a structure that will be able to get us there.

Right now most of the work is going to research and organization. We are also testing the waters. We have found how much energy we have available to tap into, now we need to know the same with funds and leadership. But the energy is awesome. Every time a task needs to be done (ie research) someone is there and willing to do it, and that is great to see! If this continues throughout the project, we will do well. Otherwise, it will be a few of us trying to push the project through it's various stages after the others have left... but I hope that doesn't happen and doubt it will.

If you haven't yet go ahead and read some of the other topics in the National Sarracenia Collection forum so you can see what else is happening, or contact Casper to see how you can help do some of those things you see as so pertinent to the success of this project.
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cheers,

-noah
 
  • #173
The first (and maybe greatest) accomplishment will be to catalog what plants are already in friendly hands.  It's already becoming clear how it'll be done.  Details must be worked out and procedures must be refined, but it's happening.

The database is a map to a collection which requires no plants be taken from wild populations or even gathered together from growers.  A record of our already existing, but diffuse national collection will be quite an accomplishment by itself.  Even though many issues remain to be confronted for creating a capitol letter National Collection.  I can't contribute to the many accomplishments being made now
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, but hope to help in the near future.
 
  • #174
Ok, where do I start.

I live in New Orleans, it is Fat Tuesday (MARDI GRAS!!) day and I just waded through 5 million people to get to this computer.

I know I have been a tad scarce these last few days, but it is a very busy time for me.

I had an excellent conversation with Carl last night and I got some great insight. Right now, I am working on goals for our mission statement and business plan.

I know I have a lot of un-answered PM's and I apologize. My e-mail went from an adv. of 3-4 a day to at least 50 a day. I will respond to everyone as soon as I get some breathing room so please be patient.



Paul
 
  • #175
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The opportunity to participate is attracting volunteers before they can be assigned to anything and it is almost inevitable that many will tire

I know i was one of the first to volenteer and was never contacted by anyone but Talmin
 
  • #176
I just wanted to add that a lot is going on "behind the scenes" through email, phone calls and PMs. What is read here isn't the whole picture. This can't all be accomplished through posts on a forum.

However, I welcome Paul T's comments.
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  • #177
I'll bet yall had just about given up on me. Well, I could hear the battle cries from where I was. I was doing my small part in spreading the word in the name of sarracenia conservation by mounting a display at the Southeastern Flower Show last week here in Atlanta(40,000+ attended). It was recieve very well and it touched many people, not as many as I had hoped but then again everyone counts. I met some really great people and made some good contacts. My ecologist friend and partner on this exhibit, which we titled, "Picture this: Sarraceinas, a disappearing moment in an ancient Southern landscape", connected me with some really great folks in Flordia that may help get a conservation easement on the Wilkerson bog and save it. I hope to have a web page up soon with pics of the exhibit.

It does my heart good to see all the excitment and enthusiasm about this topic. Bugweed and I have talked about this idea for sometime and wondered how we could get this going. Sometimes all one has to do is put it out to the Universe and the rest will take care of itself and so it is. I am hearing some really good ideas and many have stepped up to the plate to take on certain tasks. I applaud you! Know that I will do what I can. This subject has been submitted to the folks in charge at ABG and time will tell. I know it will come down to money, do they have the funds and staff to care for the collection? I have personal connections with influential folks who might be able to fund this but let's wait and see. keep the energy going!
 
  • #178
I am waiting to see your usual stunning pics, Brooks. Glad to hear from you for sure. I am rich with flowering sarracenia right now, and I can crosspollinate on many of them. I am getting the first season's seed ready for however many I can handle. All data will be sent with the seed. Time for me to log and track! To be continued!!-------
 
  • #179
This was posted on the CP listserve and I thought it made some very good points about conservation in general. The statistics say, we loose 10 cures a day in the rainforest to destruction, some of these cures maybe for diseases we don't even know about. When I lecture on sarracenia conservation, I try and put a human spin on it. It makes it more tangible to folks in the audience. We have not fully studied these facinating plants and, how do we know that in these plants does not lie the cure for cancer. There is a mite that lives in the pitchers of these plants that occurs nowhere else on the planet. What if we found out that that mite excreted a substance that was the cure for Parkinson's or Alzhiemers? Everthing on this planet is precious and we may not know why.

" How do you stop the slide of species toward extinction?  Nearly a thousand plants and animals are listed as endangered species here in the United States, and around the world, as you might guess, the numbers are even more dramatic. Worldwide, nearly 12,000 plants and animals are listed as
threatened.  And when we lose those plants and animals to extinction, we don't only lose a life, we lose a time capsule, in a way, because evolution shaped these organisms and locked in their genomes is a record of the adaptations the plants and animals have accumulated over evolutionary time--information that might help us and other organisms not just to
survive, but to thrive."
 
  • #180
Some good news! The Mission Statement and the Business Plan are in rough draft. After it is reviewed by Barry and Carl, we'll take the necessary steps to implement it. More to come!
 
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