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U.S. National Sarracenia Collection

  • #41
This is a wonderful idea. Once this is organized and setup, I would be willing to make an effort to obtain seed from Sarracenia purpurea growing in Ohio. At this time, I have not had any success as the Nature Conservancy does not allow the collection of seed. I have asked about doing so to allow the Ohio variants to be distributed to various growers to help eliminate possible poaching and to possibly re-establish depleted populations in the future.
 
  • #42
Well Tamlin, it seems that things are at a cross-road. Proceed in an unrecognized, although organized, fashion or wait for the bureaucracy to fight over it. It sounds quite unlikely that it would ever be endorsed, as there are too many agencies to satisfy: TNC, USFW.
I have to admit that I've been critical of the whole idea because, the number of plants that this involves is too large for anyone to maintain. I've mentioned that seed collection might be a more viable option. Also, I worry that some might see it as an opportunity to recklessly collect material for personal reasons. Beyond these critisisms, I aplaud efforts to do "something" to preserve these plants. Quite honestly, almost nothing is being done, outside of Appendix I plants.

Good luck, you mentioned that "it would be a mountain to climb."
imduff
 
  • #43
I encourage everyone to be patiant and wait for a sactioned plan. The people at the ICPS love CPs as much as the people on this site. They're the lucky ones who work with these plants for a living. They can see the passion the members of this site have for these plants and the passion to preserve them. We must all work together even if it takes time. This is too important to go off and implement without the input from the experts! It may be a hard sell but most things worth while do not come easy. Everyone out there currently growing these plants, propagate them and get them out to other enthusiasts. Keep an eye out for unscrupulas plant sellers and support any local and or national conservation efforts that you can. If we are patient and persistant we can get a sactioned plan in place and save these beautiful plants!

Glenn
 
  • #44
I agree to wait for the sanctioned plan, but I would like to see one more thing. This has nothing to do with collection or preservation of plants, but of information. Carl is right, plants do not need to be collected from all the sites, but there should be a written record of all the sites (excluding of course every roadside ditch and the like, but maintaining the fact that there were such) and what plants they held. Someday maybe society will awaken to the horror of what has happen to our country's, our world's, eco-system and wish to attempt a restoration. This can not be done without records.
 
  • #45
Tamlin said

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I have replied to Carl that I am willing (gladly) to step out of this if he is willing to assume this pro tem presidency. Carl has made some very good points, and I agree with most of them. Although I feel he has jumped to conclusions in some regards, I feel this is his vision and hope that all will work to support it

We have broached the concept in Forum, and stand ready to assist. This is enough for me for now. IF the ICPS officers truely wish to organize and direct our consitiuancy, let them come forward and take the gavel and proceed.

Ok tamlin, just keep us updated on the progress of this, ok?
 
  • #46
Hmm.  I don't remember seeing any mention of the ICPS in Mike King's description of how he achieved NSC recognition.  (I couldn't get to the link he provided to work so I couldn't read about that organization). The ICPS is INTERNATIONAL isn't it?  So...am I reading it right that since the ICPS wasn't overseeing his UK collection process...its basically just a sarracenia collection growing in his backyard?

I know this project is complicated and demanding with a need for a certain protocol, expertise and guidelines, and calls for the support of as many people and organizations as possible (including the ICPS of course).  I am not naive about that.  But...isn't it about a collection thats "for the people, BY the people".  It would be, after all, a NATIONAL collection.  A nation IS "the people".  Its not an "ICPS Collection."

I'm sorry but that read a bit like "If WE don't do it, it doesn't count."  I have always respected and been appreciative of having an organization like the ICPS in existance and the people that commit to endless hours of work for it.  But I must say I am surprised by the response to this idea. Not one drop of encouragement to a group of enthusiastic people willing to ACT now and do something to secure the future of U.S. sarracenia.  I am not trying to disrespect Mr. Mazur here just because I question his attitude.

"The ICPS" appears to be saying "Stop...YOU can't do this and we won't help you if you go ahead with it."  Barry can't be "bothered" with the issue.  ICPS won't help unless "they" do it.  It sounds like a great idea to me...so...how long do we wait until "THE ICPS" actually starts working on this?

I thought the important thing here is the PLANTS.  How many plants and sites will disappear while the we wait for "sanction"?  Perhaps I am misinformed, but my understanding is, its takes 1-2 years to get a cultivar published.  I wonder what the time line would be for the ICPS to establish a NSC....  
rock.gif


I think the humble, nobody "backyard growers" are the ones keeping a lot of these plants in existence.  Sarracenia ARE already in a national collection of sorts...spread out in private collections across the U.S. (and world).  I thought the idea (simply put) was to put these plants all together in specific safe-houses, so to speak, to ensure their future with skilled care and propagation.

Is it about "sanctions"...or the plants?

OK...so we, the people, don't know anything and WE can't do this.  I'm all ears to hear what the ICPS has in the works for this project.  I know this isn't an idea new to the group.  Hasn't this issue been brought up and discussed before this topic appeared?  What steps have been taken to get this going?  Who has been appointed and what committees set up?  How is the word being spread about this project?  Who has been contacted and what resources are available?

I know...I'm a "nobody"...I'm not on the ICPS board and I don't have a bunch of letters after my name and I'm one of those #### "backyard growers" who doesn't know all the genetic traits of every pitcher plant in the country.  BUT... at least I am willing to contribute NOW in any way I can to accomplish this long-term goal.  And without the membership of "the people", the ICPS would be nothing more than a handful of knowledgeable men with good ideas and intentions.

What a sad day to see bureacracy put the brakes on a group of enthusiastic and caring people will to ACT to save the plants they care about.  
sad.gif


And yeah...I know...I'll piss off a bunch of "important" people with my ignorance and unwillingness to stand down because the gods-on-high said "NO!"  I don't understand why "THE ICPS" can't support this fine group of energetic, caring people and tap the resources offered here.
 
Instead of fanning the flames of enthusiasm and energy and using it to achieve a wonderful goal, the hose was turned on to douse the spirit.  Never thought I'd see that happen on a conservation issue.... Most conservationists have to beg and plead for support and volunteers.
 
  • #47
I have to agree with much of what Plant a Kiss mentions. I hate to see all the enthusiasm crushed by the opinions of two people. I'll restate my previous position; this will never see the sanction of the ICPS. For many reasons this won't "fly" because, there is too much red tape.
I've discussed this entire thread with someone well-informed in the CP community. He has seen habitat after habitat destroyed by urbanization or pine plantation. He too aplauds the intentions of of those involved in doing "something." I personally can think of 5 sites that I love to visit but, realize that one day they'll be gone. These are large, well-known sites that have shown signs of near future development. Is anyone currently doing anything for the plants at these sites? NO. One of these sites will become a housing development and another will become commercial property.
I'd like to mention an idea that could work but, wouldn't be easy (or inexpensive). Natural habitat could be purchased somewhere in the SE US. Not an existing pitcher plant bog but, suitable habitat. This site could be planted with all the the collected material and maintained by annual burning. The flowers would have to be removed to prevent hybridizing but, that's a minor detail. Essentially, you would have a Sarracenia park. This has been done privately in several locations with great success. As well as we can grow these plants in pots, they thrive in natural habitats.

imduff
 
  • #48
I agree with Carl Mazur in that it would be impossible to keep every strain from every population in the US in one collection. However, sitting around another twenty years discussing the problem and then only maintaining some 60-100 strains in cultivations is also not an option, imo. Just because it isn't radically different enough to be registered as a subspecies isn't enough reason for me not go grow this Sarracenia alata 'alabama roadside'.

alata_alabamaroadside.sized.jpg


The hardest thing about having a national collection of a size that could include plants like this would be the concerns about where to keep it and how to fund it. I have a different idea that solves both of these problems, somewhat.

We would need one or more collection points. At these sights, we would collect a few plants or seeds from a few sites a year, maybe a few dozen a year at the most. We would begin with sites that are most immediatelly threatened. These plants/seeds would be grown out and distributed to responsible growers with the space and ability to grow them. As each plant variety gets distributed, a new variety is brought to the collection point(s). This way we would be continually bringing in new genetic variability (or "heritage", as Mr. Mazur calls it) into cultivation. This would be a slow, organized, and well thought out process. We can not have everyone going to the bog most immedietally in their area and ripping out plants. We must have a plan before anyone does anything. Once the plants are in cultivation, stage two of my plan comes in.

Have you heard of the seed savers exchange? They are a group of roughly a thousand people throughout the world, most of them in the US, who are dedicated to "keeping alive" heirloom flower, vegetable, fruit, and grain varieties. Thousands of varieties are dying out simply because the commercial sector has found varieties that, though they might not taste as good, last longer. Anywho, the way the society works is this: Interested growers aquire a variety of seed. They grow this variety out, being carefull about cross-pollination, etc. They harvest the seed from the varieties they grew, and then re-offer them to the other members in a yearly "yearbook". Other members can buy seeds (all varieties cost the same, just above the cost of shipping/packaging) to grow out. Often members listing seeds will indicate that the seeds can only be purchased if you agree to re-offer the next generation of seeds. By doing this, they are keeping thousands of varieties of heirloom fruits and veggies from extinction. Over 3000 varieties of tomatoes alone are offered in the yearbook! Red, white, green, black, pink, you name it... taste ranging over the whole scale, almost everything that has ever been offered commercially and thousands that haven't.

Now, keeping a collection of 10000 fruits, vegetables and grains alive would be a task that one organization, university, or private party COULD NEVER manage. And yet, this "collection" exists. It doesn't exist in one place, but rather in many collections scattered throughout the US. This has several advantages.

1. Nobody has a load larger than they can manage.
2. We don't have all of our eggs in one basket. A storm, bad freeze, or disease doesn't wipe out large parts of the collection.
3. Funding is private and voluntary - there is not cover costs to handle, except for the costs of putting out the yearbook.

As you will by now have guessed, my point with all this is that a national sarracenia collection could be maintained in this same way. Think about it:

If we have only a few locations that are growing all the sarr. varieties in the world, then propagating and shipping them, we could cover the entire state of vermont! Every single strain left on the face of the planet, times all those sarracenia lovers who want them. That is a TON of work and space to expect from just a few growers for more than the first few years needed to get it started.

If we maintain the collection by sending seeds however, all that needs to be maintained is a few plants per person to provide the seed.

We could make a national database that lists for each variety who is growing that variety. Those who have received plants from collection system would be registered in this database. Anyone interested in growing a particular strain would contact one of the current growers for seed. If we are worried about not putting our cp nurseries out of business, this would allow them to have the "monopoly" on plant sales, while we merely distribute seed.

Think about the benefits:

Firstly, the housing and maintanance costs would be reduced to the maintanance of a collection of a few dozen plants per year. The rest of the costs of growing, taking care of, and sending seeds of the national collection would be divided between private growers, who choose which and how many plants to take on, and don't mind shelling out a few bucks to grow their own plants.

Secondly, there isn't the hassle of shipping plants, only seeds are shipped.

So yeah - by distributing the collection from one or three collections to all the interested growers in the US, we can also distribute the time, effort, and money needed to maintain the collection to all those growers. Would this be a viable idea?

This is something that could be done by private growers and through private funding. We would still have to get sanctioned by a few organizations in order to get permission to collect some of the material. Secondly, this would have to be an organized effort, not a free for all. Most of us could not be involved in the beginning efforts, while some dozen or two people set up the organization and get it running. Once it is running, everyone interested could start growing plants and re-offering seed. How many strains are kept in cultivation would be entirely up to the willingness of growers to keep that many separate strains.

just my 2 cents.

-noah
 
  • #49
Yes, I did say it would be a long hard road, but it is not a journey that is restricted to one traveller no matter how well informed, well intentioned, or motivated they may be. The beauty of our American society in general is that it is both free and diverse. Just as with the plants themselves, this diversity can insure that, as some systems fail, others with different characteristics can arise to replace it. Adopting a single strategy approach to any idea is not optimal whether it be in regards to plants, planning, or politics.

I hope you continue to work to form a combined inventory. There is nothing that prohibits you from forming very good collections amongst yourselves, provided you adhere to laws and ethics. You might not have the ABG to house it or funding sources, but generosity has worked as well as anything so far for affording some measure of protection for these endangered species, and it is likely that this is the only way in which their range is currently expanding. Do not lose heart! Continue to act as the patriots that you surely are, and set these plants FREE amongst yourselves.
 
  • #50
To begin with, Noah presented the idea pretty much as I gave it to Carl to begin with, with the ICPS running the seed bank program. As you can see, this is what it degenerated to. I have my faith in the people who love these plants, and not a body that looks for an out, or a watered down version of what I have proposed. Everyone I have heard from thinks it a good idea, and an idea whose time has come. It would effectively destroy the poacher whose prime objective is money. Without a profit, he doe not collect. These plants from all over would be at your disposal, common as cars on the highway. And yes, that includes appendix 1 plants. Tamlin and I have already discussed the possibility of having to do this ourselves, so shall we? My alata red tubes parents came from Desoto at White's Crossing, and I got them way back when , when the ICPS had a seed bank that wasn't afraid to list the plant and location. Oreophila exists in collections from now extinct stands, who has'em? Give'em up so we all can steward them. It was a simple plan, and as usual, they are making it hard. And not listening to the people at the same time. We are on our own as to making an easy thing viable. Get up, get going, we are the stewards, and we need to make a working plan ourselves, I think.
 
  • #51
This is easily the best discussion I've seen on this forum yet. Talk about fired up...

I'd like to take the chance to applaude bugweed for such a elegantly simple concept, and noah for giving us a working example that we can look at for inspiration, and Tamlin for just firing everyone up.

I think that there have been many great points brought up in this thread:

1) That the ICPS actually IS in aware of and in the process of writing and proposing a plan that will preserve the diversity of this threatened genus.

2) Any organized effort to preserve Sarrs outside the accreditted scientific community will not recieve ANY formal recognition, legal exemptions, non-profit status, federal funding, or even really any respect.

3) There are informal routes we can pursue if our goal is simply preserving the diversity of the genus that needn't complicated.

4) There are people among us who are willing to pursue these routes.

I think that it should be pointed out that we are afforded the opportunity take many different approaches to achieve the same goal, and the more we take the more likely one (or more) of them is to succeed.

This is a digression, but...The reason that the scientific community is closed to outside participation is because the average laymen has neither the training in, nor the circumstances to ensure, scientific certainty. The scientific community is eternally battling what is referred to as "voodoo science." That is, people who are passing off bad science as verifiable. For examples think about people marketing perpetual motion machines, anit-gravity vehicles, and deionized water schemes. These are the really nutty ones, but think about how every scientific study is scrutinized and is forced to defend themselves against critics. The scientific community is forced to guard itself against this scrutiny by every means possible, which includes denying many well intended participants from starting splinter groups and projects when they aren't completely versed in the scientific method and supported by scientists. It's not really their fault that they have been forced to be so defensive when there are so many people gunning for them. It seems like anyone not designing a better bullet or bomber these days is forced to fight for every dollar they can get, and preserving scientific integrity is part of that their defence.

So I propose that we can both support the ICPS in their efforts while pursuing a less formal project of our own. I think that most people here are more interested in preserving the genus than in getting credit for it. The point was made that there already exists a collection of Sarrs in private collections that represents every known specie and variety. We just don't know who has what, and we oftentimes cannot verify the authenticity of our varieties with scientific certainty. I say, "So what?" That all of these plants are protected and accounted for with reasonable certainty is good enough for me. This is, of coarse, backed by the knowledge that there are ALSO people working on catologing and preserving with scientific certainty everything that they can. Between the two I find a very happy medium.

It is my opinion that we should move forward with a more informal seed sharing project. For the time being we should establish what all we want to preserve. We should caution against attempting to preserve every population of every specie and form. That would be far too redundant as well as lunacy to try to coordinate (I think).

I think this thread is a good place to try to get a good idea of exactly what we want to accomplish and what we can expect to accomplish. I think that it is very possible to establish a national database and seed sharing plan. I don't think that it's necessary to collect anything from the wild; we already have everything in cultivation, we just need to find out who has it and is willing to share it.

I'm really interested in this project, it's quite similar to something I was working on on my own before I was aware that it was a topic other people were interested in. Please email me privately if you want to talk to me directly about it, but I think everyone else would benefit from any comments anyone has on the subject.

Jason (the monkey) Wills
jawfccj@yahoo.com
 
  • #52
I would also like to be a part of an informal group such as Jason suggested.  Also, if we want to start getting a list together of the plants with location data attached, here's what I have.

S. minor                                     Long Co. GA
S. leucophylla                             Walton Co. FL
S. leucophylla (pink lip) Walton Co. FL
S. flava var. ornata Walton Co. FL
S. purpurea spp venosa var burkei Walton Co. FL

And some seeds I was just sent by Brooks (one of them most generous people I know!)

S. alata                                         Stone County, MS
S. leucophylla                                Avalon, FL, Santa Rosa County


In a few months, when I can make sure these seedlings are well on their way to a good spring's growth, I will have extra of these varieties to send to a several 'stewards'.

S. leucophylla (pink lip)                 Walton Co. FL
S. flava var. ornata                      Walton Co. FL
S. purpurea spp venosa var burkei   Walton Co. FL


It is my opinion that we let the ICPS handle the red tape and get an official project going.  In the meantime, we small time growers should be getting as many of these location data plants around as possible in an informal way.

SF
 
  • #53
I know that Mr. Mazur brings up many good points. Like I said, I'm not unaware of the monumentality of the task and the need to have correct procedure, data and identification, etc. Nobody ever said this would be a cake walk.

Noah has a good grasp of the idea. The original plan was to have a number of sites where the plants would be held, not just one. It would be about collecting plants/seeds from various locations and growers, holding them and propagating and distributing them as well. The collection would grow over time...a long time. But the longer we wait, the less plants there will be.

The point is...that it needs to be done and it has start SOMEWHERE and SOON. Sure, there are LOTS of details to be worked out just to take the first baby steps. But aren't the baby steps better than standing in place? Don't you walk before you can run?

I guess I am offended more by the attitude than the presentation of some very valid points. I think anyone interested in this project would be more than willing to listen to what experienced scientists have to say on the subject. That offers guidance and guidance is needed and appreciated! But don't quash the enthusiasm and interest people have in this! Don't let sanctions or non-sanctions stand in the way of doing what's right and needed.

If people feel this is a worthwhile thing to do...then lets do what we can. Maybe it will fail. But maybe not. And maybe a few decades down the road, there will be plants still on this planet that might otherwise have evaporated into extinction.
 
  • #54
Well said, PAK! I think what we need is an education in meticulous notetaking, and how to go about keeping strains from certain locales "pure". We might get Brooks Garcia to make a pictorial in how seed heads are bagged to keep other pollens out. Learning the technique is a good way to ensure we keep the species whole, as it were. Another plan is to rotate specie pollination in order not to have flowers blooming at the same time, possibly crossing with something you did not want. A fresh pollen exchange might help to get other genetic markers from the same bog, different stand, to cross with another to insure your diversity. I think we should try perusing collections that have been well recorded, and start there. Most known bogs should be represented. If locale isn't known, enjoy the plant and grow it well, but don't get it into the mix. There is more I have been thinking about, but I think we need more input from all of you. Ideas, please. We don't want to shun the ICPS, but they have their program, and we the growers should have ours. We can take care of these plants and preserve them for a long time. If they disappear altogether, then we can only dream of remember when. I don't like that concept at all.
 
  • #55
A member who will remain anonymous since I have not asked his permission to print this private email to me wrote:

I do understand your postion, so please try to understand mine.

I am not willing to give up on my dream because some buricratic fool comes in and makes a little speach about the ICPS. Going off of history, it takes the ICPS forever to make ANY kind of decision. This is time that we don't have.

You know, I will stop being politcal for a minute and give you my true feelings. I don't care if this orginization is "nationally" known, or recognized by the ICPS. Thats not the point. The point is to save these plants for future generations. I willl NOT let one person that is against the idea because it wasn't part of his group kill my dream. I WILL NOT.

This group shall proceed, with or without the ICPS. The ICPS has nothing to do with our goals. Our goal is to make these plants available to all that want them. I can't for a minute think of a reason they could stop us. If they don't want to help us, to #### with em.

I am not doubting your fortitude, belive me I am not, but if you arn't willing to handle the job you have now, please hand it down. I am not willing to see this die. I think we can handle this quicker and better than the ICPS could ever. Do I care that they don't recognize us? No, does any other grower that grows FOR THE PLANTS? No, they don't care. At the end
of the day, its about the plants, not polotics.

I beg of you, head this orginization up for the time being. If you are not willing to do so, hand it down to someone else. DO NOT LET THIS DIE. You have a responsibility now, you love these plants just as much as I. The ball is in your hand now, the choice is yours.

At the end of the day, its not about the friends you made or lost, or the alies and enemys you may have made, its all about the plants. At least thats how it is for me. Its about my daughter being able to grow up and see a Sarracenia leucophylla growing in her backyard in the way nature made
it.

Maybe you don't see the same things. And please, don't think I am questioning your convictions, because I know you are dedicated. I am just asking you to jump over the fence on this once. We need you on this side, the RIGHT side.

**********************************************

So what am I supposed to say to all this?  There is an old listserve post with the question, "Who is William Dawnstar"
One Listserve member reminded me my name means "rising ball of hot gas".

Ok, let's begin this right.  First, as President pro-tem I am making a motion to call for nominations for the office of President of the "Sarracenia FIRST National Democratic Collection" (name to be ratified).  Will anyone second this motion?
 
  • #56
Bout time, William. I will second the motion. There is no way I will accept the answer from the ICPS. We need an education comittee to teach each of us who needs it how to take records and good notes. Also, a digital picture class in properly bagging flower heads  for pollination purposes. I have asked Noah to contact Mike King for record keeping rules and tips. Mike's a good hearted man, and will help us on that I am sure. I have asked Brooks for the pics on bagging flowers, so everybody keep watch! He may wait for spring so we all can see together. Also, we need to start checking local botanical gardens with good plant collectionswith locale info. I will talk to Judith Finn at the Berkley Botanical Garden at U.C. Berkley for help in that area myself. Anyone else? Speak up! We can all be heard on this Forum, so use it to your advantage. Get the word out, we are getting busy. Start the planning phases, and we will take all suggestions into consideration, and even vote on them. Talk it up, its time to get to work and put feet on this plan. Everything legal guys, no underhanded stuff, 10-4? We will not rip anything out of the ground if it is not legal. Anyone in Florida, you can still buy a permit to collect sarracenia through the state. Make use of that, don't go over board. 4 to 6 plants at best of one species. Seed caps are even better. I don't mind watching my babies grow.
 
  • #58
Sure thing! I nominate Tamlin Dawnstar for President as he is so good at it. Who will second?
 
  • #59
No Second motion needed for nomination.  The president pro tem accepts the nomination.


Are there any other nominations?

The duties of your President, or Chairman, as you prefer, are:
To open the assembly, call to order, introduce business, put to the vote, authenticate and validate.  It is an impartial position that seeks to make the will of the members known, while showing preference to none.  The president is the deciding factor in tie votes.

Understand, I have a copy of Robert's Rules of Order to refer to but I am not a parlimentarian.  We could sure use someone with this talent!  In essence, the chairman directs the discussion in a non-partial fashion.

For our purposes, I think self nomination is fine as well.  If you think you would do a good job at directing the assembly, especially if you have conducted meetings before then step forward and nominate yourself.



This will stay up for awhile: lets let other nominations come as they will.
 
  • #60
First of all, I don't have a problem with saying that I sent the E-mail to Tamlin. I truely apologize if it seemed harsh of if you where offended in any way Tamlin. We all know your dedication to these plants, and I in no way was questioning that. We all know you care deeply about the subject.

I am just not willing to let polotics stand in the way of doing the right thing. I won't go on about it, because PAK has put it much better than I ever could, so I shall leave it at that.

Tamlin, thank you, from the bottom of my heart for accepting the position. This would have been a much harder task without you. Your dedication and knowledge know no bounds. I would be proud to serve in this society under you.

I don't think any other nominations for President are needed at this time, but for the sake of democracy I can understand.

Once again, I thank you sir.

Paul
 
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