S. oreophila

[DrWurm]

Just ordered one! Very excited. Unfortunately, I can't say where from. Will post pictures upon arrival.

 

[NeciFiX]

Cool! I love oreophila , nobody selling 'em or givin' em away in Wisconsin!

 

[DrWurm]

If I lived in Oregon, I'm sure I would've gotten one already. These are for shipping, since it's kinda sorta illegal to make people pay for the plant....

 

[obregon562]

it is? i dont think so...

 

[elgecko]

From what I understand the plant can be sold as long as it is not crossing any state lines. If it is, it must be a gift and nothing charged for it.

 

[DrWurm]

Hmmmm, now that you mention it, I was only assuming that, since every place that carries them only offers them in oregon. Must google now.

 

[glider14]

i just got their email...and its illegal what they are doing. they are charging 6$ for shipping the plant to you. if you get your plant...technically you obtained it illegally.

Alex

 

[Clint]

Maybe I misunderstood the e mail I got, but it's hard for me to believe that a plant large enough for a 3 inch pot would require an extra $6 for the sole purpose of shipping.

That said, it's a ridiculous law in the first place. They want to prevent poaching by making a plant rare and more desirable, meanwhile our friends in Europe get the plants (that's not even NATIVE there.... I mean you'd think we'd be allowed to buy a plant NATIVE to our own country....) with no qualms.

Not only that, BUT this plant is renowned for making profuse divisions! It's a vigorous, prolific plant! The laws in this country.... no sense.

 

[DrWurm]

i just got their email...and its illegal what they are doing. they are charging 6$ for shipping the plant to you. if you get your plant...technically you obtained it illegally.

Alex

I don't think so. They're not taking profit from the plant. I'm sending them money for shipping me a box. What they put inside is simply extra. I could literally send them 6 dollars and have them ship me an empty box. But they're giving me the gift of a plant to go with it. Still searching for an official statement.

I can't believe carnivorous horticultural law is so hard to find *end sarcasm*

 

[DrWurm]

From sarracenia.com:
"
1)You may not engage in "trade" of plants with anyone outside of your state. Trade means you cannot sell plants, barter plants for goods, or even exchange plants for plants. (see E.S.A. F.17.61(d),(e).

--Qualifier #1: It is my reading of the E.S.A. that you may transmit listed plants across state lines personally or through the mail if it is purely a gift, and if you do not ask for money. This is because such an activity is not considered commerce (see E.S.A. F.17.61(d), (e)). However, I could also argue that even gifts are prohibited by E.S.A. F.17.61(b), but I do not think this is the case.

--Qualifier #2: I suppose you could ask your interstate partner to send you money to cover postage, packing, etc. However, I would not do this if I were you. I would advise that you simply eat the postage charges and stay clear of breaking the law.


http://www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq4310.html

Legal gray area FTW!

 

[Not a Number]

"You can give the plant to anyone you want. Selling it out of state= jail time. Trades are an absolute no-no. And even postage is paid by the giver. NEVER break these rules. The punishment is just not worth it. Same with seed as far as that goes." - Bugweed

http://www.terraforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=778319&postcount=5

BTW: This species is for sale in California and can be obtained legally.

 

[DrWurm]

Maybe I misunderstood the e mail I got, but it's hard for me to believe that a plant large enough for a 3 inch pot would require an extra $6 for the sole purpose of shipping.

That said, it's a ridiculous law in the first place. They want to prevent poaching by making a plant rare and more desirable, meanwhile our friends in Europe get the plants (that's not even NATIVE there.... I mean you'd think we'd be allowed to buy a plant NATIVE to our own country....) with no qualms.

Not only that, BUT this plant is renowned for making profuse divisions! It's a vigorous, prolific plant! The laws in this country.... no sense.

I'd definitely agree with this. They're nursery grown plants. And the only possible outcome of distributing them is ending up with more than you started with.

And I'm still not convinced that the site would blatantly inform everyone who's ever ordered from them that they're doing this if it was illegal. I'm pretty sure they're safe from punishment as long as they pocket nothing from giving the plant. I know they've tacked on oreophila to orders as bonus plants before.

I definitely don't feel like they're doing anything wrong here. They're chucking away valuable plants just so people like me can be giddy. Pretty nice of them.

 

[glider14]

i with NAN and bugweed...its illegal because even though they may not be making money from the plant...they are still making money as shipping is only 4.60. even with pots and soil it would only be 5 something. profit is profit. a gift is only a gift if its free

bonus plants are different. they are a gift. however you have to send 6$ for an oreo even if you order other plants.

they know better...and im surprised they would do as such....
Alex

 

[DrWurm]

Well, I made a product inquiry, and this about settles it for me.

Hello, thanks for writing. As long as we aren't charging for the plant it
is legal. We can legally charge postage for the plant to its destination.
Since they grow very fast for us and we can only sell so many in state we
occasionally give them away to make space.
Take care

If they're willing to respond so quickly to a question like that, I trust them.

 

[Not a Number]

And I'm still not convinced that the site would blatantly inform everyone who's ever ordered from them that they're doing this if it was illegal. I'm pretty sure they're safe from punishment as long as they pocket nothing from giving the plant. I know they've tacked on oreophila to orders as bonus plants before.

I definitely don't feel like they're doing anything wrong here. They're chucking away valuable plants just so people like me can be giddy. Pretty nice of them.

Second guessing or mind reading others knowledge and understanding of the law or even their motives is likely to be futile.

Take for instance earlier this year some guy in Canada was selling S. oreophila seeds on eBay. If he was selling them only in Canada or his province it would probably would have been ok. Problem was he had sold and was selling to bidders in the US in direct violation of CITES. He claimed these were all nursery grown plants by his own had and claimed many years experience growing CPs. He'd even include a copy of his eBook on growing CPs.

It would be difficult to imagine that anybody who has many years of experience would be ignorant that this species is covered by CITES but I suppose you can cut him some slack. If he had a permit to export these legally one would think he would mention it in his listings.

The bigger problem was if you dug deeper using the title of his eBook it was not difficult to find out his name. A name that figured prominently with several Carnivorous Plant Societies. From that perspective how then could you second guess his behavior?

 

[glider14]

heres the response i got:

Hello Alex, thanks for writing. According to US fish & Wildlife, we can not
charge for the plant going over state lines other than for shipping. So the
listed plant is shipped for the flat rate of $6 for postage and nothing for
the plant.

similar...but i guess rules have changed?

 

[Clint]

$6 is a bit much to tack on for shipping. I can't see how one plant that size would change the price of shipping if it was bare root.

The dude offering these plants is on the up and up. He's got a fabulous reputation, no one is questioning that. It's just... weird.

 

[xvart]

I don't think so. They're not taking profit from the plant. I'm sending them money for shipping me a box. What they put inside is simply extra.

It's all semantics. If you are concerned enough about the rules that you are making justifications (excuses) like you are paying for a box and whatever is inside you didn't know about then you really, really shouldn't be posting about it on a public forum.

I definitely don't feel like they're doing anything wrong here. They're chucking away valuable plants just so people like me can be giddy. Pretty nice of them.

Again, it doesn't matter about how you feel. You should heed Barry Rice's advice when, as you posted, he says:

However, I could also argue that even gifts are prohibited by E.S.A. F.17.61(b), but I do not think this is the case.

and

--Qualifier #2: I suppose you could ask your interstate partner to send you money to cover postage, packing, etc. However, I would not do this if I were you. I would advise that you simply eat the postage charges and stay clear of breaking the law.

I'm pretty sure that whatever argument Barry Rice could create is much more concrete and well thought out than any of the "justifications" posted here.

xvart.

 

[DrWurm]

Well, Xvart, according to the owners of the site, what they're doing is legal. They're not trying to bend the law. They made sure that it would be alright with US fish and wildlife before they did it. So that, as they say, is that.

Really, everyone who doesn't have this species should be jumping on the opportunity to own it at a nice cheap price instead of debating the legality of a generous offer.

Tis a time for celebration!

 

[xvart]

First of all, let me say that I am in no way casting judgment on anyone. My only point was, there are loads of posts and people that have said otherwise; and, in no way am I an expert on CITES and import/export/shipping laws. In my line of work I hear all sorts of justifications for various "rule bending" incidents. I'm just saying that make sure you are comfortable with your individual justifications and be ready to take responsibility if you were provided "poor" information. I applaud you for looking deeper into the issue for contacting the company, even if it was (as it appears) after the fact.

They're not trying to bend the law.

And you know this because they told you so? Maybe they are operating under their own justifications and interpretations. Who knows. It's tough to rely on good intentions.

My original intention was not to start a debate; my ultimate goal was to get people to think ahead and to think more deeply surrounding areas of obvious concern and contradictory experience. It certainly is easier to justify an action after it's already occurred.

xvart.