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A Cephalotus Collection fit for a King! [warning: picture heavy]

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  • #41
I think that some people are getting a little too uppity here... His plants, whether they live, die, or sprout wings and fly to the moon is his business. Sure, it's okay to give growing advice, but some people are being kinda harsh. If his rare plant dies he'll research more before he tries again, if not, people should be happy for him! If it IS an "Eden Black" then there's a source in the US and another way for people to get divisions. If it isn't, but looks exactly like one, who cares? As long as he doesn't try to sell or trade it as the clone then the cultivar status is just a title and means nothing; it's still a nice plant with the same features. Of course, if he is trying to sell/trade it, he should provide proper documentation, as expected with any rare/questionable plant transaction.

I'm not really sure what people are trying to get to, are you trying to prove it's not even his pictures, it's going to die, or it's not a real "Eden Black"? The last one only effects you if you're buying it from him and the first one you should just ignore. Personally, I like the cephs regardless of whether they're "real" or not, and ceph lovers in general should too.

That is all part of the ebb & flow of an internet forum - a new kid buys a VFT, kills it, comes on asking for help (rarely having read any book, Barry's faq, or searched past posts). Two to three weeks later, the same kid is now an 'expert' handing out advice in new threads. Personally, it didn't take me long after arriving to realize that all responses are not created equal ... :0o:

Of course! I feel like an idiot now for my first posts in the forum, both for my stupid questions and my equally stupid answers shortly after. I try to be more careful about my questions and my advice now, but of course, I'm still a complete newbie to the experts... and yet, I'm an "expert" to the truly complete newbies. Who knows, I might quit growing in a few months or I might eventually become a respected figure, though I doubt it. Everyone started somewhere, and I'm sure we all were once the new kid who bought the VFT and promptly killed it... so give them a break, and them existing doesn't mean the forum's gone to hell.

Happy growing!
 
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  • #42
Great looking cephs.. whatever they are.
 
  • #43
As a grower, I'm sure that Stephen Morley has had his contributions to the hobby and such, but honestly, I couldn't give a sundew's dew-speck about his personal stamp of approval.
In previous posts, you've shared your concern about the value of your investment. If this is still important to you, you should care about Mr. Morley's opinion since his statements directly affect that value. As is the case with rare art, provenance of objects (when identity is difficult to ascertain on a stand-alone basis) is critical in assessing value. Without a chain of custody, I could claim that my darkly-colored 'Czech Giant' or Sir K's beautiful black typical ceph is an 'Eden Black'.
 
  • #45
Given the lynch mob mentality that seems to have infected TerraForums in the last couple years I can see this could turn into a real urination confrontation.

If he says he can trace the lineage of the plants back to the original so be it. It would be difficult but not impossible to disprove. If he doesn't want to reveal his immediate source so be it. It might even be in violation of forum rules for him to do so. When acquiring a plant it is always caveat emptor - buyer beware.

So just enjoy the photos even though it takes forever for them to load.
 
  • #46
Given the lynch mob mentality that seems to have infected TerraForums in the last couple years I can see this could turn into a real urination confrontation.

If he says he can trace the lineage of the plants back to the original so be it. It would be difficult but not impossible to disprove. If he doesn't want to reveal his immediate source so be it. It might even be in violation of forum rules for him to do so. When acquiring a plant it is always caveat emptor - buyer beware.

So just enjoy the photos even though it takes forever for them to load.
As 'Eden Black' is a registered cultivar this would be important to provide lineage in future, if this plant is to be resold or propagated from. Without such, anyone could claim to have this cultvar. This would effectively 'contaminate' the cultivar so no-one could be sure if they have the genuine one or not. Stephen Morley keeps records of who he has given the plant to, so could easily confirm provenance.
 
  • #47
I will be taking more photos of an infinitely rarer cultivar of Cephalotus Follicularis later today. This new, and previously unknown strain of Cephalotus will be known as "Golden Clumper" in accordance to my source. To the morons that are putting words into my mouth, I never claimed for it to be a separate species. However, it is, in fact, a previously unknown cultivar known to anyone in the world.

This is not my opinion it is fact, please understand this. There are only two cultivar of Ceph's. Only 2. No more, period.

In order to establish a 3rd, 4th, 5th...you have to get it registered. There are alot of very good reasons for this I won't go into again. There are links in your other thread about this same subject.

Simply saying you have a cultivar is very misleading to the newer people, you have an unregisted possible clones, thats all. The 'Czech Giant's and 'German Giants' are in the same boat. They are unregisted possible clones.

A friendly piece of advice, you need to take a few minutes and think about the damage you are doing to your reputation, reread these threads. I know there are alot of people reading these threads that will never buy/sell/trade with you due to these threads. You may not care and thats your business. Just think about it some.

You are basically saying to us, I can run a 1 minute mile, really I can. Show you? No way.

The plants you are posting pic's of are well grown, but nothing supports any of them being an Eden.

If you really don't care about our opinions, why start these threads in the first place?
 
  • #48
Oh boy, so all the ceph threads have made me go 'round and find old ceph threads on naming conventions and all that. Here's some links I'm going through, which is by far not extensive:

http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24555&st=0
http://www.terraforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114942&highlight=cephalotus+big+boy
http://www.terraforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114082&highlight=cephalotus+big+boy

---------- Post added at 02:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 PM ----------

and the thread on 'Eden Black'
http://www.terraforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107685&highlight=cephalotus+big+boy
 
  • #49
Use the report button to report a post if you feel it is needed.

I really don't understand some of the comments made in this topic... From what I've scanned, it seems people are being passionate, but not rude or attacking. It looks like a discussion on this discussion board, with people on each side pointing out facts and reasons. I have not received any reports from anyone, reporting any particular posts or this thread with a specific reason that they feel anything is out of line, yet I see comments directly in this thread pointing to the fact that something is out of line. I must be missing it.
If someone wants to report a particular post, and give the reason they think it is out of line, the mods and I would be more than happy to take a look at it with those given details. Remember, to use the "REPORT" button to the bottom left of each post, and then give your reasons why you think it is out of line, this creates a topic in the mod forum for us to read it over and discuss it. Posting in threads that things have deteriorated here, it's the kids table or that we attack people in lynch mob fashion just doesn't help anything.
Thanks,
Andrew
 
  • #50
This thread has definitely made it to the top of the list when it comes to age vs replies/views. I will continue posting provocative photos and giving my audience the encores it desires. Happy Growing.
 
  • #51
Every grower will have their own conventions of labeling plants in their personal collection, as I'm sure everyone here is aware. Those are actually my own personal labels, and not those of the previous owner. You can't see them from this angle, but I have stickers on the pots themselves with models of Italian cars-- to give my collection a more personal touch and to be more easily recognizable by myself. These are, after all, my specimens of the highest grade.
And herein lie the problem. Your opinion on labeling conventions is sorely misguided. To echo Tony's comment after your post, why are you relabeling things when they already allegedly have a proper naming convention? Contrary to what Tony said, the way I read this post was you had names and you changed them to suit your desires. Just answer this question straight: the plant you were sold was allegedly labeled 'Eden's Black' but you changed it to Black Maroon for what purpose? Especially since you came in here posting about your 'Eden's Black'?

Also, just out of curiosity what are the other 20+ plants from Australia in your terrarium?
 
  • #52
Listserve, I am dying to know... What are the two flytraps? Both are really tiny, but really intriguing.

One looks like a cup trap, and it's in the fish bowl. The other is the one that I'm intensely interested in, a beautiful red/dark red next to the "black maroon" ceph.

Dyin' to know!
 
  • #53
To my eyes, these plants do not look healthy. The "Czech Giant" in particular looks like it's going the same way as your 'Hummer's Giant'. The alleged 'Eden Black', or whatever it is, looks like it might be going the same way too. If you don't correct your growing techniques then I would suggest that the controversy caused by the unconventional naming of unrecognised 'clones' will naturally come to an end.
 
  • #55
Hat

Yes, truly fit for a king.
What on earth is that supposed to mean? You are by no means a king, so what are you getting at here? I dont even......!?!?
You called some of us morons earlier in the thread, then began to say that we are your audience, and you are putting on a show....
If its a show your putting on, and you say this is fit for a king, then you must be the jester because this thread has just become to darn funny with what you have posted. You are exactly like a kid we had here before, and it's absolutely irritating.
You dont just name a plant Eden black because you feel like it, it's a cultivar tied to a specific clone.
You said your friend has known Stephen Morley for 15 years and received the pls t directly from him, but Stephen says he has NOT shipped anything overseas. Do you take us for fools?
Your conditions for your plants are deplorable. Your plants, just as mobile said are heading downhill. Listen to the advice several of us have offered you, it will do you some good and potentially save your plants, and if not, hey thats your deal and if you lose them than maybe you will realize that advice should be taken to mind even if you dont really even care to listen to it at the time.
 
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  • #56
What on earth is that supposed to mean? You are by no means a king, so what are you getting at here? I dont even......!?!?
Well, it looks to me like the Kings subjects (his plants) are dying and a King is nothing without a Kingdom :)

Perhaps you could translate some of the advise given in your 'Hummer's Giant' thread to these plants. There are some really experienced growers on here, totally many many years of experience. You might also want to familiarise yourself with cultivar requirements and naming conventions: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cultivars/cultivarsmain.html
 
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  • #57
Guys! Don't be jerks. Remember, this is the CP community, not the orchid community!

Be respectful to one another, and check your tone. Remember, sometimes tone doesn't translate well through the internet. I find it helpful to read through what I've written 2 or 3 times to make sure it sounds the way I intended...I suggest you all do the same.

WRONG:
LOLOLOLOL I have N3w pl4nt!!! Bow before the ALMIGHTY GOD of EBAY!!!!11111eleventy

RIGHT:
Hey guys, check out my new plant!

WRONG:
FOOLISH NOOB! No ship that small has a cloaking device!

RIGHT:
Nice plant, but are you sure it is what you think it is? That cultivar is extremely rare and probably goes for thousands of dollars. It looks a little etiolated...is it getting enough sun?


If somebody's ticking you off, ignore them.

If you act like kids, we'll treat you like kids. And I got a stomach bug from some kids a few days ago. I've been unable to drink coffee for three days. I currently hate kids. You wouldn't want me to treat you like a kid.
 
  • #58
Guys! Don't be jerks. Remember, this is the CP community, not the orchid community!

Be respectful to one another, and check your tone. Remember, sometimes tone doesn't translate well through the internet. I find it helpful to read through what I've written 2 or 3 times to make sure it sounds the way I intended...I suggest you all do the same.

WRONG:
LOLOLOLOL I have N3w pl4nt!!! Bow before the ALMIGHTY GOD of EBAY!!!!11111eleventy

RIGHT:
Hey guys, check out my new plant!

WRONG:
FOOLISH NOOB! No ship that small has a cloaking device!

RIGHT:
Nice plant, but are you sure it is what you think it is? That cultivar is extremely rare and probably goes for thousands of dollars. It looks a little etiolated...is it getting enough sun?


If somebody's ticking you off, ignore them.

If you act like kids, we'll treat you like kids. And I got a stomach bug from some kids a few days ago. I've been unable to drink coffee for three days. I currently hate kids. You wouldn't want me to treat you like a kid.
I'm sorry to read about your stomach bug and caffeine withdrawal, something I am well familiar with, being the father of twin daughters - twice the opportunity for bugs to get hold.

On the subject of this thread, there is a large amount of goading going on. To be honest, I'm surprised that the thread has been allowed to continue, as it is no longer a discussion and has become somewhat pointless. Perhaps it is time for it to be locked?
 
  • #59
Hmmmm, I must say this is a touchy thread! I can add some comments here regarding cultivar level publication rules in general...although I haven't read this publication. Consider that the most important element in a cultivar publication is a list of distinguishing characteristics that *set this plant apart* from other individuals. By the Rules, ANY individual exactly matching the legitimately published example MUST be called by the registered cultivar name. This means that if in my collection a form arises that *exactly matches the registered cultivar description* I have not only the right but the responsibility to use the registered name. Cultivar publication DOES NOT, and was never intended to grant ownership rights! For this reason, prospective authors wishing to register a cultivar NAME (which is all that is done in publishing) are encouraged to be as specific as they can be when addressing these distinguishing characteristics. Mr. Morely may not have sent this plant abroad, and perhaps no one did, but it is entirely possible within the natural variation in populations for closely similar clone to arise, and if this agrees exactly with the legitimate publication, then there you have it. It's up to each grower to refer to the reference provided by the publication...therein to agree or disagree, to buy or not to buy, and no amount of policing to control "RARE" material will ever provide assurances that what you paid for is what you got. Cultivar publication cannot control natural variation, nor may any person own it without a lot more effort than is granted by publishing at cultivar level.
 
  • #60
Hmmmm, I must say this is a touchy thread! I can add some comments here regarding cultivar level publication rules in general...although I haven't read this publication. Consider that the most important element in a cultivar publication is a list of distinguishing characteristics that *set this plant apart* from other individuals. By the Rules, ANY individual exactly matching the legitimately published example MUST be called by the registered cultivar name. This means that if in my collection a form arises that *exactly matches the registered cultivar description* I have not only the right but the responsibility to use the registered name. Cultivar publication DOES NOT, and was never intended to grant ownership rights! For this reason, prospective authors wishing to register a cultivar NAME (which is all that is done in publishing) are encouraged to be as specific as they can be when addressing these distinguishing characteristics. Mr. Morely may not have sent this plant abroad, and perhaps no one did, but it is entirely possible within the natural variation in populations for closely similar clone to arise, and if this agrees exactly with the legitimate publication, then there you have it. It's up to each grower to refer to the reference provided by the publication...therein to agree or disagree, to buy or not to buy, and no amount of policing to control "RARE" material will ever provide assurances that what you paid for is what you got. Cultivar publication cannot control natural variation, nor may any person own it without a lot more effort than is granted by publishing at cultivar level.
With regards to 'Eden Black', the cultivar description states 'To preserve the unique characteristics of the plant it should only be propagated vegetatively via leaf or rhizome cuttings, or by division'

Source: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cultivars/description/Eden_Black_cultivar_web.pdf
 
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