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Thread: Poachers

  1. #65
    N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L Pyro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (schloaty @ Oct. 25 2004,1:04)]Bug, he is be objective.... He objects to being treated as such.... sorry...couldn't miss the opportunity...
    Just so

    Bug,

    Perhaps I am being somewhat emotional (I have been accused of that many a time) but I really do believe that the comment was directed at me since I am basically the only one consistently arguing the opposite side of the issue.
    'My love was science- specifically biology and, more specifically, when placed in a common jar, which of two organisms would devour the other.'

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  2. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (PDX @ Oct. 14 2004,12:59)]The other side of this issue though seems to be why some sources charge extremely high prices for a plant that maybe isn't all that rare? I have to wonder what the reasoning is when a vendor* offers a plant for $100.00+?
    mainly that fact that not everyone knows what is rare and what isnt

    have you looked on ebay?
    nearly every CP listed says "rare" next to the name
    if ones that are common

    perhaps its the seller, trying to get joe schmoe, who doesnt know what is rare and what isnt.. who has money, and wants a "rare" collection so that he has something his buddies dont have, or for his office or whatever to "show off" and he doesnt know that what he has isnt rare..
    just the thought of it being rare is enough for him to pay the amount they are asking?

    example:
    I want a photo album..
    I walk into a frame store, and they show me a rare handmade cloth album made by blahblah in blahville for 100 bucks.
    turns out I buy it cause its "rare" and "handmade"
    not knowing that a turn into walmart would bring up the same exact frame for 15 bucks.

    cause people dont look around, they dont know their info and they dont pay attention to price.
    so they dont know it should cost less.

  3. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (imduff @ Oct. 18 2004,7:59)]You made me think of plants like the leuco 'Tarnok,' antho-free jonesii, antho-free leuco, and most recently, antho-free alata. All, unique plants that were selectively removed from a site for introduction into cultivation.
    To take this thought a step further, there are several well-known plants and cultivars that originated in the field. This list includes: Dr.Mellichamp's 'Moore's Melody,' 'Adrian Slack,' Slack's 'Claret' and 'Burgundy,' antho-free purp 'heterophylla,' antho-free purp luteola from FL and AL, antho-free flava from GA and NC, antho-free minor. That's all that comes to mind right now but, the list is probably longer. This list spans more abundant times with Slack to today. The field will seemingly always be a source for unique specimens that growers will utilize. However, restraint should be practiced to keep diversity and evolutionary forces progressing. Ideally, some kind of harmony needs to exist between growers and conservationists; whereby, growers will respect the laws and efforts of conservationists to keep the wild populations progressing, and conservationists make efforts to have unique material available to growers.
    imduff

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    Imduff,

    You mention some great plants in your post. Plants most dedicated growers would love to have. My question is why are the majority of these so tough to track down? I have not seen any of the Slack plants offered in quite some time. I realize they were "grown" in England but it's been many many years and these are still impossible to locate here.

    Does anyone here know the costs involved in tissue culturing a plant? I'm wondering what the complete price is along with how many plants you'd be required to purchase. I'm curious as to whether or not it would be "worth it" to produce a run of any of these plants? I know a couple people that have some of these plants. Also, what are the "rules" involving, say a 'Moore's Melody'. I know it's a Mellichamp plant, but does one need Mellichamps' permission to tissue culture this plant? I would think it would be customary to let the person who named the plant know of your intentions, but is that all that's required? I guess I'm asking if a plant is in a sense copyrighted or trademarked.

    Now that I've steered my post towards tissue culture (and if anyone's still reading ) is it true that flava have been quite difficult to culture? I'm a little puzzled by just what is currently available via tissue culture. I would think a red tube flava would be well received?

  5. #69
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    PDX,

    It's my understanding that a plant can't be propagated, if it's patented. As 'Moore's Melody' isn't patented, you could tc it. You've mentioned that it's probably polite to let the originator know of your intensions. I've seen tc labs offer culturing services for hostas but, never Sarracenia. Their prices for hosta culturing were high. The question remains, "is there enough interest in the plant to justify the process?"

    imduff

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    What the Sarracenia world needs is someone like me, only filthy rich. I would eat the cost of TC-ing all hard-to-find specimans and give them away. Maybe I'm just going to have to break down and start playing the powerball.

  7. #71
    N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L Pyro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (imduff @ Oct. 25 2004,8:09)]To take this thought a step further, there are several well-known plants and cultivars that originated in the field. This list includes: Dr.Mellichamp's 'Moore's Melody,' 'Adrian Slack,' Slack's 'Claret' and 'Burgundy,' antho-free purp 'heterophylla,' antho-free purp luteola from FL and AL, antho-free flava from GA and NC, antho-free minor.... The field will seemingly always be a source for unique specimens that growers will utilize. However, restraint should be practiced to keep diversity and evolutionary forces progressing.
    This is a great point and if I might borrow/elaborate upon this example. S. luteola: This plant has been found in a couple sites, as you mentioned. A well known (and some consider well respected) grower is reported to have stripped an entire site in Apalachicola and later sold off what he took. This was an act of poaching and greed and was totally unnecessary. ABG on the other hand got legal permission to aquire material from the wild (I do not know what site.) They have cultivated plants and gotten a stable population in their greenhouses. This year they cross pollinated a number of clones and are hoping to be able to provide plants out in the future. I also have rumors that ICPS might be supplied with some clones for the same purpose. This is a much better outcome IMHO than the proior act. Sure they both got the plants into circulation but ABGs actions did not compromise any sites. Admittedly it has tekken them time to accomplish the same end but as has been said before, growing these plants are great for teaching patience

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Ideally, some kind of harmony needs to exist between growers and conservationists; whereby, growers will respect the laws and efforts of conservationists to keep the wild populations progressing, and conservationists make efforts to have unique material available to growers.
    I absolutly agree. This was the point I have been trying to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]My question is why are the majority of these so tough to track down? I have not seen any of the Slack plants offered in quite some time. I realize they were "grown" in England but it's been many many years and these are still impossible to locate here.
    I can not speak for all the plants listed but I do know that after Slack's illness his nursery basically closed down and his plants wer distributed out to others that were not quite as diligent as he was. Because of this many of his cultivars have been lost.


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Does anyone here know the costs involved in tissue culturing a plant? I'm wondering what the complete price is along with how many plants you'd be required to purchase. I'm curious as to whether or not it would be "worth it" to produce a run of any of these plants?
    I think this is a multifactoral issue, the cost to TC a plant probably varies based on a dozen or more conditions. How easy is it to get the material? How big does the plant get? How many different chemicals are needed for just culturing? How many different chemicals are needed in the multiplication media? How difficult is it to switch between culture media and multiplication media? The list goes on and on. It is definitly worth it to produce these plants or no one would have go to the effort with prior specimines ('Tarnok' 'Dixie Lace' etc.) but part of it also comes down to pizzazz. Is the plant cool enough? Sure everyone who sees a 'Tarnok' thinks it is really pretty and that the flowers are "awsome" in their own right. Would anyone be interested in an alata that was multi-sepalate though? The pitchers are not as colourful, and the yellow flowers might not be as awe inspiring. I personally would love to have one but I would guess the community at large would think it rather bland. So if a multi-sepalate alata were out there odds are it would not get TC'd because the demand would not be high enough to make it worth while.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Now that I've steered my post towards tissue culture (and if anyone's still reading ) is it true that flava have been quite difficult to culture? I'm a little puzzled by just what is currently available via tissue culture. I would think a red tube flava would be well received?
    Flava are indeed difficult to culture. I amnot sure of anyone who has a good flask of them going. And this trait seems to carry over to plants that have flava as a parent too sa many moorei clones are dificult to get into culture (though there are some that seem to take well enough )

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]It's my understanding that a plant can't be propagated, if it's patented.
    I am not sure this is correct. If I recall, S. leuco 'Titan' is patented (as S. lueco 'Chronos') but it is in TC. Though this might be a special case.
    'My love was science- specifically biology and, more specifically, when placed in a common jar, which of two organisms would devour the other.'

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  8. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Pyro @ Oct. 26 2004,10:05)]If I recall, S. leuco 'Titan' is patented (as S. lueco 'Chronos') but it is in TC. Though this might be a special case.
    Actually it is the other way around. Sarracenia 'Cronus' (R.Sacilotto) is the registered cultivar name (Registered 29. 7. 2002) and is sold under the trademark name of "Titan".

    Similarly, the cultivar S. 'Tornado' has the trademark name "Vortex" and the cultivar S. 'Fireworks' has the trademark name "White Sparkler"

    The only CPs that I am aware of that are protected by a patent are
    Sarracenia 'Cobra Nest' (Booman) US Pat.Off. 6. 8. 2002
    and
    Dionaea 'Royal Red' (AUPBR 464) application 93/069

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