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Poachers

I was just curious as to anyone could shed some light on poaching. It seems there is at least some concern over poaching, as evidenced by the thread about leucos in Georgia. I was wondering where these plants end up. Believe me, I am a nut for pitcher plants and there is probably not a week that goes by where I'm not on the net looking for any I don't have yet. I would like to think I have found every possible site that has pitcher plants for sale. To the best of my knowledge, every plant I've found for sale on the net is not poached, but cultivated. Is there really that big of a poaching business for these plants? It seems that you can get just about anything from the net nowadays, at reasonable costs. I understand a lot of the poaching is probably for the floral industry, but is there that big of a demand? I don't ever recall walking into a florist and seeing sarracenia bouquets, or if you go to 1800flowers.com or someplace like that, I don't ever recall seeing sarracenia in their arrangements. maybe it's a southern thing, as i am in the midwest.

is there anyone out there who actually knows "what goes down" with pitcher plant poaching, as far as how many are poached, where they end up, amount of $$ being made; not implying you are a poacher of course, and certainly not that i am looking to get into the business!!
 
I know with the GA leuco it isn't so much a money matter (though ABG has been offered huge sums of money but collectors for specimens. ABG will not sell the plants however.) Mostly it is a status thing. A person thinks they are top line if they have a GA leuco because it comes from a highly protected site and is therefore a prize plant. I have seen the GA leucos and I admit they are fantastic looking and have some remarkable features. But if you grow a batch of leuco from seed you will probably get plants that display the same features. It is all a name thing with the GA leuco: 'I have it and you don't!!' It is rediculus and even a bit sad that people (even well respected people in the community) would consider poaching the site just to say they have that one plant from that one place.
 
Some really good points have been made. I think people are starting to ask questions that need to be asked. The GA leuco site is likely the last GA site, not from poaching, but, habitat destruction. The most serious threat that these plants face in the wild is not from poachers but, from habitat destruction. As Pyro mentioned, there are some growers that only want something rare, no matter what it looks like. These growers/collectors could be a potential threat to a small, rare site like the GA leuco site. The only way to eliminate this threat is to flood the market with product. The plants generated from just 2 seedpods from that site could satisfy any existing demand and eliminate pressure on the site. The efforts of Dr.Rice should be congratulated for being one of the first to realize this offer alabamensis from 3 different sites. This must have been a tremendous effort but, should continue.
I'll state it again. Beyond the small threat from collectors, there really isn't much threat to these plants from poachers. Tissue culture propagation has become a stable, inexpensive source of cp and eliminated the desire to strip an entire site. Rumors of sites being entirely poached are false and based upon inaccuracies and misinformation. The days of mass poaching are long gone. Sarracenia has made a significant observation. There is talk of poaching but, where are the plants being sold? Efforts to protect these plants in the wild should be based upon accurate information.
imduff
 
Hi Pyro,
Thats the basic problem even with botanical gardens holding onto and not distributing plants. Sarracenias are easily propagated even en mass. Here in England Kew gardens had possibly the only example of a blue and white topped (its true!) leucophylla and refused to share it. It was killed by new staff with tap water..
Plants need conserving in collections and also need to be distributed to ensure continued survival even though the original stands may have been destroyed years ago (exapmple, flava 'Burgundy' and flava 'Claret' were originally field collected before the sites were destroyed).
Most of my plants have location details, but when I sell or swap plants they are always from divisions; I make sure I have at least 3 plants of the same clone before I release spares. In this way, individual plants need never be lost.
 
Thanks for that input, Mike. That is what the NASC is all about. We get the plants everyone wants, sow the seed, and ship 2 or 3 year old babies to whomever wants them. The whole idea was to flood the market, and make their value nil. And at the same time, everyone gets what they are looking for---locale species. We will eventually get started, but Casper (the Prez!) is still hard at it in Florida and anywhere else where help is necessary. We cannot get started fast enough! Imduff is absolutely correct in his statement that the habitats are being lost more to development than any poacher could ever collect. We should be up and running by the end of this year, and I hope that we can stand up to the task, and get everyone what they are in need of. And the sooner the better!
 
I want to add my two cents worth to this.
No question, habitat destruction is the greatest threat, but poaching is a problem. I guess being from big cp area, I see more of it than others.
I've said this before, There are two types of poachers. One wants to have the plant to grow and the other wants to make money.
The collector poacher has already been discussed so I'll discuss the greed poacher.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I was wondering where these plants end up.
If you think about what the motive of the poacher, I think it'll answer your questions. The motive is to make as much money as fast as he can. So that should tell you that they are going to find the best market for the product. There are two very profitable markets for cp's. One is the novelty market. They sell the plants in stores where no growing instructions are given and 95% of these plants will be dead in a month. The second market is of course us. We buy the poached plants.
Like I said I have personally seen quite a few poaching cases. I use to sell cp's. I bought them from a greenhouse that I later found out that they field collect. After I found that out I did some research on them and found out that they bought a permit from the state that gives them legal rights to collect cp's. The permit cost them $1. I call it a poaching permit. There is nothing that I can think of that can be done to them. It's really legalized poaching.
Another case is hundreds of vft were stolen from a state park only to turn up being sold on ebay.
I bought some vfts from ebay once, the guy threw in a nice S.purpurea for free. I was told later that he was a big poacher.
I was told by a park ranger that there was a cp convention in Asheville NC a day after the convention a local S. oreo site was completely stripped of every plant.
You can't tell me that poached plants don't make it into our collections. A member on the cp listserv posted a pic of a S.rubra, wanting to know if anybody could tell it's origin. I could tell it was from the greenhouse that use to buy from because of the soil mixture and the pot type. Just last month me and Nick Hubbell was at a store in Toledo OH and I saw a display of vft's and it was from the same greenhouse.
Whenever you buy a plant it is your responsibility to find out if it's poached. Remember we are the biggest market for poached cp's.
 
"Remember we are the biggest market for poached cp's. "

that reall hit hard, i never thought about it but your right!
 
how exaclty do you figure it out? I mean... anybody could just lie (maybe except nurseries) and tell us that they grew it.
 
i guess people are naturally suspicious.

besides, word gets around. i believe we all know about a certain nursery who's infamous for poaching and paying people to poach.
 
  • #10
I guess I should emphsize that there isn't the large scale poaching that used to occur, as recently as, the seventies. Some of the largest importers of poached Sarracenia and flytraps are now the largest producers of tissue cultured cp. This has eliminated the need for poaching. Small-scale plant removal occurs but, not to the complete destruction of the site. Granted some of these sites with jonesii, alabamensis, oreophila, and purp montana are so small that little effort would be needed to remove all the plants.
Ozzy, I question your comment about oreophila being poached from the Ashville, NC area. I don't know of all the sites but, the nearest oreo site is miles east of Ashville. Now, there are still sites with jonesii and purp montana around Ashville but, they are very difficult to access. I simply think we need to be careful about pointing fingers and pulling the alarm. Things should be in perspective; there is no greater threat to wild cp populations than careless spraying and urbanization. Comparatively, the rest is "nickle and dime." Enough cliches?
imduff
 
  • #11
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]i believe we all know about a certain nursery who's infamous for poaching and paying people to poach.
I don't... I don't know of anyone or any nursery that poaches/pays poachers.
I DEFINATELY do NOT want to support poaching!
and why isn't that nursery punished?
 
  • #12
well then i guess not everyone knows. i'll pm you.
 
  • #13
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]how exaclty do you figure it out? I mean... anybody could just lie (maybe except nurseries) and tell us that they grew it.

Use your natural instincts of suspicion. Every time you by a plant try to investigate the seller a little. Notice things that may not be obvious. If you see somebody selling alot of full grown plants. If you see plants for sell on ebay by somebody that is not known in the cp community or if they are from a place that cp's grows naturally. If somebody has alot of bare root plants that they need to sell. All of these should raise warning signs. Just look for things that just don't seem right. Even if you visit the greenhouse and see them growing plants, be suspicious. I visited the greenhouse I talked about many times, but his method was to pot them give them a dose of root hormones and extreme light for a while to cause a big growth spurt and to redding the vfts. So I was fooled for a long time, but I saw things that didn't add up. If you even have a question don't buy the plant.
Or you can always buy from well know suppliers like Petflytrap and you'll never have to worry about it.


I agree that poaching is not even a fraction of the threat of development but it still exists and it is still a problem. Check out Barry's website sarracenia.com.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Ozzy, I question your comment about oreophila being poached from the Ashville, NC area. I don't know of all the sites but, the nearest oreo site is miles east of Ashville.

When I said local it was meant to be a relative term. There are well documented locations near the NC/GA state line. Asheville is about 50 miles north east from the documented locations. I can't say that these location are the ones that the ranger was telling me about. I didn't ask. I don't know very much about oreo locations but I don't know any locations that are east of Asheville.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I simply think we need to be careful about pointing fingers and pulling the alarm. Things should be in perspective; there is no greater threat to wild cp populations than careless spraying and urbanization. Comparatively, the rest is "nickle and dime."
I think we should not turn a blind eye to any threats that face cp's. We should be putting most of our efforts towards saving locations and location material. But we should still fight the poaching problems.
Until you see the damage that poaching does please don't say that it's so small that we need not worry about it. I know of poaching operations that are so big it not only makes a good living for the owner but it employs 4 or five other people. Thats alot of plants that have to be dug up and sold at $2.50 a plant.
When you walk out into a field and see 200 holes where vft's use to be, then you can tell me how big a problem poaching is or isn't.
 
  • #14
Poaching vs. collecting is another interesting angle on this topic. Where is the line drawn between collecting for 'science' and poaching come in. Remember some of our most prized plants were 'collected', 'Schnell's Ghost', 'Hurricane Creek White', purp venosa luteola and, on and on. A hybrid or cultivar does not come from a collected seed head necessarily but typically a plant must be taken from the wild. There is a picture in Don Schnell's book of his wife in the wild holding a recently 'collected' S. minor. When is this acceptable and when is it not? The NASC's mission, as Bugweed says, is to relive the poaching of location plants, that we can easily do with seeds. The more unsual plants are a different story. I have been actively breeding hybrids for two years for fun and to introduce. I hope to help take the pressure off the wild stands for unsual plants. For course unsual wild forms will always have their mystique and allure. Trading is a great way as well. I have established several trading buddies as of late and greatly increased my collectrion and I have helped them as well. Sharing this hobby is the greatest pleasure to me and that means sharing my plants too.
 
  • #15
Good points, Brooks. I know some real, true old timers in the cp world, who collected a lot during the seventies. Many of the plants everyone grows here today directly or indirectly came through them. The finest S. mitchelliana I've ever been able to find was selected from a flat of approx. one hundred seedlings raised from collected seed from one of these old timers. If someone has a State granted permit, and permission from the land owner, it's not poaching by legal definition.

Trent
 
  • #16
Florida is the only state that I am aware of that actually issues sarracenia collecting permits. Otherwise, a signed permission slip from the landowner is the only "certificate" you need in most states. Does anyone know of any other states that have sarracenia collecting permits?? I would think North Carolina would be in there, but have heard no word.
 
  • #17
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mike King @ Oct. 12 2004,3:42)]   Plants need conserving in collections and also need to be distributed to ensure continued survival even though the original stands may have been destroyed years ago (exapmple, flava 'Burgundy' and flava 'Claret' were originally field collected before the sites were destroyed).
Mike,

I do not deny that but ABGs first and foremost action with the GA stand is to get it back up to healthy status. Once that has occured odds are they will probably release a few of the GA plants to growers. But right now their job is collection of seed, rearing the plants until they are large enough to fend for themselves and then replacing then in the wild. They do not pollinate any of their own plants so there is no "free" seed as of yet. I am sure the day will come but patience is in order.
 
  • #18
Use your natural instincts of suspicion. Every time you by a plant try to investigate the seller a little. Notice things that may not be obvious. If you see somebody selling alot of full grown plants. If you see plants for sell on ebay by somebody that is not known in the cp community or if they are from a place that cp's grows naturally. If somebody has alot of bare root plants that they need to sell. All of these should raise warning signs.

Essentially, you're saying, "guilty until proven innocent."

I agree that poaching is not even a fraction of the threat of development but it still exists and it is still a problem. Check out Barry's website sarracenia.com.

This quote sums my point. The health of a site is not irreversibly harmed by poaching. That is a thing of the past. The real threats today are reckless spraying and land development. Energy should really be focused in addressing this. Letters should be sent to power companies, suggesting alternatives to herbicide use in powercut sites. The Yellow River site is a perfect example; it was a fantastic site for Sarracenia for decades. There were thousands of plants that would take a poacher a month to completely remove. In one pass all the plants were wiped-out. If you've ever visited the site, you too will miss the leucos, psitts, gulfensis, purps and nearby flavas. Not to mention the spectrum of hybrids.

When I said local it was meant to be a relative term. There are well documented locations near the NC/GA state line. Asheville is about 50 miles north east from the documented locations. I can't say that these location are the ones that the ranger was telling me about. I didn't ask. I don't know very much about oreo locations but I don't know any locations that are east of Asheville.

I'm sorry, I meant west of Ashville. Fifty miles is probably conservative, unless you have a helicopter. Besides, the site we're both referring to is doing well. Perhaps the Ranger's poaching accounts are overstated.

I think we should not turn a blind eye to any threats that face cp's. We should be putting most of our efforts towards saving locations and location material. But we should still fight the poaching problems.
Until you see the damage that poaching does please don't say that it's so small that we need not worry about it. I know of poaching operations that are so big it not only makes a good living for the owner but it employs 4 or five other people. Thats alot of plants that have to be dug up and sold at $2.50 a plant.
When you walk out into a field and see 200 holes where vft's use to be, then you can tell me how big a problem poaching is or isn't.

You're right, I've never walked through a field to find 200 holes where vfts used to be. I've seen signs of poaching but, the number of holes has always been less than 10. Further, this has been a rare sight. I don't mean to sound condescending but, I admire your passion. My point is that if the goal is to save these remaining plant sites, your energy might be misdirected.

My hopes are that my comments are taken to provoke thought and not to be taken personally. This is afterall a discussion and we don't have to agree completely.

imduff
 
  • #19
Well said, Imduff. Oz-man is indeed passionate, and I do not blame him. I remember the Green Swamp in 1973. I was out doing my observations, when a nurseryman's truck pulled up and 4 guys got out. After about 1/2 hour, they had about 300 plants, and away they went. I looked into the flava field, and couldn't even tell they were there. After all, then there were thousands of plants. That same area no longer exists today. Development took in 1 week, what a truckload of legal collectors could not. (Yes, they had permits). Come to think of it, the developer had legal permits too. So who was right???
 
  • #20
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Bugweed @ Oct. 13 2004,9:47)]Florida is the only state that I am aware of that actually issues sarracenia collecting permits. Otherwise, a signed permission slip from the landowner is the only "certificate" you need in most states. Does anyone know of any other states that have sarracenia collecting permits?? I would think North Carolina would be in there, but have heard no word.
I do not know if GA has state issue permits but I do know that to remove any plants on federal land (BLM, National Forest, etc.) you have to go through a ton of paperwork. A signed slip of paper does not cut it with the feds
 
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