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S. purpurea in california?

seedjar

Let's positive thinking!
So, I was looking up Sarracenia hybrids when this caught my eye:
http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin....l=SARRA
It's a USDA report that seems to say there are wild stands of S. purpurea in California! Does anybody know about this? I presume they must be introduced, as I'm sure that the Savage Garden and other reputable sources of CP information would point out if there were a native colony so far flung from the regular distribution of the plant... Still, it could be some "Land of the Lost" type thing... You know...
o/~ Marshall, Will and Holly / On a routine expedition / Met the greatest earthquake ever known... o/~
~Joe
 
They are introduced sometime in the 60s I believe. Wait till Barry sees this thread he will know all about them
 
A great example of the "conservation ethic" gone astray.
 
Asian Carp.
Purple loosestrife
Zebra mussels.
Sarracania in California.

introducing non-native species is ALWAYS a terrible idea..
even if its done on purpose.
even if its plants we "like"..

mad.gif


Scot
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (scottychaos @ May 26 2005,6:32)]Asian Carp.
Purple loosestrife
Zebra mussels.
Sarracania in California.

introducing non-native species is ALWAYS a terrible idea..
even if its done on purpose.
even if its plants we "like"..

mad.gif


Scot
Agreed SC! Those pics made me kinda sick. I like zebras, but I sure don't want to see them roam Valley Forge Park here in PA with the deer

Funny how there was the comment about someone using a trowel to get 'an instant D. aliciae collection'. I commend that person. Go back with your trowel and dig up every non-native plant.
 
Dang.  Those are some unnatural residents.  Every species in there exept the darlingtonia are intoduced.  I mean.... Australian sundews in cali?  That's just wrong.  Is this place near san diego?  I have a good mind to just go and take those plants out of the wild and put them where they belong... in my house
biggrin.gif
 j/k...
 
  • #10
I agree
LOL, where do you live in S.D.?? There is only one other person who I know here who is also a tf member.
 
  • #11
Wish I had [good] non-native CPs poping up down here. I would love to get a free collection. Dang alicae is so expensive and I can never bring myself to ttrade for that or N. ventrata.
 
  • #12
Greetings,

I wouldn't worry about introduced carnivorous plants for several reasons:
1. The habitat they require is so specific that the chances of them spreading to new habitats are slim.
2. They are non-invasive and no threat to other plants.
3. They are cool

Feel free to disagree.

Brian
 
  • #13
I'm free! I disagree. Thanks Brian for allowing me to disagree, even though I am not worried about it. They aren't going anywhere, and like you said, they are non-invasive. We have a lot of things going on around Ft. Bragg, California too. There is a bog there with all kinds of out of stater plants living there. South Africa, Australia, and other places have all been introduced there.
 
  • #14
[b said:
Quote[/b] (lol @ May 26 2005,4:23)]Dang. Those are some unnatural residents. Every species in there exept the darlingtonia are intoduced.
I suspect that the Darlingtonia are also introduced to this specific location. Probably the only native growing there was D. rotundifolia.
 
  • #15
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Greetings,

I wouldn't worry about introduced carnivorous plants for several reasons:
1. The habitat they require is so specific that the chances of them spreading to new habitats are slim.
2. They are non-invasive and no threat to other plants.
3. They are cool

Feel free to disagree.

Brian

I will also disagree!
(except with #3!)
biggrin.gif


There was a debate over on the CPUK forum awhile back that S. purpurea ARE considered invasive in some bogs in the UK they were introduced into..
at first, I didnt believe it either, but apparently the plants have been there 40 years now and are doing so well that they are covering the bog, choking out native bog species..
thats invasive.

We dont know what harm an introduced species might do in 100 or 100,000 years..
we (humans) could disappear at any time, and all those non-native species will be left behind..

Scot
 
  • #16
[b said:
Quote[/b] (scottychaos @ May 27 2005,1:55)]we (humans) could disappear at any time, and all those non-native species will be left behind..
Scottychaos makes an excellent point about running interference with native species with these introductions.  Many species have adapted over time to survive in their habitat, and barely can compete against existing species in this niche environment, yet alone competition from a potentially invasive species.

I left SC's comment about our disappearance and native species left behind for a reason.  Once we are gone, I don't think it will really matter what happens to species left behind--we won't be around to care about it anymore.  But think about this.  Our constant tampering with the environment could be the reason for our ultimate demise.  No, I'm not saying those D. capensis in that bog will get us in the end.  Although many of us may feel that way when weeding them out of our collections.   What I'm saying is, that for each potentially far reaching action by one individual, when there are billions of us on this planet, this human meddling can have a cumulative and potentially catastrophic effect.  

Have a nice day!  
smile.gif
 
  • #17
[b said:
Quote[/b] (JBL @ May 27 2005,8:14)]Once we are gone, I don't think it will really matter what happens to species left behind--we won't be around to care about it anymore.
it matters a lot to the species left behind!
smile_k_ani_32.gif
smile_m_32.gif


thats like saying "after im dead it doesent matter what happens to my children (or the Earth, or whatever)
because I wont care..because I will be dead."

it matters a lot!
the fact that humans will be extinct is irrelevant..
just because we might cease to care about something because we are dead doesnt mean its still not vitally important..

im sure the next species that evolves to our level of intelligence after we are exticnt will care plenty about how we altered its environment..
(well, then again..by then things will have probably evened out a lot..a few million years will do wonders to obliterate all evidence that we were ever here..)

Scot
 
  • #18
I think what JBL may mean is that nature has a way of working things out. Look at the sundews in the Hawaiian islands (or almost all the plants and animals there.) They rafted over by chance, hopping hundreds to thousands of miles between little chains of sparsely distributed islands. It wasn't like they evolved there hand in hand with everything else. I'm sure they caused a big stir when they arrived on the scene.
Non-native, invasive species create problems in time spans of our lifetimes and societies. But on a geological, evolutionary scale, it's really more of a drop in the bucket. We only notice because we're closely dependant on certain ecosystems and climates. Crazy things happen all the time at the geological scale - scientists have even given it a name, 'genetic drift.' There will always be chance events that remove and replace members of ecosystems, and mankind doing so is just another example.
The real issue is that invasive species cause troble for the balance of power here and now. I don't think that cane toads are going to end life on Earth - really, the big threats there are world war, and possibly deforestation. If the vertebrate food chain collapses (which is a more likely possibility) then perhaps we'll lose all the vertebrates, the jellyfish, some of the flowering plants, and closely associated species from other groups, but I don't think that insects, lowers chordates, ferns, bacteria, fungi, deep sea fauna and hardy plants like ivy will kick it any time soon. That's more than enough to recover from a mass extinction. Life goes on; species don't.
~Joe
 
  • #19
[b said:
Quote[/b] (scottychaos @ May 27 2005,3:03)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (JBL @ May 27 2005,8:14)]Once we are gone, I don't think it will really matter what happens to species left behind--we won't be around to care about it anymore.
it matters a lot to the species left behind!  
smile_k_ani_32.gif
 
smile_m_32.gif


thats like saying "after im dead it doesent matter what happens to my children (or the Earth, or whatever)
because I wont care..because I will be dead."

it matters a lot!
the fact that humans will be extinct is irrelevant..
just because we might cease to care about something because we are dead doesnt mean its still not vitally important..

im sure the next species that evolves to our level of intelligence after we are exticnt will care plenty about how we altered its environment..
(well, then again..by then things will have probably evened out a lot..a few million years will do wonders to obliterate all evidence that we were ever here..)

Scot
Hi ScottyChaos,
My comment does not mean that we should not care, and should not be stewards of the land and all creatures.  It simply means what it says.  There is not one living creature today (that we know of--debate avoidance) that will know what happened.  

Life will indeed go on as Seedjar points out.  The native rotundifolia is not going to turn to the capensis and say 'wish those humans wouldn't have put you there'.  Yes, maybe in a few million (more like many million) years an intelligent life form will be able to figure out what happened.  This is a big contingency.  Maybe life will take this turn, who knows? Maybe the planet will never have another quote 'intelligent' life form.  Rewind Earth's history at any given point, change something, and bam (slow bam, over eons)--different outcome.  But believing this does not make me uncaring.

I think I also made it known that I do not support our tampering with the environment. In summary, it matters to us a whole lot as a moral issue because of who we are.  It certainly will alter the existence of remaining species.  Seedjar said it best, and my opinions are joined with his.

Scot, I know exactly what you mean by caring and doing what we can in our lifetime.  If I led you to feel otherwise with my comments, I apologize.  I thank your for responding and taking the time to clarify what others may perceive as a fatalistic, 'does it really matter anyway' attitude.  That was not my intent, but I do realize my terse comments made it seem that way.  And Seedjar, thak you for an intelligent articulation of my half baked/evolved post.
 
  • #20
[b said:
Quote[/b] (JBL @ May 27 2005,11:55)]Hi ScottyChaos,
My comment does not mean that we should not care, and should not be stewards of the land and all creatures.  It simply means what it says.  There is not one living creature today (that we know of--debate avoidance) that will know what happened.  

Life will indeed go on as Seedjar points out.  The native rotundifolia is not going to turn to the capensis and say 'wish those humans wouldn't have put you there'.  Yes, maybe in a few million (more like many million) years an intelligent life form will be able to figure out what happened.  This is a big contingency.  Maybe life will take this turn, who knows? Maybe the planet will never have another quote 'intelligent' life form.  Rewind Earth's history at any given point, change something, and bam (slow bam, over eons)--different outcome.  But believing this does not make me uncaring.

I think I also made it known that I do not support our tampering with the environment. In summary, it matters to us a whole lot as a moral issue because of who we are.  It certainly will alter the existence of remaining species.  Seedjar said it best, and my opinions are joined with his.

Scot, I know exactly what you mean by caring and doing what we can in our lifetime.  If I led you to feel otherwise with my comments, I apologize.  I thank your for responding and taking the time to clarify what others may perceive as a fatalistic, 'does it really matter anyway' attitude.  That was not my intent, but I do realize my terse comments made it seem that way.  And Seedjar, thak you for an intelligent articulation of my half baked/evolved post.
Joe,
yes, I did read it as "why should we care? we will be dead anyway"..
thanks for clearing it up!
smile.gif


Scot
 
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