What's new
TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Captan fungicide?

Today is NOT a good day. I just returned from a trip to find that my patio mini-bog of 4 years appears to be the victim of a fungal infection. It's the usual signs - wilted leaves; dead leaves; and, most notable, rhizomes that have turned brown and spongy, with just a few living white roots remaining. In fact, the s. purpurea, s. flava, and s. psittacina are dead, but the hearty s. wrigleyana lives on.

Because I am going out of town again on Tuesday for a week and want to at least save some of my plants, my question is this:

Can I use Captan Garden Spray (48.9%) on my bog in this emergency situation, while I await Cleary's to arrive via mail? If so, does anyone know how much to mix with water?

Thanks in advance.
 
I'm so sorry about your plants. Would garden sulphur work?

Captan does work...but be sure to suit yourself up in a full haz-mat wardrobe before you use it.

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/captan.html

While this epa info makes it sound not so bad...there's tons of anecdotal stuff out there....I hate even walking past the stuff in the garden center. Best of luck!
 
I have used Captan and Benomyl for over 15 years with great success. I would not use anything Sulpher based on anything. Good way to kill everything you got.
 
I've used Captan once in the past two years for a MILD fungal infection on a newly acquired VFT. It helped.
 
Actually, I read the report (1st link), and the document was merely a reevaluation of Captan required by the EPAs new classification guidelines (not because of new concerns) and, as such, was simply a summary of all prior data on the carcinogenic potential of Captan (i.e., no new data presented).

In fact, the document states that "Captan is not likely to be a human carcinogen at levels that do not cause cytotoxicity in the proximal small intestine....and not likely to be carcinogenic to humans in all other organs/tissues or following dermal or inhalational exposure."

Basically, it boils down to: Captan is likely not to cause cancer if it gets on your skin or is inhaled, and may cause cancer in the small intestine only if eaten at levels at or above a threshold dose (it seems to be dose-dependent) for prolonged periods of time. What's a high dose? Well, if you extrapolate the mouse data to a human male weighting 150lbs, you wold need to eat ~61g/day for many days for you to have a statistically significant elevated risk of getting a cancer of the small intestine!!!! Geeze....almost any insecticide, herbicide, fungicide would probably cause a lot of damage if ingested in such quantities!!!

Please feel free to critique my math or reasoning. I try avoiding the use of chemicals whenever possible for safety and environmental reasons....but it seems that there's nothing especially dreadful about Captan (compared to most other agents).

Best regards,
 
I'm not qualified to critique your math. Your reasoning is simply stated, your reasoning.  

I've read much of the "anecdotal stuff" out there referred to by a previous poster. I'm of the opinion Captan is not safe and that the Powers That Be saw fit to create new classification guidelines because they too believed the product was not as safe as the manufacturers would have led us believe.

Basically, what it boils down to for me is that chemical pesticides, herbicides and fungicides are engineered to kill- that's their purpose. Some are broad-spectrum poisons, which kill a wide range of living organisms, others are targeted to specific species. Often, when we're focused on a particular problem in the garden... weeds for example... we can lose sight of the other effects garden chemicals might have. Some chemicals, for example, leach into the soil and groundwater, leaving toxic residues. Others may affect non-target species: the chemicals we use to control an unwanted pest may also kill butterflies, for example.

In nature, you can't tinker with one small piece of the puzzle without having an impact... sometimes positive, usually negative on many other areas and often without realizing it. That's a potentially alarming responsibility for each of us to shoulder, but it's a basic ecological fact. And it's also what makes the ecological web of connections between all life forms so fascinating and intricate!"
 
I completely agree that Captan may have a detrimental effect on the environment, based on other cidal agents displaying an overwhelming trend towards this end. However, this is obviously just my opinion and it must be supported by objective data before specific environmental hazard statements are made for Captan.

However, I was under the impression that we were discussing Captan's potential effects on human health.

Where I must respectfully disagree with you is on the effects of Captan on human health. Anecdotal evidence, to me, can never be strong enough to issue specific statements on any agent's effect on human health. Scientific studies must be conducted in vitro and on animal models, and even when an agent is found to have an effect in vitro or on animals, this must be supported by human clinical trials (or, in the instance of toxicology studies, by appropriate epidemiological analyses). Admittedly, these things take long periods of time and money, but they are necessary as official health impact statements have a profound impact on people's lives, regulatory agencies, healthcare systems, and industry.

I also totally agree with you that we all have a huge personal responsibility to restrict the use of most cidal agents and, when using them, to abide by all personal and environmental safety regulations. We only have one planet earth!

Regards,

PS: I hope the moderators and our fellow CPers will indulge us on this interesting discussion. My apologies in advance if I got this topic a little off track!

smile.gif
 
  • #10
It's been my experience that most folks pull a product off the shelves as a quick fix, drop it in their cart, and take it home to spray away with wild and reckless abandon. I used to be one of these people.  I wonder what the statistics are regarding how many people actually use products consistent with the labeling?  That would most certainly be an interesting study now wouldn't it. I doubt seriously if you and I will ever see research such as that. Scary to think of what such a study would reveal.

Regarding these comments,
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]a huge personal responsibility to restrict the use of most cidal agents and, when using them, to abide by all personal and environmental safety regulations.  We only have one planet earth
I love what you wrote. One concern, how many people know what a cidal agent is unless they run across a thread like this where a topic gets a little off track. Thank you for getting off track chloroplast. We don't live in a bubble and what you do affects me and what I do affects you.
 
  • #11
The original poster wanted help about using Captan for his infected Sarras. The books mention that Captan is safe to use on Sarras.

The studies done use rats to infer safety or hazards for humans. The results can only make inferences upon human safety.

Pharmaceutical drug studies for humans are conducted using animals. Many drugs are approved that are safe in the animal studies that later turn out to be unsafe for humans. Many drugs that are dangerous for animals are safe for humans.

It is fantasy to state with certainty that negative results from animal studies will carry over dangers to humans in every case.

The large amounts of chemicals that animals are exposed to in the studies would equate to that animal living many multiple of times its normal life expectancy. Not to mention the extremely high dosages of the chemical that a human would have to be exposed to equate with the animal study. The animals are not given "normal exposure" doses. They are given extremely high doses.

I would be more concerned about the dangers of cancer-causing nitrates from potato chips or grilled steaks than the dangers of nanogram exposure to Captan.

The dangers of silicosis from perilite cause me more concern. When I used to use it, there was always a cloud of fine dust that could be easily inhaled.

That and the study that someone did demonstrating that perilite has a weak electrical charge that disrupts root growth in Nepenthes. I think it might be the same for Sarracenia. I no longer use it for these reasons.

If it is so dangerous for rats, why is it not marketed as "Raptan Poison™"? Because the rat's great, great, great grandratlings would die of old age before they could eat the truckload required to kill them....

I wish I had the last 30 minutes of my life back.

Tweek
 
  • #12
Well well tweek, I for one thank you for taking a half hour to post what you did. I still have fits of the giggles over "Raptan Poison™". That was pretty good. Will you be marketing Raptan Poison™ any time in the near future?
 
  • #13
[b said:
Quote[/b] (LauraZ5 @ June 22 2005,11:39)]It's been my experience that most folks pull a product off the shelves as a quick fix, drop it in their cart, and take it home to spray away with wild and reckless abandon. I used to be one of these people.  
Or the people that do that do it because they know what they are looking for.

I bought Captan because it works. So what if it carcinogenic? I know smokers who have smoked since they were 17yrs. old and haven't been diagnosed with cancer yet. I don't think a little fungicide is going to hurt you. People who chew tobacco are in the same boat, been doing it for a looong time and haven't been diagnosed. The sporadic usage of a specific fungicide shouldn't hurt one, unless you sleep next to it, but I wouldn't reccommend the use of it in ones household, luckily I have a greenhouse and use it there only.
 
  • #14
Most folks Dustin, not all. You're the exception to the rule but there are other gardeners who also take the time to educate themselves. You may be familiar with what's out there and what works and exactly what you want but the vast majority of people are clueless. Watch people select their products the next time you are at WalMart. I've watched and am amazed. I saw one woman walk out with the entire front portion of her shopping cart full. She must have had 5-6 different products. No exaggeration either, the entire basket to her cart was full of sprays and powders and concentrates. I asked her why so many and she said, "My roses caught something and I don't want them to die". My reply with a smile, "Oh, looks as if you have everything covered".  Her reply, "God, I sure hope so". Not much more you can do other than to exchange pleasantries.

I don't use Captan or other products like it if at all possible as I don't believe they are safe. I also don't like storing them here whether it be under the kitchen sink or out in the garage.  I do have kids and sometimes the only thing separating them from life and death is me. Regarding the Captan, it's the cumulative effects that concern me and I truly don't believe there is enough information out there to make me comfortable using them at this time. I may be 100% wrong but for now, I'd like to continue steering clear of them until at such point in time as we know more.  I don't have a greenhouse but maybe someday I will have one and I would still steer clear of these products even if I had one. If you don't mind my asking, why wouldn't you reccommend the use of Captan in one's household but the greenhouse is ok?
 
  • #15
The greenhouse has an exhaust fan in it and I turn it on when using dusts and powders, even the strong smelling Isotox (acephate Orthenex) and it vents all of that outside. Even after application, the fan still runs for cooling and its generally not a threat to be in the greenhouse. In ones house, there is virtually no air movement, unless you have an attic fan or many fans running constantly with windows open round the clock.
 
  • #16
Captan is a very effective fungicide. It still scares the poo out of me.

Common garden sulphur. It's also an effective fungicide. Sulphur doesn't scare the poo out of me, though I am careful (dust mask, long sleeves, long pants, eye protection) when I use it.

I planted some sweet corn with the enhanced SE gene a couple of years ago..all the seed had been treated with Captan, and dyed pink, and I used rubber gloves to handle the seed.

And people wonder why I'm against testing things on animals. Animals aren't people, are they?
 
  • #17
Well, it seems like the near-consensus is that Captan is effective. However, although animal and human studies have shown it not to cause cancer except under extremelly high and prolonged dosing, it should nonetheless be used with caution because it is likely to be an environmental hazard and because the health studies are far from comprehensive.

Two things for everyone to ponder:

1. I'll be the first to admit, the fact that Captan is unlikely to cause cancer does not mean that it's safe. Lest we forget, there are thousands of human diseases many of which have unknown etiologies.  Here's a tidbit for us guys.....an NIH-funded study recently found that tap water with pesticide concentrations at <10ppm may be responsible for reducing sperm count by 30% in city-dwelling men who live miles away from farmland.  That's less than 10 pesticide molecules per million water molecules!!!!  And, for all we know, inhaling one molecule of Captan could cause Alzheimer's.....there just aren't any studies.  So, it's best to use it with caution and not spray it all over the environment.

2. Infestations are usually caused by underlying problems that cannot be cured with chemicals.  Many people forget this.  Getting rid of fungus won't get rid you of your overly humid and stagnant air; getting rid of fungus gnats won't get rid of your overly watered soil; getting rid of spider mites won't rid you of overly hot and dry air; getting rid of nematodes won't rid your plant of its nutrient deficiency, etc.  If these things aren't fixed, your plant will probably die anyway....it'll just take a little longer!
 
Back
Top