Stop it!

[Darcie]

I am really sickend right now. I never looked in here befor I and I wish I never had, but maybe I can help. Their are a ton of post in here about animals people have gotten from the wild. STOP IT! Wild animals are NOT pets, yes they are cool/cute but you can not steel them like this. For starters, you are probubly breaking the law. Licences are needed to collect the FEW spiecies aloud to be captured. Some of these animals have jail time and gigantic fines placed with their capture in an attempt to keep people from ketching all the wild ones. For some examples, Box turtles almost went extinct in the wild from people finding them cute and taking them from the wild. Now days their very strict rules in regards to them and you can NOT keep them from the wild. Killing them also counts. If you want a Snapping turtle however, a fishing licence is all you need. Why? Not many people care for Snappers and these guys reproduce fast.

Okay, so you don't want to give up your critter. To bad, it's better you put it back where you found it. Try going to some high quality pet shops, get some books and fined an animal that was bred, born and raised in captivity.

Above everything else, my #1 consern is the bad advice people keep giving. If you know little of animal care to begin with, please don't share your misconceptions with others. Here is a does of truth for you all

to help clear things up.

1 All captive herps require suplements in their diet. Never forget this fact!
2 Hotrocks can kill a herp, don't use them, get hot matts insted.
3 Reptiles NEED a reptile light.
4 Snakes MUST have a tank at least 1.5x their length to keep them from having back problems.
5 Always provide a shaded cool end and a sunny warm end to a tank
6 Always give a hiding place in bother the warm and cool ends of the tank.
7. Newspaper without colored ink is a good medium for reptiles. But you must change it EVERY DAY. Other mediums like coconut bark are good, but you MUST remove soiled areas EVERY DAY
8. Reptiles need to soak in iodine water periotically to help them shed and to remove bacteria from their skin
9. Coconut bark should be used with amphibians, NOT DIRT
10. Many animals need a sleeping time for the winter or summer
11 They will bite and they are not likely to let go for a few minutes, DON'T freak just wait.
12 Pulling a snake that has bit you off of your finger will probubly peal off your skin, wait for it to let go.
13 Veggitarian lizards need a huge viriety of food and NO camercial food can give them what they need.
14 REASEARCH your chosen critter BEFOR you buy it

I hope no one thought I was yelling, I'm just stressing some importent points and if anyone says keeping box turtles is okay after I post this, well then I'll yell LOL!

 

[theironmonkey]

well, there are some very dedicated herpers on this site and im sure they get alot of their animals from quality captive breeders. wild animals carry diseases and parasites, so it is better to buy from reputable dealers. however, collecting from the wild is not as against the law as you make it out to be. each state has its own laws and regulations. it depends on the laws of your state and the animal you are collecting. for example, rattlesnakes. rattlesnakes are protected just about anywhere you go. in california, you are allowed to collect 2 of any one species and thats it. if your caught with more than 2 of wild collected rattlers, you get in trouble with the law. in arizona, it depends on species. crotalus lepidus klauberi, pricei, willardi and sistrurus catenatus edwardsi are some of the protected species in arizona that are not allowed to be touched. but the diamondback (crotalus atrox) along with others is legal to collect. it just depends on your states specific laws. now, im not saying its good to collect from the wild. i encourage anyone to buy captive bred animals. i have collected from the wild myself, but no longer do i take herps from the wild. i do take the occasional scorpion or tarantula however. buy captive bred if you can and if you want to collect in the wild, please check your local laws and restrictions

 

[cephalotus88]

Yes, a few of us here are devoted herpers, like myself. We all know the general "rules" of the trade. Please don't worry about us mistreating our animals, etc. In most areas, a state hunting/fishing license is all that is needed to collect one or two of the more common herps, and maybe a few rarer ones (like here in CA, a Lampropletis zonata). I dont encourage people to collect from the wild large masses of animals for the pet trade or wahtever, maybe jsut one for a pet or so. I agree with theironmonkey on this.

A few of the members here are "newbies" to the herping craze, so this forum area is great for asking questions.

Just my 2 centz-Zach

 

[cephalotus88]

oh yea, not to keep bugging youll

, well, i think there is a few errors in your list of information Darcie (not to say your totally wrong or anything).

3 Reptiles NEED a reptile light. > Not all reptiles require a reptile light (i think you mean those heat lamps or UVB bulbs). Nocturnal herps like many Lampropletis sp. dont need one, etc.

1 All reptiles need supplements> Not all herps need supplements. Snakes feeding on mice may never require a vitamin powder, etc.

Very nice insight on the topic Darcie, thanks for all the tips -Zach

 

[drosera]

Hi,

I don't know for sure which posts you are specifically alluding to, but you do bring up a good point. It made me wonder to myself if it might not be an option for some few people to consider keeping their native pets outdoors instead. I'm talking about creating a suitable habitat that would attract the desired wildlife in your own yard. If successful, patience and a little encouragement (usually in the form of food hand-outs) could habituate the animals to your presence enough that you may be able to handle them occassionally.


Obviously, this could only apply for those people residing in rural/country areas. And it can't be done for all animals. But it always amazes me when I see people bring animals inside when they would do alot better for them by setting up a nice place outside. Just a thought.

On a related note, I tried to do a search for the National and International laws concerning the personal collection of native wild animals. I can't seem to really pin-point the *major* legal acts concerning this issue. Because of another field of interest of mine, I was under the impression there was something called the North American Wildlife Protection Act. But apparently it doesn't exist. Does anyone know of any such act or convention? I do however know about the following: CITES, The N.A. Migratory Bird Treaty, The Endangered Species Act.

Take care!

Chris F.

 

[Darcie]

I'm glad to see some more experenced people here. I tended to over generalise all because so many people think they can get away with just feeding crickets or keeping the animal in the dark. I guess I was mostly thinking of the local wild ones when I went off. As for collection info goes Snakes are much more widly excepted as okay. Turtles on the other hand have several big time laws placed on them because so many where being collected and then killed in captivity. Box turtles are mild no no's. Anything endangerd (a lot of turtles are) is the big no no I was speaking of. I've seen some turtles that where illigally taken from the wild, and not given supliments or a UV light for vitem D. Oh it's so horrible *sniff. I've never seen anything so sad. NOT EVER. It was 13 years old. uh. And it's shell. His shell is barly 4cm's long. He has health problems as can be expected and at this point all the rescue agencey can do for him is make things and good as possible for him. I...I can't stand to even picture the little guy. Then their are the kids who take turtles home and let them go in their yards >

Most turtles will starve befor they get used to the new terratory and die *sniff. Sigh, I understand newbe mistakes, I just wish more where open to learning about their critters first. One time I had a deal set up with some kids mom to return the animals they kept stealing from a local pond. "Sorry kid, he must have run away" Thankfully the kids started to return most, but I had to take away 5 endangerd/protected ones from them that they felt where to cool to let go

The good news is the little girls grew up to understand animals (they are about 5 years younger then me). Even though their older brother killed 6 iguana and gave the 7th savear deformations from neglect, the girls have taken over her care and although her spine is bent, she is now a good size, tame, fully tailed and happy

I can remember sitting with those girls showing them the bump in the back, and then going over foods and how to know when she was happy.

It feels so good to know I helped a few people to understand animals a little better. I'm sorry I got a little huffed up, I only read three post each of which was how do I take care of the blank my kid caught. As a kid I got lots of critters for a bit too. But I always read about them befor I went hunting. Perhaps we can encurage newbees to let their current critter go and flearn more about it, then go out and buy/fined one. BTW I'm a herp freek with no herps... lol. To bad the school only alows fish. So, what are everyone's favoret critters?

Mine are Green Iguana (from helping so many people deal with theirs)
Monitors (OMG they are so cute, I want the rescue one at the pet shop but alas I never will)
Dragons (come on you can't but love this group)
Skink (sooooo cute and shiney, I know, stupid reson)
Dessert Iguana (I was this close to getting one)
Corn Snakes (perfict size, decorator colors)
Geko's (So cute, not real practical but cute)
hmmm, I love em all really. I guess in phibs I like firebellies and treetoads of all sorts. And you got to love the salamanders.

Personnally, I have rescued/taken care of for a while:
Green Iguana
American Toad
Eastern Garder
Eastern Milk
...geee, list seems short but I don't inclued anyone who stayed with me less then 24 hours.

 

[Spectabilis73]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Darcie @ Oct. 08 2002,2:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm glad to see some more experenced people here.  I tended to over generalise all because so many people think they can get away with just feeding crickets or keeping the animal in the dark.  I guess I was mostly thinking of the local wild ones when I went off.  As for collection info goes Snakes are much more widly excepted as okay.  Turtles on the other hand have several big time laws placed on them because so many where being collected and then killed in captivity.  Box turtles are mild no no's.   Anything endangerd (a lot of turtles are) is the big no no I was speaking of.  I've seen some turtles that where illigally taken from the wild, and not given supliments or a UV light for vitem D.  Oh it's so horrible *sniff.  I've never seen anything so sad.  NOT EVER.  It was 13 years old. uh.  And it's shell.  His shell is barly 4cm's long.  He has health problems as can be expected and at this point all the rescue agencey can do for him is make things and good as possible for him.  I...I can't stand to even picture the little guy.  Then their are the kids who take turtles home and let them go in their yards >

 Most turtles will starve befor they get used to the new terratory and die *sniff.  Sigh, I understand newbe mistakes, I just wish more where open to learning about their critters first.  One time I had a deal set up with some kids mom to return the animals they kept stealing from a local pond.  "Sorry kid, he must have run away"  Thankfully the kids started to return most, but I had to take away 5 endangerd/protected ones from them that they felt where to cool to let go  

 The good news is the little girls grew up to understand animals (they are about 5 years younger then me).  Even though their older brother killed 6 iguana and gave the 7th savear deformations from neglect, the girls have taken over her care and although her spine is bent, she is now a good size, tame, fully tailed and happy

  I can remember sitting with those girls showing them the bump in the back, and then going over foods and how to know when she was happy.  

 It feels so good to know I helped a few people to understand animals a little better.  I'm sorry I got a little huffed up, I only read three post each of which was how do I take care of the blank my kid caught.  As a kid I got lots of critters for a bit too.  But I always read about them befor I went hunting.  Perhaps we can encurage newbees to let their current critter go and flearn more about it, then go out and buy/fined one.  BTW I'm a herp freek with no herps... lol.  To bad the school only alows fish.  So, what are everyone's favoret critters?

Mine are Green Iguana (from helping so many people deal with theirs)
Monitors (OMG they are so cute, I want the rescue one at the pet shop but alas I never will)
Dragons (come on you can't but love this group)
Skink (sooooo cute and shiney, I know, stupid reson)
Dessert Iguana  (I was this close to getting one)
Corn Snakes (perfict size, decorator colors)
Geko's (So cute, not real practical but cute)
hmmm, I love em all really.  I guess in phibs I like firebellies and treetoads of all sorts.  And you got to love the salamanders.  

Personnally, I have rescued/taken care of for a while:
Green Iguana
American Toad
Eastern Garder
Eastern Milk
...geee, list seems short but I don't inclued anyone who stayed with me less then 24 hours.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I like all those cridders. I too am a herp lover with no herps! many people collect cridders from the wild cause pet shops want so much money!I saw a 2-3 foot burmese python (sp?) for $372.00! you can't get anything cheap these days,except for carnivorous plants! I've seen cps from $3.00 to $90.00! I guess anthing can be expensive.

Spectabilis73

 

[Pyro]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Darcie @ Oct. 07 2002,11:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Above everything else, my #1 consern is the bad advice people keep giving.  If you know little of animal care to begin with, please don't share your misconceptions with others.  Here is a does of truth for you all

to help clear things up.

1  All captive herps require suplements in their diet.  Never forget this fact!  
2  Hotrocks can kill a herp, don't use them, get hot matts insted.  
3  Reptiles NEED a reptile light.  
4  Snakes MUST have a tank at least 1.5x their length to keep them from having back problems.  
5  Always provide a shaded cool end and a sunny warm end to a tank
6  Always give a hiding place in bother the warm and cool ends of the tank.
7.  Newspaper without colored ink is a good medium for reptiles. But you must change it EVERY DAY.  Other mediums like coconut bark are good, but you MUST remove soiled areas EVERY DAY
8.  Reptiles need to soak in iodine water periotically to help them shed and to remove bacteria from their skin
9.   Coconut bark should be used with amphibians, NOT DIRT
10.  Many animals need a sleeping time for the winter or summer
11  They will bite and they are not likely to let go for a few minutes, DON'T freak just wait.
12  Pulling a snake that has bit you off of your finger will probubly peal off your skin, wait for it to let go.
13  Veggitarian lizards need a huge viriety of food and NO camercial food can give them what they need.
14  REASEARCH your chosen critter BEFOR you buy it

I hope no one thought I was yelling, I'm just stressing some importent points and if anyone says keeping box turtles is okay after I post this, well then I'll yell LOL![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I hate to have to argue some here becaues Darcie lectures on getting good advice and not offering misconceptions but some of her advice isn't set in stone either. I have been keeping herps, in some form or other, for 20 years. These have ranged from garter to corn to bull snakes to bullfrogs and their tadpoles. From horned lizards to horned frogs to spade-foot toads. The one thing I have found with herps is that there is no set of guidelines that you can rely on.

Specific retorts I have to Darcie's comments
1)Not necessaraly. My Tucson Banded Gecko has never recieved suplements and is 13 years old (possibly a captive age record.)
2)Hot mats are just as dangerous as hot rocks
3)No they don't. I have never used a reptile light and none of my reptiles have suffered calcium deficiency, bone problems or metabolic disease.
7)It isn't always necessary to remove soiled areas. My vivariums are dynamic and I never remove waste.
8)An iodine wash is not necessary. I have never heard of this and never done it in all my years and I have never had an animal experience shed problems.
9)Dirt can be used with amphibians but you have to take special care to avoid build up of urea. A couple plants can do that easily.
11&12)If you don't want to wait upto an hour or more, stick the offending animal under running cool water.


Keeping box turtles is okay. They make great started pets and are easily acquired in pet stores (legally.)

My main point is that you can not believe everything anyone tells you, even if they claim to be an "expert" (and yes that means that you should not take everything I say as gospel either.) Different situations have different rules and different solutions. Figure them out by doing your own research from as many sources as you can and then work for what is best for you.

 

[theironmonkey]

well, ya know how all these animals got into the pet trade to begin with dont ya?? it happened from..DUN DUN DUN!!!....... wild collecting. where did we get our beloved CPs from?? wild populations! i can understand capturing wild animals for breeding programs and fresh bloodlines to ensure that our beloved herps dont inbreed. so, if you think about it, collecting wild animals is good for the right reasons. i believe over collecting or collecting just to collect is wrong however. some are so rare in captivity that the only way to obtain them is from wild caught specimens. thats only because they have not been collected enough to start breeding programs. in time, it pays off because desirable species will come more readily available and more healthy through the captive breeding. i feel that alot of animals are way over collected tho. go to a petco and look at the anoles. there are a hundred or so that just sit there and die. that is uncalled for. that kind of collecting needs to be put to a stop!

 

[Guest]

I am confused...

Is this just a bash session on other people, or has someone actually stated that they collect wild animals on this forum?

I know that the group of people we have here are responsilble as well as kind to other people/animals.

I also think that if someone doesn't have the right information and is speaking in general terms, that is worse to anyone/thing than not saying anything at all

As I truly respect others opinions and feelings, I have to draw a line when things get mixed up in the process.

Just as the purpose of this post, I am not sure why I am posting or the meaing of it all

 

[Houstonherp]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (drosera @ Oct. 08 2002,3:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I tried to do a search for the National and International laws concerning the personal collection of native wild animals. I can't seem to really pin-point the *major* legal acts concerning this issue. Because of another field of interest of mine, I was under the impression there was something called the North American Wildlife Protection Act. But apparently it doesn't exist. Does anyone know of any such act or convention? I do however know about the following: CITES, The N.A. Migratory Bird Treaty, The Endangered Species Act.
Chris F.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Chris -

Wildlife and plants native to the U.S. are covered under the Endangered Species Act if protected federally, or U.S. Fish and Wildlife laws for game and furbearing animals. As for other native plants and animals, it's up to the individual states to decide which ones need protection within the boundaries of their state. For instance, the Alligator Snapping Turtle is protected here in Texas, but is legal to possess in neighboring Louisiana where it is more common.

My personal opinion is that NO animal should be taken from the wild for a personal pet or personal gain. It's not fair to take an animal from the wild and put it in a cage for the rest of its life. How would anyone feel if they were stuck in their bedroom for the rest of THEIR life? No TV, radio, books, just a bed.

Sorry folks...keeping wild animals as pets is one of my pet peeves (pun intended)

There are MORE than enough kinds of animals, especially reptiles, being captive born to satisfy even the most particular enthusiast. If you can't find it, you're not looking hard enough!

 

[Houstonherp]

One more thought here...

I think the single most important thing anyone can get out of this string is that it is especially important to DO YOUR RESEARCH!! If you get a dog, you can buy dog food. Buy a cat, cat food, Rabbit, rabbit food. But if you buy a snake, you can't just go down to Petsmart or Petco (YECH on both&#33

and buy a 25 pound bag of Purina Snake Chow. Make sure you know how to care for a particular animal, and make sure it's BEFORE you get it. A boa has drastically different needs than a corn snake.

As for the collecting of wild animals - yes, all captive born animals originated from wild stock. But it took experienced persons with multiple animals to determine what needs the animals required to reproduce in captivity. I don't have a problem with the collection of animals for educational or humane research purposes, or the establishment of a captive breeding program. But I have a real problem with someone who takes an animal just so they can have it in their house (where so many wild animals end up dying).

I don't think anyone on this forum is this type of person. If they are, they should consider doing the right thing and letting that box turtle/garter snake/frog go.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Joachim]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Houstonherp @ Oct. 11 2002,05:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's not fair to take an animal from the wild and put it in a cage for the rest of its life. How would anyone feel if they were stuck in their bedroom for the rest of THEIR life? No TV, radio, books, just a bed.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Just out of curiosity. Do breed animals deserve this?

Joachim

P.S.: Sorry Dyflam, did initially miss a negation...

 

[Dyflam]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Joachim @ Oct. 12 2002,02:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just out of curiosity. Do breed animals deserve other?

Joachim[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Huh?

 

[cephalotus88]

Hmmm..in Reptiles and a few sites, they state people will often collect LEGALLY one or two wild animals to add a fresh blood line for thier breed stock.

 

[Darcie]

Oh good, a nice discution.
Okay, some of the stuff I listed was more standard stuff for the beginer so that they have an idea about what they are getting into. If you have like huge mega habitates with all this stuff tossed about things get differnt very quickly.

For example, soaking baths are only needed if you can't keep the animals area humidy high, most people can't, hence the need for baths. I am a little surprised a long time Herp owner hasn't herd of iodine baths! It's more for the human then the animal, but it is a pritty standard treatment to keep bacteria levels on reptile skin from going crazy.

Also, The UV light is for herps that don't get natural sun, you have lots of natral sun you don't need a UV light but it's a good precaution.

Finally, Vitimin suplements are most importent when the animal is a baby and growing. Many individuals will do fine without them but for the magority that don't, well they die or are horibbly disfigured from it. Life span for most spiecies can not yet be accuratly judged because the idea of supliments is fairly new and we just don't have old enough animals yet to know how big a differnce it will make. Heck, 4 years was good for an inguan 20 years ago, now the predicted life span is more like 20 years.

On the note of wild collecting, I have read posts by people who just picked up some local snake/turtle to keep and want to know what to do with it. That was what my post was directed at, not the collection of wild sample base stock. However, I am not good with the idea of taken them from the wild to be sold as pets because that does nothing for domesticateing them.

Others mentioned how taking stock is just as bad as taking for non stock resons, but their is a differnce. If someone is getting a wild stock animal they probubly know what they are doing. The other half of the equation is most reptiles are just to darn hard to ketch LOL, so their eggs are taken ensted.

I hope I clarified and added a bit more to the conversation, it's nice to know so many people here are againced wild collecting

-Darcie

P.S. (domestic box turtles and wild box turtles aren't the same thing,lol)

 

[Darcie]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (cephalotus88 @ Oct. 13 2002,01:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hmmm..in Reptiles and a few sites, they state people will often collect LEGALLY one or two wild animals to add a fresh blood line for thier breed stock.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Yup, but you need to get a licence and the amount you take is moniterd. It's like a deer hunting licence but it's for collecting the animal not killing it. This way they can make sure the population isn't depleated like it was with the eastern box turtle in the 70's. Did you know they attually had to take domectic ones and reestablish the population because people wiped them out so fast? What happend is pet stores would pay like $5 a piece so local kids would collect as many as they could. BOOM! No turtles left to make baby turtles. Same problem with over er eating the green iguana. They had to restock the wilds and then give the natives little igguana farms

So, as you can see, their are needs for laws on collecting because when everone is alloud to, they do

 

[cephalotus88]

Exactly. Thats what herping is about. Enjoying and making sure your license is valid

. Keep on truckin-Zach

 

[Pyro]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Darcie @ Oct. 14 2002,11:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1) If you have like huge mega habitates with all this stuff tossed about things get differnt very quickly.

2) I am a little surprised a long time Herp owner hasn't herd of iodine baths!  It's more for the human then the animal, but it is a pritty standard treatment to keep bacteria levels on reptile skin from going crazy.

3) Also, The UV light is for herps that don't get natural sun, you have lots of natral sun you don't need a UV light but it's a good precaution.  

4) Finally, Vitimin suplements are most importent when the animal is a baby and growing.  Many individuals will do fine without them but for the magority that don't, well they die or are horibbly disfigured from it.  Life span for most spiecies can not yet be accuratly judged because the idea of supliments is fairly new and we just don't have old enough animals yet to know how big a differnce it will make.  Heck, 4 years was good for an inguan 20 years ago, now the predicted life span is more like 20 years.  

5) P.S. (domestic box turtles and wild box turtles aren't the same thing,lol)[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Please allow me to reply

1) 10G, 20G, 30G and 55G terrariums do not count as "huge mega habitats" IMHO. All my systems are of that size but they are dynamic; real earth, rocks, bark, plants, etc. They are almost close cycle and they are more clean than your typical newspaper set-up. They take a lot of work to get there but they are worth it after the fact.

2) Don't be suprised. Soaking can actually be dangerous because it can lead to fungal infections of the skin. It really doesn't take that high a humidity level to assist in shedding, simply pouring a couple cups of warm water into the media when your herp is close to shedding actually does more than enough. And as far as bacteria go, there are very few reptile pathogens that can infect humans, the main one is Salmonella and the best way to control it is to wash your hands.

3) I never said that UV wasn't important only that you do not have to pay huge amounts of money for specialty bulbs when you can get the exact same results with any old sunlight bulb. And I would never recommend trying to light a herp cage with sunligh unless you are trying to bar-b-q your herp

4) Feeding a well balanced diet and gut loading can eliminate the need for supliments. Think about it, how many herps go out and eat calcium/Vit D powder in the wild? And life spans can be judged, ask Audobon.

5) You never clarified that fact. You simply stated that it was wrong to keep box turtles.

The point I was trying to get across is that the best thing to do is to do your own research and not just take what someone else tells you as gospel. What works for you might not work for someone else and what works for them might not work for you. You have to find what works for you and I can guarantee that it is not going to be something someone else told you.

 

[Houstonherp]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Dyflam @ Oct. 12 2002,8:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Joachim @ Oct. 12 2002,02:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just out of curiosity. Do breed animals deserve other?

Joachim[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Huh?

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I'm kind of at a loss as to what this means as well, but if I take it correctly, you are questioning whether breeder animals deserve to be in captivity as well?...I'll take it as such.

In MY humble opinion, that depends on your viewpoint about the human/animal relationship in general. If you agree with having a (captive born) dog as a pet, I see no reason why you should have any problem with a (captive Born) reptile as a pet. Your pet dog is not allowed to roam free (or at least it shouldn't be, if you are truly caring for the animal as your pet), and neither should your pet reptile roam free.

A very well known herpetoculturist (Phillippe des Vosjoli) wrote a series of articles for The Vivarium Magazine many years back, asking how you could gauge if reptiles were "happy" in a captive setting. Although I don't remember the entire artivle series, he based his findings on 1), the highly instinctive nature of reptiles, and 2), their general health. He surmised that captive reptiles were "happy" if they fulfilled all of their usual functions of their wild counterparts while in captivity. These functions would include survival, obtaining food, growth, maintaining general body health, movement and - most importantly - producing offspring. These factors had to be studied at length in order to determine what it takes to keep each species of reptile in the correct manner to have them produce a new generation, and in many cases it is not as easy as sticking a snake in a plastic shoe box for its entire life!

To sum up, the decision about whether reptiles should be kept as pets is no different than keeping any other animal as a pet. It's a personal decision for everyone. My point was that you get healthier, less stressed and less parasite-infested reptiles when buying captive born instead of wild-caught, and you don't deplete the wild population in the process. In my mind this is a win-win situation.