A true newbie question -- How far can things be crossed?

[mcantrell]

I have a complete and total newbie question.

I see all kinds of neato crosses between various Sundews, but, I am somewhat new to growing plants, so... I guess my question is, is there a limit as to how far you can cross one?

I am not talking about crossing 2 crosses, I know sundew hybrids are sterile.

What I mean is, would it be possible to cross a tuberous with a cape sundew, for example? Or a D. Filiformis with a Pygmy? Is there a limit as to how far apart two sundews can be before they stop being something you can hybridize?

 

[Est]

There certainly is. As you've mentioned, one of the earliest levels of incompatibility is sterile hybrids. Other intraspecies barriers exist as well, including those which prevent the formation of viable seed.

Still, it's worth giving these things a go as not all possible viable crosses are known (and if someone does know, I'd love to be enlightened.) If you don't want to do "random" hybridization to test for viability, it may be more useful to attempt crosses between species known to grow in geographically similar areas and there's a better chance that the two are genetically compatible.

Morphology can be misleading and it's quite possible that two morphologically distinct plants are genetically/ancestrally similar (and thus crossable.) Best of luck!

Note: I'm sure there'll be someone coming shortly with a more complete answer about viable Drosera hybrids.

 

[rattler]

other than what Est said the main issues as to why there arent more hybrids prolly has lil to do with compatibility.....more to do with having a grower paying close attention to his plants and what are blooming and getting two plants that are likely to be able to hybridize to bloom at the same time.....which is why most hybrids so far have been from common undemanding species, or species such as the petolaris and pygmy groups that have a cycle that tends to make them sync up even in cultivation.....other issues are when crossing species such as rotundifolia, filliformis, capensis, nidiformis and those is that no matter what you do your going to get seeds and you have to grow out a whole lot of seedlings to see if something looks off that might be a hybrid.....

 

[Not a Number]

Wrap your head around this:

http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cpn/samples/Cult291Colch.htm

Salient points:

Sundew hybrids between species with different chromosome numbers are usually sterile.

In general, a sundew hybrid is either not formed at all after cross-pollinating two species with different chromosome counts, or the resultant hybrid is sterile and totally unable to produce seed. Fernando Rivadavia (another tinker) and I have found just a few exceptions to this general rule. We were surprised when the cross between D. burmannii from Australia and D. sessilifolia from Brazil proved to be fertile. (We are constantly debating about whether they should be considered separate species.) Amongst South African sundews, D. dielsiana, D. nidiformis, and D. venusta can all be crossed and produce fertile hybrids. Most Drosera hybrids involving species with the same chromosome count are perfectly fertile.​

Chromosome counts for many of the Drosera species can be found in figure 3 in this article. See the references for other sources.
http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/90/1/123

Cross Pollination technique
http://www.terraforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89161

 

[Pyro]

And in the same vein as NaN's post you can cross hybrids of petiolaris complex and get seed. There are some that are 3 and 4 parent crosses out there.

 

[jimscott]

You have no idea the "can of worms" you raise... Speciation and Taxonomy is almost as hotly debated as religion! But feel free to cross them. Who knows... look what happened when a butterwort and a VFT was crossed...

 

[mcantrell]

So no crossing D. capensis and D. scorpioides to make the most annoying Cape Sundew (one with Gemmae!) ever? Drat!

Interesting stuff. Back when I was obsessing about Yellow Alpine Strawberries I read something interesting about making a mutant strawberry by using some chemical to break the chromosome count down so it would hybridize "incorrectly", but I haven't read enough about that yet.

Ah, found it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragaria_×_vescana

Researchers treated tissue from a Fragaria vesca plant with colchicine to create a mutant plant with four sets of chromosomes. This mutant was then crossed with a Fragaria x ananassa plant, and vigorous fertile offspring were obtained. The offspring were found to be decaploid, (having ten sets of chromosomes).

 

[CPlantaholic]

So no crossing D. capensis and D. scorpioides to make the most annoying Cape Sundew (one with Gemmae!) ever? Drat!

Actually, I'm pretty sure you could do that combination using genetic engineering, but not by simply crossing them. It would probably be pretty difficult, though.
you could sure make some crazy-looking stuff using genetic engineering w/ cps.

 

[Brokken]

So no crossing D. capensis and D. scorpioides to make the most annoying Cape Sundew (one with Gemmae!) ever? Drat!

Interesting stuff. Back when I was obsessing about Yellow Alpine Strawberries I read something interesting about making a mutant strawberry by using some chemical to break the chromosome count down so it would hybridize "incorrectly", but I haven't read enough about that yet.

Ah, found it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragaria_×_vescana

Not break down the count... but prevent meiosis from occurring correctly. By arresting meiosis, you can end up with gametes where all the chromosomes pair up correctly. The chemical cholchicine is often used to create these polyploid hybrids (such as triticale) though it is sometimes known to occur naturally - as is speculated in the species Drosera anglica.

 

[Tamlin Dawnstar]

This is an excellent question!

First off, not all Drosera crosses are sterile. Between members of the genus sharing a common karyotype, e.g. 20N (this particular number is common amongst the South African species) fertile crosses are certainly possible - just as in the case here with our genus Sarracenia. Many complex crosses can be expected where species sharing a common karyotype have overlapping ranges. Once there is significant variance in the"N" there's not much chance of any successful pollination.

The petiolaris group is a good example of how these complex crosses can happen. Look at what growes have produced in the last decade alone, not to mention what is to come What limits these crosses in habitat is isolation; the species are widely divided - usually by desert like hell on earth. There is considerable room to further reduce the number of species in this section of Droseracae for some aspiring PhD! I suspect many of these so called "species" are not (and the same for many pygmy's). Rangeschange over time...lots of time (!) and connections get lost in million year drifts. Species or hybrid is a very opinionated thingy.

I suspect many of the pygmy species are capable of making fertile crosses between species, there are many already in circulation. Seed is not often produced in quantity, but it happens.

Not to mention the inevitable crosses possible amongst many of the South African species what can't keep their hands off'n each other....scandalous wanton crossing anywhere the ranges are sympatric. What a mess! (and a word to the wary if you collect these, when different species share a common flowering (antithesis) they may get it on when your not chaperoning them, and the seed you *think* is Drosera dielsiana may in fact be some *******o result of all this. Tsk tsk. You'd need to be crazy to take on S. Af. taxonomy. Do yourself a favor if you think you have academic interest in this and DON'T!

A simple websearch for "karyotype numbers for Drosera" should allow you to find commonality in this regard between different species, and could suggest many interesting experiments.

Refer to the "article" section for Ivan Snider's fine article on pollinating proceedure. (Yes, I deliberately spelled that name wrong, payback for the Listserve drumming I got over my publication of Drosera 'Rhodesian Beauty' in the CPN, harrrrumph!). It's a fine article though.

Please experiment! You never know what beautiful results wait for you and the world!

 

[Halt]

What about different genus? Such as Sarracenia x Nepenthes? Dionaea x Sarracenia? Sarracenia x Drosera? Has anyone every tried trying this? Even though their flowers are different, who said it's impossible. The skys the limit.

 

[Not a Number]

This list may be of use.

http://www005.upp.so-net.ne.jp/khelljuhg/all_hybrids.htm

 

[Tamlin Dawnstar]

The sky IS the limit, and nothing happens from doing nothing next. The love of the hobby comes from the learning and growing, yes!

Uhhh, Jim, exactly what DID happen with that butterwort/flytrap cross? I bet the details are captivating and juicy! He probably trapped her because she was stuck on him. It was that perfume she wore....

 

[jimscott]

You remember, Audrey 2, of course! (Potty-mouthed plant that spoke ebonics)