Drosera "Sp. Chapada Diamantina"

[Fernando Rivadavia]

William,

A few more comments. In regards to D."sp. Chapada Diamantina", I did not spread this plant in cultivation and have no idea what it was originally.

As for my "hopefully accurate recalls" of my trips, I'd like you to know that I write careful field notes, which often keep me awake long into the night on CP trips, even though I have to wake up at sunrise the following day. This and herborization is the hardest, but most essential part of any CP trip.

As for the supposed lack of "detailed description of the material you saw, and few photos" in my field trip accounts, please remember that countless herbarium collections were made, available to all who truly wish to study them, and which will hopefully soon be available in publication, all neatly "digested" and ready for anyone's consumption.

As for pics, you should be happy that there are any pics at all for all those plants which were virtually unknown until 15 years ago, especially of species which have not even been published (you know anybody else that spreads pictures of new species before they're published??). So please don't whine if some pics are not of top quality, since this is often really hard to do when you're kneeling on quartz gravel or lying in the mud, mosquitoes are buzzing in your ears, sweat is running into your eyes, and lightining is striking the hillsides all around you. Especially cause you can always ask me about any detail that is not clear in pictures. I have tons of pics, but unfortunately once again, I can't scan them during office hours or stay home to do it all. So please forgive me if all my pics are not available to all on the web free of charge.

>Such a description is nowhere but in your head.

Yes it is, in much more detail in all my herbarium specimens... Whatever is not preserved in herbarium specimens or in my head is written on the web and in my field notes (which I assure you will not be placed inside my grave).

As for the D. aliciae/sessilifolia mess regarding chromosome numbers, AAARGH! I can't believe this somehow turned around so that you think ***I*** created it all!! Or that I wouldn't know how to tell a D.aliciae from a D.sessilifolia! YIKES! I'm trying to clear up the mess OTHERS have made, please!

What happened was that a chromosome number of 2n=80 was published for D.sessilifolia, but the plants were actually D.aliciae!! And before you can complain, Barry Meyers-Rice has an article of mine about this mess (and with several new chromosome numbers for Drosera in S.America) in his hands right now, awaiting publication in CPN, OK?

Fernando

 

[Fernando Rivadavia]

One last topic William: Your seed testa research.

Your constant "pitch" for seeds demands a reply.

Please don't take it personally that I haven't sent you seeds, but as I told you before, I am literally SWAMPED every year with requests for seeds from people all over the world and I simply do not have the time to help everyone, although I did do this for many years, never once asking for $$ in return.

I have maintained a few outlets responsible for spreading any seeds I collect, simply because I lack the time to do this on my own.

When you initially wrote to me asking for seeds, you were one in a million, and there was simply no reason why I should make an exception for you. You had an interesting project in mind: to draw the seeds of all species so people could use this as a reference to ID their material.

But I have dedicated my efforts once too often to people's enthusiastic projects which slowly withered into oblivion. So as I told you before, until you show any real work I am simply not going to open an exception for you.

Although you have since proved that you are very keen on keeping these plants in cultivation and that you have every interest in clearing up taxonomic confusions involving plants in cultivation, the truth is that you have shown absolutely nothing to the world regarding your seed testa project, or did I miss something?

On all thse discussions I've taken part of, I always see you writing how people should publish, publish, publish (especially me). So what have you published regarding Drosera seed testa so far?? Where's your contribution to the "future" you're always so worried about?

Please don't think that I am picking on you and will never help you no matter what. I'm just hoping you'll understand that in order to obtain support for your projects, you have to show some results 1st, you have to prove that you're not just inventing an excuse to obtain rare seed for cultivation and that you are truly willing to dedicate your time to generate scientific knowledge.

You do not need rare seed to start your project. You can very well do a "rough draft" using the species readily available in cultivation. And you are certainly not gonna be able to convince any herbarium to lend you holotypes without publishing stuff first. So forget trying to compare any seed you have with type material for the moment. The best you could probably do is obtain seed collected from type locations.

But if you simply compared all the seed you could get your hands on and published something on the variability you found, this would be of tremendous scientific value. Even (and especially!) for "common" plants like D.intermedia, D.capillaris, D.capensis, which are actually very variable and often taxonomically very messy.

So for now, try to forget about publishing a seed testa guide for ALL the ~150 species of Drosera, because until you prove to the world through publications that you are seriously working on this project, you will not get the backing you want and need. Think a bit smaller to begin with. Focus on one species or one group and then slowly work your way up.

For example, I intend to one day write a complete taxonomic work on the Drosera of Brazil, maybe S.America, and who knows (if I live long enough) maybe even a monograph for the whole genus. But 1st I gotta start with a few species, one by one, or else I'll never get anywhere.

So don't give up on your project, it's a fantastic idea. But set yourself some goals (this species 1st, that group 2nd) and work your way up, publishing data along the way. You might not finish all ~150 species, but it'll be better than never having gotten anywhere...

Good luck!
Fernando

 

[The Griffin]

Fernando,

I want that taxonomic monograph now! Could I have it by next week?
Not really, as interesting as it would be. Many of us(me included) are lazy about this sort of thing and hope we get seed that is labled right. It is admirable what some like William are trying to do.
I appreciate that Fernando is taking his time when publishing new species, to make sure it's done right. It is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't " dilemna, because if you publish too quickly and then find out you were wrong about something, then you have a mess in people's collection. I don't know how may Neps people are into Drosera also, but what is now called N. mindanaoensis was mislabled as N. petiolata, and Phill Mann discovered the true one in..1996?
There are still mislabled plants out there.
The problem with taking your time , is that someone can take the credit for your discovery if they publish the name while you are checking and re-checking.
I am not 100% sure of the timing, but Allen Lowrie has been looking at different variants of D. indica for some time, and was aware of a form that had little yellow structures on it's leaves, but was not sure yet where it fit in. Somebody else found it and now we have D. hartmeyerorem(sp?). I was told he was aware of this plant since the late 80s, early 90s. It may end up that D. indica will end up diversified more(maybe in subspecies), as there are locales that have plants only a few cm tall and others that have some 50 cm tall! Quite a difference for one species.
Anyway, now my break is over and I have to get back to work.

Regards,

Joe

PS I was one in a million in asking Fernando for seeds too, and I was not one of the lucky ones either, if it makes anyone happy.

 

[Tamlin Dawnstar]

Hi Fernando,

Thanks for the rebuttal, some points of which do reassure me. I hadn't considered the field notes (I hope they are duplicated and filed in good places.  IS there any chance of my obtaining a copy of these?) and of course there is the herborized material, which I didn't consider.  That's an excellent start.  I still encourage you to take lots of photos with your new digital camera, but don't do it in a lightning storm!  I don't want to see the goose that takes the golden photo roasted in the process.  I will continue to whine for the photos, with your permission: consider me the official whiner for CPers everywhere if you will (and I, like the rest of us are indebted for what you have provided).  As to the "free" comment, how about someday burning a CD (yes, I know, you have a lot on your plate as it is) and marketing it?  I'd buy it in a heartbeat!
Free isn't the issue, and the proceeds could support your research.  Availability is what I would like to see moe of: not all of us are going to Brasil, sadly/.  OK. You make your point well, I am too demanding - but I hope you know it is my great love of this genus that motivates me and nothing more than that.

As to the D. aliciae/sessilifolia if you read what I said, I specificaly sstated I did not mean to imply you made any sort of mess with that (!!!!), and used it only to illustrate that these things happen as a result of insufficient attention to detail.  I think we agree at least in that!  Thanks for your work in cleaning up the mess, sheesh!  I have enough words in my mouth without you putting more in there, LOL.

As for your comments regarding my own work, as you said, I am One in a Million, but I like to think that is a positive quality.  The initial scans I sent you are unfortunately no longer possible as I explained in my post.  I currently cannot afford the equipment I need, but this will change, and then I am going to bury you in seed testa photos, count on that!

 Meanwhile, I will continue to seek native seed for the study.  Like you, I first have to source the material I wish to study, and like you I must attend to the details of confirming the material and not rush into things.  You have been generous in the past to many, and I certainly don't imply otherwise.  Believe me, there are many other supportive seed donors who have a little more faith in me than you do, and if you like I will NOT nag you further.  Keep in mind, if I don't try to find sources for native seed, then I never will obtain it.  The squeaky wheel gets the grease.  Despite your feelings that I should concentrate on specific groups, I believe the time to ask for native seed is when someone is going to where the native seed is, irrespective of specific sections.  The potential is best then for possibly getting it!   My methods work for me, usually.  Also, in my initial letters to you, I offered you references, and I sent you copies of the work which was then being performed.  I was not then producing the photos (although this will soon change) and was acting as an adjunct with the Senior Seed Analyst of the Idaho State Herbarium to source and provide seed for the study.  He was not a Drosera man, and had some faith in my expertise.  What you see as whining and begging is nothing more than a dedicated effort to elicit some positive response from the community to produce a very worthy and much needed reference.  Despite whatever doubts or suspicions you may have, I will continue to plod on, with or without your assistance: and BTW you asked me how it was going, and I told you.  SO, in short, your past and current refusal to help provide good source material is completely up to you.    You certainly have been consistent in your views and responses!  Someday I hope to prove myself to you and the community and hopefully earn your approval and respect for the effort, if not your material assistance.  This testa reference is going to happen but there is more work in sourcing the seed needed than in the act of photographing it.  I can't do this until I purchase a very good digital dissecting microscope, and believe me, the moment I can afford such, I will continue with Phase Two, and this is not too far off!  As to never helping me, my dear friend, you help me constantly.  Maybe not directly with seed, but in many other ways, and I am not unappreciative of the time you have generously spared to me.

In conclusion, you have reassured me that you have afforded posterity a reliable means of assessing your research through the modalities you employ.  That's good to know.  Other modalities maight make the information more centrally available to others, but it's up to you, not me, as to whether you will employ them.  I made my pitch, but you aren't buying, so let's leave off of that.

I hope my concerns haven't offended you, and I take no offense at your comments regarding my studies.  Well not much, anyways.  Besides, I'll win you over in the end, just wait and see!

If you are interested, here are some examples of seed testa photos.  Future photos will not have this quality. Unfortunately I was not able to source the more rare species for inclusion before my associate left the herbarium and it's equipment for employment in the private sector. Sometimes, speed is of the essence, lest valuable opportunity be lost.

http://www.cpforums.org/gallery....zed.jpg

http://www.cpforums.org/gallery....n_100xa

http://www.cpforums.org/gallery....zed.jpg

http://www.cpforums.org/gallery....zed.jpg

http://www.cpforums.org/gallery....zed.jpg

http://www.cpforums.org/gallery....zed.jpg

http://www.cpforums.org/gallery....zed.jpg