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For Sale VFT juvenile B-52's from seed.

  • Thread starter woodbridge
  • Start date
Young B52 starters/juveniles. Seeds from my homegrown stock. 6 to 7 months old and very healthy.

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U.S. only. 4 plants for $15. Money Order only. I will pay shipping of the plants bare root in sphagnum moss.

PM if interested.
 
If these are seed-grown plants then they are not B52. Flytraps must be propagated as exact clones to maintain the cultivar label and that cannot be done from seed. If these are the result of a self-pollinated B52 plant or a cross between two B52 plants, they should be labeled as B52 x B52 or B52 x self.
 
If these are seed-grown plants then they are not B52. Flytraps must be propagated as exact clones to maintain the cultivar label and that cannot be done from seed. If these are the result of a self-pollinated B52 plant or a cross between two B52 plants, they should be labeled as B52 x B52 or B52 x self.

Nimbulan, let me start with, you are wrong. Please remove your post from this thread. If you would like to discuss cultivars, there are a couple options on this forum for that...this is not the correct thread for that. My posting is completely accurate...these are seed grown from B52s. The mother plants came from a respectable Biological Research Center and pollination took place under controlled conditions.

Cultivars start simple, then get a little more complicated, that is why it would be better in a different post.

If you can not determine the source of the following information...let me know, and I will quote the sources to you. Hope you can use this information in some of you future posts....and that it generates much needed discussion and understanding of VFT cultivars.

The preferred method to propagate most Dionaea muscipula
cultivars is vegetatively......this is the simplest way to
ensure that the genetic integrity of the cultivar is
retained. However, it is possible to propagate cultivars
sexually from seed provided that the offspring do in fact
retain the characteristics as they are described in the
cultivar registration.

2.4 Cultivars differ in their mode of origin and
reproduction....Whatever the means of propagation, only
those plants which maintain the characters the define a
particular cultivar may be included within that cultivar.

2.12. An assemblage of individual plants grown grown from
seed.....may form a cultivar when it meets the criteia
laid down in Art 2.3 and when it can be distinguished
consistently by one or more characters even though the
individual plants of the assemblage may not neccessarily
be genetically uniform.

2.14 Plants of a line (which result from repeated self-
fertilization or inbreeding) may form a cultivar.

Hope this info is helpful to all.
 
I'm not trying to rain on your parade here, I just want to avoid confusion about the identity of these plants. Many very nice plants (and even new cultivars) have been created through self-pollination of existing cultivars and B52 certainly has some excellent genes to pass on to offspring.

While it's true that this is the case with some cultivars (I.E. Drosera x californica 'Portland Sunrise' or Sarracenia leucophylla 'Hurricane Creek White', and Nepenthes grex batches are done by some nurseries) the vast majority of CP cultivars can only be propagated vegetatively, and most explicitly state so in the cultivar description. ALL flytrap cultivars must be propagated vegetatively to maintain the cultivar name.

There is at least one website claiming that flytrap cultivars can be reproduced via seed, but I think you will find that almost nobody in the CP community would accept a seed-grown plant as matching its parents' cultivar. Even if that were the case, it still requires a very detailed cultivar description (which B52 does not have to my knowledge) and the plants would need to be fully mature before being evaluated and should not be labeled as such until then.
 
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nimbulan is the correct one here; due to the nature of Dionaea cultivars (the fact that there are so many that are near-identical cultivars and therefore registered more like genetic/clonal lines than visual cultivars based on appearances and parentage alone) and the likelihood of being able to produce a plant that is exactly the same as the parent from seed, NO DIONAEA CULTIVAR can be propagated reliably from seeds and so they CANNOT be labeled as the same. Most cultivars in fact are only propagated via vegetative means because of the lottery run of trying to get the exact same thing via sexual reproduction, and the ones that can be (like several Drosera species cultivars or locality named Sarracenia) are able to be because when selfed they reliably result in the same desired appearance generation after generation and it is stated that they can be produced via seeds; Dionaea do not do so and no cultivar has been described as being capable of such.
Your plants are B52 offspring and may be similar, but cannot be labeled B52, ever. Many B52 offspring have been given other cultivar names previously due to slight differences they will exhibit, and so no matter how controlled the pollination is you cannot guarantee a perfect replica of the cultivar.
 
Oh I hate absolutes, and lets not go off on how some of these VFT cultivars are probably nothing more than genetic variations or normalities that should never be given cultivar status in the first place. Lets stick to the incorrect :-D statements made about the B52 here.

Lets ignore the International Society for Horticultural Science which basicly gives ICPS authority to register CP cultivars, and ignore the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants, and ignore the ICPS cultivar registration process....for just one second.

Since this post is about VFT's... and some wonderfully strong and robust seedlings from the B52. I am assuming you both have registered VFT cultivars with the ICPS and know the registration form contains a "Propagation" method.

Lets look at the record for Dionaea 'Big Mouth'.... Propagation: leaf cuttings and division of offshoots.
Now lets look at Dionaea 'Angelwings'....Propagation: leaf cuttings.
Now lets look at a B52 sister, Dionaea 'A2'.....No Propagation method specified.
Now lets look at the subject of this post Dionaea 'B52'....No Propagation method specified.

There are also others in the list of VFT cultivars that do not specify a propagation method. If the ICPS as a community has so declared that "ALL VFT cultivars" must be propagated vegetativly and the registrant has no say in the mater....Please show me the ICPS document the states that....and I will :hail:
 
I have registered other genera as cultivars, and at at least for publishing in CPN and absolutely for submitting the official registration form as compliant to ICRN rules you MUST include a means of propagation, regardless of species or genus, and that includes all Dionaea cultivars; this cannot be ignored just for an argument's sake because it is a basis for recognizing a cultivar and how it can be distributed, and in this case absolutes are part of the regulations. Even if supposedly nowhere can one find a propagation method specified for this cultivar (and I guess if I wanted I could email the ICRN authority since I have their address and ask for the registration description for B52...), the description does state in several locations it is a "Clone germinated by Henning von Schmeling," and clones cannot be reproduced via seeds.
At the very least even still, as nimbulan stated you cannot sell them as B52 at the moment anyway simply via one particular technicality: the description is largely based on size and color within a certain set of conditions and compared to other clones, and as seedlings they certainly haven't demonstrated whether or not they reach the size, coloration, or vigor as adults as the parent plant.
 
I have to agree with nimublan and hcarlton. Most experienced carnivorous plant growers know you cannot attach the registered cultivar name of a hybrid plant to plants grown from seed collected from that mother plant, even if selfed. The B52 cultivar is a hybrid so there will be variation between seedlings due to the varied genetic makeup of the hybrid, variations that will not fit the cultivar description for most if not all of the seedlings. Whether the cultivar description states a propagation method or not has no value in this discussion, with VFT hybrids you can only get plants 100% true to the parent plant genetics/characteristics by propagating by vegetative means. What you have for sale are juvenile plants grown from seed collected from the cultivar Dionaea 'B52', not junenile 'B52' plants from seed.

Both nimbulan and hcarlton are excellent resources to learn from and I hope you can take their input as educational and not confrontational. Their aim is to educate and prevent even more mislabeled plants from being circulated, there are far too many out there already due to lack of education/understanding about use of cultivar names especially among people new to growing carnivorous plants.

BTW, I have seen seed from this cultivar produce some really nice flytraps regardless of what the mother plant was crossed with.

Just my two cents.
 
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Ok. So it seems the wording has rubbed some and it could have been put in a way we are more accustomed to seeing.

I’ve show you that the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants (ICNCP) clearly allows for cultivars from seed.
I’ve shown you well established and respected businesses acknowledge cultivar propagation from seed…Dionaea specifically.
I’ve shown you the ICPS database on the subject of this post does not have a propagation method specified/required.
I show you now the propagation method item from the ICPS example of a cultivar registration form.
This is the actual example given by the ICPS, and on the form you submit…. propagation method is Optional.

13. (Optional) Preferred method(s) of propagation of this cultivar.
Vegetative, but seed is fine as long as the progeny are anthocyanin-free.

A lot of we don’t do it that way about this post. And some flat out incorrect statements. These plants are what they are…VFT juveniles from B52 seeds. If the verbiage does not conform to an establish norm that some here might like…please let me know how it should be reworded (thanks DJ57). If it is factual and justified, I will reword it… I am very reasonable. I also respect, value, and always try to learn from the knowledge of others, and factual information is very important.

Also, I am now out of this batch. I will have more babies from B52's in the near future. Everyone who received these knows what they are…baby B52s. Oh wait….maybe that should be babies from a B52. Anyway, with proper care I can almost guarantee they will have ginormous traps. Enjoy.
 
  • #10
Yes you are correct that no propagation method is specified in the registration of B52, at least it is not displayed in the database. However, I think the issue is that you are assuming that the propagation method not specified means "all methods are valid." As pointed out previously, Flytraps very rarely breed true and I'm quite confident if you look through all flytrap cultivar registrations you will not find a single one that actually specifies that it can be propagated by seed. The cultivar description for B52 is also not detailed enough to be basing a visual ID on.

But even if your position that the cultivar can be propagated by seed is true, you still cannot label seedlings as the cultivar until they mature and it can be verified that they match the cultivar description. It's not just a matter of avoiding confusion - do you really want someone to buy these plants from you then coming back 2 years later complaining that they look different from their friend's B52 plant? They are not clones so there is no way you can guarantee that they will look and grow the same.
 
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