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Growing intermediate/highland plants HOT

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Anyone here lives in lowland proper climates and still grows intermediates/highlanders? I haven't been growing nepenthes for too long. 2-3 years. Of which, intermediates and crosses with intermediate/highland plants for last year and finally gambling with highlanders. Average year round temps where I live are 26C. Summers can hit 35C+ or even touch 40C on occasion (haven't had highlanders in this climate yet - before next summer, I'll have a balcony I can cool much better, so hopefully will never have to). Nights almost never go below 20C - coldest month is January and average lows for it are more like 23C.

I don't usually post pics, since most of my plants are juveniles and not really producing anything impressive, but just sharing some to show that I'm not randomly trolling, I am really trying to grow these.

Many of these pics are slightly older, as the plants are still putting out pitchers after the summer stress and monsoon has just begun.

Nepenthes reinwardtiana red (highland)
D7xBYKlUYAEu4r8


Nepenthes Robcantleyi
D2Kr4aJX4AANVZF


Purchased as Nepenthes rajah x veitchii, probably is a robcantleyi/truncata x veitchii or plain veitchii or something.
D2Ki0AJXcAE3jkx


Nepenthes Miranda
DszNMeiWwAI9y1z


Nepenthes ventricosa
DpnuHbmXcAAGeyy


More robcantleyi x veitchii - these are doing fine even in peak summer!
DoPnw7cXgAAwRcl


Nepenthes mirabilis var globosa x hamata
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More highlandish.

Nepenthes x kinnabaluensis seedling super slow. this is almost two months old. Not sure because temperatures or it is like that only.
D-yQVtuWwAAXc6x


Nepenthes macrophylla seedlings - also similar age and stage. Sigh. This was probably not such a bright idea.
D-yQTNpXYAAPyGF

D-yQRNHXYAAL4Pa

D-yQOtdW4AAIfRt


There are more, but photos are on my phone and my data cable isn't working. These I found posted on Twitter on and off. Will figure out how to post the pics from the phone, but there is a nepenthes macrophylla (recent) and an x alisaputrana (2+months) - not been with me for long, but not dead either. Both starting to form new leaves now that monsoon is here. Will click and post pics later.
 
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Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
171
Location
Nalasopara (near Bombay/Mumbai)
Tweeted the pics I had on my phone to add them here. lol.

Nepenthes alisaputrana (arrived without pitchers two months ago. New leaf finally growing
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Nepenthes macrophylla
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Nepenthes jamban
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Nepenthes mira - I had this for 3-4 months now, but it really HATED the summer, and I sort of missed noticing that till too late.
D-8quJqVAAA8ES6


Heliamphora ciliata - not sudden deathed yet. Fingers crossed.
D-8rKb6UIAAJFs6


Nepenthes sibuyanensis - arrived in poor condition, now recovering
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Highland microgreens - I had the bright idea to try a less expensive "highland mix" of seeds, thinking it was a good general way to see what germinates in my climate. Only... now that it has germinated, I'm going to have a long wait to know what is what. The seeds contained all sorts of thing. veitchii, lowii, fusca, alisaputrana, edwardsiana.... highland stuff. No idea what germinated and what didn't. I guess this is one experiment with a long time to results - IF they don't die before being big enough to ID...
D-8rQ9PVUAApEkP

D-8rOFqUYAINdod
 

nepenthesl0ve

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i wish you luck with your highlanders! I grow in intermediate conditions (85F day 65F night) and grow hybrids and highlanders pretty well.

i tried the highland mix seeds as well and mine look about same as yours. was warned after that they are probably a very low value species sold as a mix to get higher price and interest. we shall find out eventually!
 
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Your "jamban" aren't jamban; dubia, inermis, or hybrids of either rather (and if the other "highland" seeds were bought off eBay, they probably aren't highland species, or possibly even species, at all; any actual species will also probably be poached, and so henceforth definitely should be avoided purchasing again). Most of the plants seen here are either typically rather adaptable plants, or the true highland ones do seem to be showing effects of higher heat than they like (anything with rajah involved, or species like N. mira are definitely going to scream if they don't get cold nights). Certainly if you can set up a very cool location they may do fine, but there are very few true highland species that can be acclimated to any other climate.
 
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[MENTION=9012]hcarlton[/MENTION] I got the jamban seedlings as seedgrown jamban from Kamil. None of my highlanders have been with me longer than 4-5 months at this point, unless my rajah x veitchii really turns out to be one (probably not). There may potentially be hybrids, of course, but I don't understand why you think they aren't jamban at all. Is something wrong with how they look? I am not able to recognize species from juvenile pitchers.

The kinnabaluensis, macrophylla and "highland mix" seedlings are indeed off Ebay
 
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On broader note, I am aware of the possibility of seeds on Ebay being being potentially poached. And I had considered not buying them at all. However, I have not had good results from seeds purchased from online growers who are willing to ship to India, so if I must grow from seed, there aren't a whole lot of options. The shape of the seedlings does seem to suggest at least some of them are highland (I read somewhere that lowland seedlings tend to have broader leaves with indistinct pitchers, while highland ones have more "leaf" shaped leaves and distinct pitchers. The small leaves with pitchers are also thicker than those I've seen on lowland seedlings, so I am holding on to hope that the seeds are legit even if their collection may not be.

Am I happy about poaching? not really. But I doubt poaching is going to end from not purchasing seeds on Ebay. If the government of the place from where they are listed can't be bothered to put a stop to it, there isn't a whole lot not buying them is going to achieve. You have clear listings of seeds collected from specific places and a money trail. If authorities were interested in stopping this, it doesn't get simpler.
 
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N. jamban does not have that growth pattern at all, and even when young starts very early on showing the tubby pitchers it's famed for on long tendrils, while dubia and inermis have very stocky, erect stems, relatively short tendrils and narrow immature pitchers that hang right off the ends of the leaf. There are natural jamban x dubia hybrids, but the influence of dubia is obvious in them from early on so if yours have jamban in them, they're a jamban x dubia/inermis cross. Shape of seedlings is also entirely species-dependent. Yes, more lowland species tend to have broader leaves with pitchers attached right at the tips than highlanders do, but this does not always hold true and a lot of the really common "intermediate" type plants can go either way really easily.
And if you can't get non-poached seeds, don't get seeds. Every person that supports poaching (and the Nepenthes seeds from around SE Asia definitely are poached) is contributing to the issue, no matter the supposed rationale. You don't buy, the poacher doesn't get the money from you, and they will find some other way to source, and if enough people simply say "no," eventually it will not be the "well, someone else is going to buy them so I might as well" argument in place anymore and the poacher's hand will be forced. Supporting cultivated progeny can and will have an impact (especially at the point where those who are poaching realize they can make more money raising and protecting the plants; wildlife tourism can be huge for such novelties, both in actual habitat and nearby recreations in culture), and every change starts with one person changing.
Enough reports to the sites these things are listed on (like eBay) about illegal activities can also eventually change practices if enough people speak up and act. The world is no longer "well that government isn't doing anything so we can't;" every person potentially has a global voice, and global impact.
 
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Your "jamban" aren't jamban; dubia, inermis, or hybrids of either rather (and if the other "highland" seeds were bought off eBay, they probably aren't highland species, or possibly even species, at all; any actual species will also probably be poached, and so henceforth definitely should be avoided purchasing again). Most of the plants seen here are either typically rather adaptable plants, or the true highland ones do seem to be showing effects of higher heat than they like (anything with rajah involved, or species like N. mira are definitely going to scream if they don't get cold nights). Certainly if you can set up a very cool location they may do fine, but there are very few true highland species that can be acclimated to any other climate.

Which highland species, in your opinion are good candidates to try? Obviously the risk is mine, but looking more for ideas from your growing experience - those that seem to care less about the cold than others.
 
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N. jamban does not have that growth pattern at all, and even when young starts very early on showing the tubby pitchers it's famed for on long tendrils...

This is a photo by Rob Cantley of seedlings of jamban from 2006 https://www.cpukforum.com/forum/ind...-a-new-species/&do=findComment&comment=144349 My plants are smaller, but I am not able to observe any incompatibilities. The smaller pitchers on these look similar to mine. Also the leaves.

I am not trying to be difficult, I am trying to understand, so that I may learn.

Shape of seedlings is also entirely species-dependent. Yes, more lowland species tend to have broader leaves with pitchers attached right at the tips than highlanders do, but this does not always hold true and a lot of the really common "intermediate" type plants can go either way really easily.

Good point. Noted.

And if you can't get non-poached seeds, don't get seeds. Every person that supports poaching (and the Nepenthes seeds from around SE Asia definitely are poached) is contributing to the issue, no matter the supposed rationale. You don't buy, the poacher doesn't get the money from you, and they will find some other way to source, and if enough people simply say "no," eventually it will not be the "well, someone else is going to buy them so I might as well" argument in place anymore and the poacher's hand will be forced. Supporting cultivated progeny can and will have an impact (especially at the point where those who are poaching realize they can make more money raising and protecting the plants; wildlife tourism can be huge for such novelties, both in actual habitat and nearby recreations in culture), and every change starts with one person changing.
Enough reports to the sites these things are listed on (like eBay) about illegal activities can also eventually change practices if enough people speak up and act. The world is no longer "well that government isn't doing anything so we can't;" every person potentially has a global voice, and global impact.

I have actually worked with organizations that combat poaching and such on the ground level. Working with forest dwelling tribal populations, etc (such would actually also be the people collecting seeds for the ebay sellers over there). The "well someone is going to buy them" argument is very real, I assure you. Me not buying them will only mean a few thousand dollars of a difference to my pocket buying nursery grown plants and getting them shipped to India - IF I find sellers willing to ship to India selling them to begin with. This is more inexpensive to type than it is to execute. And I am the one who has been spending for years. I know what I am talking about. Try the sale/trade offers here. How many ship out of US/Europe?

It won't stop those seeds from being sold, regardless. Someone will indeed buy them, including many members of online communities like this one. At best, they won't honestly say where they got the seeds from and not talk about it, so that they don't look bad among the other CP growers they want respect from or pretend that they didn't know the seeds were wild collected. You can't stop poaching like that. Not even one non-buyer at a time. The bulk of the seeds will actually get sold to rank beginners buying for curiosity because they want to grow plants that look cool like the photos found online, not realizing the reality of just what it takes to get to that stage, and the time. Those people you can't even touch with warnings, because they don't even have any idea that the seed could be wild collected.

You are serious about combating poaching, the best route to take is to file a police complaint using conservation related laws, evidence of sales and so on. A lot of poachers usually have political connections that let them still get away, but seed sellers probably aren't exactly ivory smugglers, so it could work in this case. You can't guard plants in the wild 24/7, you can't prevent people from buying what is on sale. Two choke points are getting the poacher with the money trail nailing identity and filing cases against eBay for wild seed smuggling. You won't be able to do anything to ebay, but could probably get a court to force them to take the listings down - that will hit the business.

On the buyer end, the only thing that will really work is availability of plants that take time and gamble out of messing with those seeds. That too will not work where importing plants is not easy.
 
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You are serious about combating poaching, the best route to take is to file a police complaint using conservation related laws, evidence of sales and so on. A lot of poachers usually have political connections that let them still get away, but seed sellers probably aren't exactly ivory smugglers, so it could work in this case. You can't guard plants in the wild 24/7, you can't prevent people from buying what is on sale. Two choke points are getting the poacher with the money trail nailing identity and filing cases against eBay for wild seed smuggling. You won't be able to do anything to ebay, but could probably get a court to force them to take the listings down - that will hit the business.

You'd be surprised how much you can do from the US itself. You can file a complaint against ebay in the US using conservation laws. US courts will force ebay to take those seeds off or implement requirements for proof of parent plants in cultivation or something when selling nepenthes seeds. They are required to uphold law, after all. And it is international laws for at least some of the seeds, in which case ebay can't dodge with simply not offering those seeds in the US. You can take down sales worldwide.

If you are that passionate about conserving those seeds, I would recommend this route. Or if you can get someone to act on your behalf in the countries poaching is happening... but that will be harder and more expensive. Chances are extremely high that even if all the seeds poached aren't covered by international laws, Ebay will take them down to clean up its image.

But you will definitely make history on nepenthes conservation if you can pull it off. It could be better to convince some organization or large CP business to back it. ICPS could also be interesting.

Don't ask me why I don't do it since I have the bright ideas. Right now, on the legal front, my hands are full trying to prevent the govt arbitrarily stripping off the citizenship of lakhs of Indians in a full blown Nazi move among loads of really serious wrongs against humans going on. My "fighting resources" are overloaded. Protecting seeds in a distant country is not even on the list.

I will help how I can if you attempt this (not sure what I could do from another country), but I can't take it on myself.
 
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In order of replies:
1. Sincerely, just about any plant that is actually a strictly highland species is not one I would suggest trying. Those plants with broad altitudinal distributions and thus classified "intermediate" plants would be better to start, then species like the relatively "low-elevation" highlanders like N. ventricosa, sibuyanensis, maxima, robcantleyi might be next; some have success with plants like hamata and edwardsiana but I would not spend large amounts of money on one before less expensive species are thriving. I would not spend money on anything more picky until other plants have been thriving for a while.

2. The link you gave gives evidence to my point; those plants look nothing like yours beyond the natural similarities due to jamban, inermis, and dubia all being in the same species group and relatively closely related. The pitcher shape is different, the leaves are on yours more ovular lanceolate than the oblanceolate shape of jamban, and the stocky stem characteristic yours has doesn't show in the link. Should the stems on yours start blushing red, that's another key trait of either inermis or dubia.

3. The cost to you should not factor, period, in the ethical or legal issues with purchasing poached seeds. There are several CP sources that ship worldwide and relatively cheaply, with all the permits available needed for their end as well, and of the two that come in right off the top of my head (Wistuba and BestCarnivorousPlants) they have the majority of CP species between them that one might want to try, and if one does the wise thing and buys a couple, makes sure they are actually doing well in one's conditions, and then order more then one can also start to captive-propagate those species and build a local source for them so that others don't have the issue/temptation of not having anything other than illegal sources to go for. Should you happen to be caught by government authorities for breaking not only import/export laws, but also endangered species regulations and CITES, the cost of that fine might not leave you with a difference of a few or even a few hundred bucks, but potentially thousands, tens of thousands, or even jail time (we've got the articles on this site to show it happens, and can be nasty. And every country has regulations along these lines, not just here in the US).
Also, if you don't already have a perfect environment to raise especially the typically critically endangered highland species that everyone wants and are the most targeted (ie. edwardsiana, macrophylla, jacquelineae, aristolochioides, inermis, tenuis, etc.), then it's a potential massive waste, not only supporting an illegal process but removing possibly critical new generations from the wild, new genetic variation from that wild population, failing to maintain potentially valuable new clones and localities in cultivation to help the captive propagation system, and certainly not helping remove the issue of availability to those like in your area who may or may not have access to getting them elsewhere. If you are already strapped with time and expenses fighting other issues, trying to raise a bunch of picky little plants from seed is also going to become a lot more expensive for you long before it could have any benefit.
I can't take the time to outline every single issue I have with any claim about how it's in any way good to purchase those seeds, but I flatly can't agree with any reason for doing so.
Concerning filing complaints and monitoring sites, attempting to change regulations and laws and so on, I may not have much reach yet myself, but that's among the places I hope to build my own business toward (starting with, if I can't afford a legal plant, I simply don't get it yet and focus on propagating and selling what I do have until I have space and money to afford the new plant, and work on educating others where I can to act in responsible manners as well), and I am a member of communities that have people who do police those sites and alert us so that illegal posts can be flagged and taken down, people who do go out to assess populations and assign appropriate protective statuses to them, those who have the leverage to petition governments etc. to increase repercussions for poaching, educate on value of conservation, etc. Attempts have started, but every person who continues to help the underhanded trade hampers those attempts already in place.
 
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In order of replies:
1. Sincerely, just about any plant that is actually a strictly highland species is not one I would suggest trying. Those plants with broad altitudinal distributions and thus classified "intermediate" plants would be better to start, then species like the relatively "low-elevation" highlanders like N. ventricosa, sibuyanensis, maxima, robcantleyi might be next; some have success with plants like hamata and edwardsiana but I would not spend large amounts of money on one before less expensive species are thriving. I would not spend money on anything more picky until other plants have been thriving for a while.

I thought I mentioned this. 3 x ventricosa, 4 x reinwardtiana(HL), several hybrids involving intermediates/highlanders like robcantleyi x veitchii(HL), mirabilis var globosa x hamata, etc (there are others, just mentioning off the top of my head) are doing well for over a year now. There are even more who have been doing well for over six months, but not a year yet. I am not exactly fond of throwing away money on expensive plants unless I think the gamble makes sense. Heck the mira survived our crazy summer outside the flow of mist and getting direct sunlight for three months! Literally survived on the ambient humidity from the misters and no cooling. That is why it is looking like that, but it is ALIVE anyway. I had thought I had a rajah x veitchii thriving for over a year at least when I spent money on more highlanders, but that is probably not a rajah x veitchii, though I did dig up old photos of the same plant with more rajah like leaves and tubbier pitchers, so I'm now wondering if I have the wrong plant or something in my growing conditions causes it to grow differently.

Regardless, I am not going on a thoughtless acquisition spree.

For the most part, fatalties happen within a week of arrival. Some more if they never manage to acclimatize (but this has been thankfully rare since the misters). Frankly, it is the same story with lowlanders too. I have a merrilliana with just two leaves since the last month or more, while a burbidgeae x veitchii (HL) that came with it is putting out new leaves. Go figure. Northiana died. Flat out. Just refused to acclimatize at all. Dead within a day or two - probably came in infected or something. Same happened with a sibuyanensis x robcantleyi. Arrived with relatively minor damage, potted it up, it started going black immediately, dead. One lowland, another intermediate/highland cross. Both similar cost. Same result.

The brutal summer has passed. Going forward, it is monsoon, then October can get hot, but nights are cooler, then winter, by next summer, I'll be living somewhere that I can cool MUCH better than my current balcony. So, in other words, with any luck, things are set to get easier to grow cool loving plants. That is why I am attempting it now.

I'm pretty certain that any plants I'm killing, I'm not doing it because of temperatures at this point, which is why I'm trying to push boundaries. I can't move to a cooler place. If I am to grow these fascinating plants, I can prepare to my best ability and give it my best shot. If it fails, so be it.

2. The link you gave gives evidence to my point; those plants look nothing like yours beyond the natural similarities due to jamban, inermis, and dubia all being in the same species group and relatively closely related. The pitcher shape is different, the leaves are on yours more ovular lanceolate than the oblanceolate shape of jamban, and the stocky stem characteristic yours has doesn't show in the link. Should the stems on yours start blushing red, that's another key trait of either inermis or dubia.

Ah got it. The possibility of natural hybrids was mentioned. Probably because they saw the same things you did. Thanks. I like them anyway :D and maybe if they are hybrids, they will grow easier for me, so probably better like this.

3. The cost to you should not factor, period, in the ethical or legal issues with purchasing poached seeds. There are several CP sources that ship worldwide and relatively cheaply, with all the permits available needed for their end as well, and of the two that come in right off the top of my head (Wistuba and BestCarnivorousPlants) they have the majority of CP species between them that one might want to try, and if one does the wise thing and buys a couple, makes sure they are actually doing well in one's conditions, and then order more then one can also start to captive-propagate those species and build a local source for them so that others don't have the issue/temptation of not having anything other than illegal sources to go for. Should you happen to be caught by government authorities for breaking not only import/export laws, but also endangered species regulations and CITES, the cost of that fine might not leave you with a difference of a few or even a few hundred bucks, but potentially thousands, tens of thousands, or even jail time (we've got the articles on this site to show it happens, and can be nasty. And every country has regulations along these lines, not just here in the US).
Also, if you don't already have a perfect environment to raise especially the typically critically endangered highland species that everyone wants and are the most targeted (ie. edwardsiana, macrophylla, jacquelineae, aristolochioides, inermis, tenuis, etc.), then it's a potential massive waste, not only supporting an illegal process but removing possibly critical new generations from the wild, new genetic variation from that wild population, failing to maintain potentially valuable new clones and localities in cultivation to help the captive propagation system, and certainly not helping remove the issue of availability to those like in your area who may or may not have access to getting them elsewhere. If you are already strapped with time and expenses fighting other issues, trying to raise a bunch of picky little plants from seed is also going to become a lot more expensive for you long before it could have any benefit.
I can't take the time to outline every single issue I have with any claim about how it's in any way good to purchase those seeds, but I flatly can't agree with any reason for doing so.
Concerning filing complaints and monitoring sites, attempting to change regulations and laws and so on, I may not have much reach yet myself, but that's among the places I hope to build my own business toward (starting with, if I can't afford a legal plant, I simply don't get it yet and focus on propagating and selling what I do have until I have space and money to afford the new plant, and work on educating others where I can to act in responsible manners as well), and I am a member of communities that have people who do police those sites and alert us so that illegal posts can be flagged and taken down, people who do go out to assess populations and assign appropriate protective statuses to them, those who have the leverage to petition governments etc. to increase repercussions for poaching, educate on value of conservation, etc. Attempts have started, but every person who continues to help the underhanded trade hampers those attempts already in place.

I hear you. I may not agree, but I respect your intent.

About depriving potential people who can give highlanders better conditions.... well, new ground isn't broken by coloring between lines. This temperature racism is a bit .... :( Reading here on the forums, plenty of people growing highlanders in cool places have a better kill rate than me. Not fair that they can try but not me.

Edit: above is only half a joke. Do you really think people growing in cool places are able to grow all the highlanders they buy to maturity?
 
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Wait. Species under CITES? Those aren't the seeds I purchased. I haven't purchased any poached plants to the best of my knowledge, unless you think reputed nurseries are in the smuggling business.

Edit: Wistuba doesn't actually offer shipping to India. I had an email conversation with Andreas and he was game to give it a shot if I was. Haven't got around to it. The bulk of my plants (including macrophylla and jamban) are from BCP (but not seeds). The Alisaputrana is from BE and along with several others is purchased via Roraima (who also ship to India). the "rajah x veitchii" and some others are from CZ, but I don't trust them anymore. Mira and rajah-to-come is from "exceptional_plants" on Ebay. Edwardsiana is TC. All proofs of purchase present.

Feel free to report any of my plant sources for selling endangered species. Good luck.

I think you have a pretty low opinion of me. Most of the interpretations are rather.... in bad light, so to say.

Edit2: do report the germination rates you get from seeds you buy from the "reputed nurseries"
 
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[MENTION=9012]hcarlton[/MENTION] For what it is worth, here's an opportunity for a grower to brainstorm an interesting growing challenge, and you're wasting the opportunity criticizing me. There is a possibility to test experimental ideas at zero cost to yourself in an environment drastically different from yours. You seem more prejudiced that I DON'T do it than interested in the plants or growing and keen to see opportunity to criticize and ignore indications to the contrary. For eg "anything other than illegal sources to go for" - if you'd even paused to think a moment, you yourself have engaged with me on the subject of that dubious rajah x veitchii - is there a way to obtain it "illegally"? I've talked of numerous hybrids. Do you seriously think I don't buy from the nurseries and someone managed to poach a "sibuyanensis x robcantleyi" for me from some jungle?

Where is this hostility coming from?

I'm more interested in if your vast experience of growing plants well has actually resulted in insights on what someone could do or don't in my situation. Surely if you care for them so much, you could trouble yourself to think up how to save them now that the poor things are already my victims? Not like telling me how unwise it is will turn back time and make the plants vanish from my balcony to some cold terrarium. Does your experience inform you on things that help or harm? That is my interest.

Let us start with a clean slate or finish up any more disapproval you have and be done with it and start with a clean slate.
 
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As my olive branch, I offer that you don't need a lot of reach to crack down on the online sellers. Just some persistence. Simple determined email writing to conservation authorities will do the trick. A good strategy is to write to the official email (Edit: try lawenforcement@fws.gov - this is US, so not sure if they care about other countries, but one trick you can do is cc authorities from the countries the seeds are collected from and report that Ebay is supporting these illegal sales to the US), and then use the Information Act (I think that is what it is called in the US) to follow up asking what action was taken. An online petition addressed to Ebay signed by growers from several countries can also be effective. Needless to say, you can add my name to it as a grower from India. I can also try and find lawyers for you in the US who will take up such causes pro-bono - may be hard - I'm not familiar with the US legal scene, but can try to find out through people, etc - legal route will probably be the most headache for you and the email writing and follow up route will be the easiest. This isn't such a big thing. You don't need reach. Govt departments have to respond to tips of information from citizens.

I am happy to help you END the poached seeds scene to the best of my ability. I am not happy to not buy something at great cost to myself, when it will make no dent to the end result.
 
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Location
Greeley, CO, USA
Confirming that a plant is doing well in one's conditions when it comes to Nepenthes equals seeing good growth for exceeding a year as slow as they grow and can react to unwelcome conditions; with reinwardtiana (even highland locales have capacity to withstand more intermediate-lowland conditions naturally) and ventricosa doing okay for that length, then moving up to the next level of more picky plants now is appropriate, but then should take a year or so with a new batch (especially if any show struggling issues, smaller leaves, burning etc.) before the next are brought in (mirabilis globosa x hamata is at best considered lowland-intermediate to true intermediate as well, with globosa being a true lowlander and hamata a semi-tolerant highland species, so not one that should be unexpected to do fairly well in hot regions; same applies to most any lowland/highland cross, as lowland traits often help tolerance along with hybrid vigor, so they will nearly always be easier). Species like stenophylla, ephippiata, pilosa, or other species in the bottom-middle rungs of true highland habitats could be a next try. Any that die within a week or two almost certainly had issues to start with and probably shouldn't really be considered in figuring if conditions are truly appropriate. Once the somewhat more fussy species are doing well, then moving on to truly expensive, truly highland or ultra-highland species is recommended (the high peak species like mira, attenboroughii, rajah, edwardsiana -which might be an exception, but is a costly one to experiment on- are included).

Note: every single Nepenthes species is protected under CITES Appendices I and II. Restrictions apply to all but artificial hybrids, and TC plants are exempt; permits for otherwise artificially propagated plants typically covers the rest. The plants you have I wasn't pointing note at and did not mention related to this (save examples of seeds I've seen offered of same species that were also poached), but the seed acquisitions such as "kinabaluensis" and "macrophylla" (which, if actually those taxa, were also taken out of national parks, breaking even more laws). As you've purchased from places like BCP, and is Andreas is willing to try shipping to your area, those taxa are carried by them too, and they are also more likely to have clones already selected that will be more apt to thrive in artificial conditions. Wild seeds, far less guarantee. And, I was saying avoid making such purchases again; just about everyone has made that folly at least once in the hobby, the avoiding it moving forward is the stressed point and the only thing I said in my first post on it.

And I'll try to make it clear: it's the action I am displeased about (and actions can be avoided or amended), not the person. No, I don't have a low opinion of you, and I am sorry if the words written say otherwise (I am a blunt, to the point writer and am still working on that aspect; I sometimes come across worse than I ever want to and I have been fighting this), and I am sorry if the posts come across as trying to suggest getting rid of all the plants you have, not the intent either. Avoiding getting other possibly finicky or highly valuable conservation-wise plants until the ones you have now are certain to be thriving is the rec I had concerning trying highlanders in general, what was trying to be stressed. What I've gained in my own experience as well as watching others trying to grow plants in places those plants don't normally want to grow is that it's an uphill battle to get them to do well there, as they need those cooler days, much cooler nights or otherwise eventually fizzle. Even some big nurseries here have dropped trying to grow certain plants just because where they are located never will permit it, but a smaller space that can be modified far enough might work. The two big points though are still: cool days, cool nights, and whatever it takes to make that happen. If you succeed with this, and plants grow well, then figuring how to propagate and get them spread to others with specifics for your location is the next step.
 
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
171
Location
Nalasopara (near Bombay/Mumbai)
:)

Thanks. I get your point. TBH, I didn't realize that all nepenthes were covered under CITES. I found rajah and khasiana on it. Maybe one way to do the larger community some good is to publish a list of the legal status of various plants. Conservation/endangered status is known for many. But legal status. If you find what you believe to be collected seeds, what to check for. Species, legal collections, not endangered plants, etc. Local laws, international laws, etc.

Blunt is fine and your questioning is valid and I did answer it to the best of my ability. It was more that you didn't speak about the growing which was my interest that was missing, I guess.

I guess it comes down to rolling up my sleeves and giving those fellows the best growing I can.

On a tangent, a lot of laws formed in the stratosphere, and realities on the ground are often in different worlds altogether. I don't even pretend to have the foggiest on ground realities where the nepenthes are collected. It could be interesting to connect with forest related activists in those countries to see how important seed collecting is, its legal status, threats and so on. Also the kind of people who do the seed collecting. Who they are, how they interact with the forests...

To give an example, India is allegedly interested in preserving its forests. All that it amounts to in practical action is oppression of the forest dwellers, while deforestation, selling vast swathes to private interests and so on goes unchecked. A lot fo forest produce is made/collected "illegally" by the forest dwellers. But here's the thing. They have lived there for generations, also tending to the plants which have thrived under their care and the "collecting" is more symbiotic than parasitic, so to say. Evictions of those people moved them to wholesale destitution and irreparable poverty, while clearing the way for the poachers, deforesters of various breeds, and so on. A lot of endangered forest produce is more at risk from "development" and pollution.

To take an even bigger step back, seeing humans as one of the species on the planet, so to say (as opposed to our current view as God and responsible for determining what happens to every other species), I suppose we have also turned into a way various seeds propagate far and wide (or get stolen and wasted/eaten) :p

I am not saying this is what happens in those countries. What I am saying is that I don't know, and this is just one example of why I don't immediately read a rule and jump to back it up. I guess I see a lot of greys.

Regardless, I doubt I'll be spending more on highlanders unless I get notable success with these. Seeds or otherwise.
 
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
171
Location
Nalasopara (near Bombay/Mumbai)
For eg, saving the plants and preventing "human propagation" so to say is no guarantee that those plants living in a delicate ecology aren't going to die from say... climate change or groundwater pollution. I agree that they must be saved, but do we actually know that taking those seeds is resulting in declining populations? Heck, I fight to not waste seeds opening a packet in a breezeless room. Is it even possible to take out all the nepenthes seeds from a forest? Do we even have enough nepenthes seed buyers in the whole world to justify the expense of the number of regular visits to the forest it would take for the sellers?

Again, this is an example of where my mind goes in order to form an informed opinion on the subject. As opposed to 'small population in the wild, come down on the heads of anyone who actually loves and wants the damn things'. How many people who actually live in forests shape conservation laws?

Another example, campanulata. It was presumed extinct when forest fires decimated the only known population and there were no specimens in collections either. Would someone having sold those seeds on ebay and those plants growing in random greenhouses, windowsills, balconies and terrariums then be a good thing or bad? Then a new population was found, then another. It could just as easily have been extinct. And there ARE many species gone extinct.

I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing for species that are found in only one place to be "human propagated" far and wide - unless we see decreased populations, lack of young trees, etc and it can be attributed to most/all the seeds being stolen.

It is just an alternative view. AND an uninformed one, I say myself, since these are all things I consider but not confirmed facts. This is not an excuse, merely some thoughts I have on the subject.

And of course the flip side is true as well. Drosera regia/magnifica/etc would be gone if that tiny population were stripped of seeds regularly.
 
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
171
Location
Nalasopara (near Bombay/Mumbai)
So... A funny thing happened. I was looking at my seedlings with a magnifying glass (don't ask) when I realized that there were several without pitchers!!! I was like "don't tell me you highland snobs you won't even grow your freaking seedling pitchers for me in this glorious weather...." I set off to examine how many agents [MENTION=9012]hcarlton[/MENTION] had planted in my balcony :p

D_MV07jU8AEnZ7R


Only to realize the poor darlings aren't pitcherless at all. They are trying to grow teeny tiny tendrils to make their pitchers on and my lowly lowland self didn't even recognize what was happening. Are you frickin kidding me? Highlanders want to make tendrils for their third pitcher? Whoa. Surreal. So. Much. Delight.

D_MVxb-U8AEiAZD


awww....

Photos are bad, but these guys are tiny.

Edit: Some seedlings are forming tendrils on their second pitcher itself. What sorcery is this?
 
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